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Originally Posted by dougmusr  It is obvious from verses 37-39 that Jesus had no intent of denying His deity. He again claimed to be one with the Father and remained in danger as a result.
Jn 10:37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him." 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."
Also, I would think it would be impossible for two objects to fully contain each other unless they had identical form. |
Really?? Then I guess you'll have a very hard time explaining this one!!
John 14:20 “At that day you (i.e. the disciples) will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.” I've shown that John 10:29-33 does nothing in the way of proving Christ's divinity since Jesus defends himself by pointing out the metaphorical usage of 'gods', and now I've shown that John 10:38 cannot be taken as proof either since Jesus says the exact same thing about his disciples. Quote:
Jeramiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
This verse in no way indicates Jeramial had a pre-earthly existance, it rather describes God's omnscience.
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Jeremiah was 'known', 'sanctified' and 'ordained as a prophet' before he was even formed in the womb. It's not me who's inventing this interpretation. In the Jewish commentary of Rabbi Rashi it says:
When I had not yet formed you in the womb, etc. Since the days of the first man. The Holy One, blessed be He, showed Adam each generation and its prophets.
That is actually exactly what Muslims believe as mentioned in the Qur'an Surah Al-'Araf. Even if you want to take it as only God's knowledge of the future, then his pre-human existence would be his existence in the knowledge of God and there's no reason why the same standard couldn't apply to Jesus.
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Jn 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
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Yes, before the coming of Prophet Abraham, Jesus pbuh existed with a pre-human existence. Jesus is essentially saying that before Abraham was created he was appointed as a Prophet by God, just as we read of Jeremiah above. Thus, he is claiming his legitamacy to a people who pride themselves on their ancestry to Abraham.
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I don't know the ancient languages, but the reaction of the Jewish leaders leaves no doubt as to the interpretation of "I AM", whether or not modern translations indulge in "textual games-playing".
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Matthew 23:37 tells us that the Jews stoned and killed other Prophets that were sent to them:
Jesus says, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the
prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee... Jesus claimed to be a prophet and recieved the same treatment, just as Prophet Muhammad pbuh was met by a barrage of stones when he conveyed his prophethood to the tribe of Thaqîf. The prophets never claimed to be god but they were stoned. Quote:
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First, Christ could in fact be probing for and challenging the the beliefs of the individual.
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But then he should have let the man answer his question. Instead he continued by saying, "There is none good but one, that is God". If I were to accept your response the conversation should have flowed like this:
"Good master"
"Why callest thou me good?"
"Because you're God."
"Bingo!"
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Second, the Quran indicates Jesus was righteous, which I would assume means good.
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It depends what you mean. Either way, it is significant that Jesus disapproves of the term for himself and affirms it for God.
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What are the beggining and ending dates of "the time of Jesus"?
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When he began preaching to the people, until when he was taken up by God.