Thread: Shariah Law
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czgibson
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Default Re: Shariah Law - 08-20-2005

Greetings to everyone,
I'm sorry I've been away for a while; I've been very busy with work and therefore unable to contribute as much as I would like.

Ansar, your defence of the Shariah law system is very strong and clear - I think the reasons for our disagreement stem from very different world-views. I'll try and explain what I mean by looking at the points you make.
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Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I think this objection is very weak. In a system of perfect justice there is equality and fairness. Killing in defense or justice is incomparable to murders and unjust killings. I can give several examples, and I'd like your input on each one.
I admit I was being glib. As it stands, the objection I gave needs several qualifications. Let's look at your examples:

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A police officer arrives at the scene of a crime and sees a villian firing bullets into a screaming crowd. Can the officer kill him? Is he a hypocrite for doing so?
In my view, if killing one person in such a situation can prevent the killing of many others, and if simply wounding or restraining the villain is not sufficient to stop him, then that killing is permissible as a last resort. Police officers killing suspects in the field of duty is clearly different to legally administered killing, which is where my main objection lies.

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Someone rapes and then brutally murders your mother. Just imagine that for a moment and think seriously about your feelings then. Let's be honest, what punishment do you think he should recieve in order for justice to be served?
I think murderers and rapists should be locked up for the rest of their lives, with as much solitary confinement as is possible. That is the punishment I would want someone to face if they committed the crime you mentioned. I think death is quite an easy escape for a criminal, in some ways. It's inhumane to kill someone as a punishment (even if they are a horrendous criminal), but with death their suffering is over very quickly.

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If you can picture that, picture warcriminals like Hitler who slaughtered millions of people - what should his punishment be? Is even death sufficient to deliver justice to the one who inflicted so much torture on innocent people?
With questions like this, I don't think it is ever possible to bring justice to the victims. After someone like Hitler has committed their atrocities, I don't see what good killing them would do.

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If someone commits first degree murder, then in a truly just society they should be executed. The only reason why Christians don't recieve criticism on these points is because they defer all punishments to the next life. But eternal suffering in Hellfire is much more severe than execution in this life. Why is it that there is so little protests against the belief in such a drastic punishment in the next life in comparison to the protests raised for a just punishment in this life.
There's little protest from me on this point, since I see no reason to believe there is an afterlife. Britain is nominally a Christian country, but as you know, many people say they are Christians but do not actually know very much about their faith at all. Belief in the afterlife is in decline, but strangely there are many people who only believe in heaven, and not hell. I think the fact that many people, even many of those who call themselves Christians, do not believe in the afterlife in the same corporeal, physical way you do perhaps explains the anomaly you perceive here.

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These are concrete statistics here, Callum. There is no doubt when the UN conducts a survey and the country implementing Islamic law has the fewest burglaries, it demonstrates which is the most successful law is this regard.
I've no doubt that the Shariah punishment for theft acts as an extremely powerful deterrent, I just think there have to be more humane ways of dealing with people. If you make a law saying everyone who uses chewing gum will be executed, then no-one will eat chewing gum. The punishment has to fit the crime - and I could not respect a system of law that entitled itself to mutilate people, no matter what they have done. Mutilation of another person is clearly a very unethical act, so even though you say it actually doesn't occur very often in Saudi Arabia, the point is it should not even be a legal option.

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There really is not much that I need to say here since I think that banning of intoxicants are obviously good, and your views are not even reflective of the current western laws, anyway.
Yes, my views don't reflect the current laws in Britain, but they do reflect the opinion of a huge proportion of the British public. The 1971 Misuse of Drugs Act is famously Britain's most unpopular law, the most regularly broken law, and the law that is least enforced by the Police.

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In the west they tried alcohol prohibition and other laws on intoxicants but because they didn't have the internal aspect in their system, it naturally failed. Contrast that to the time of the Prophet Muhammad saws, when he commanded the arabs who were the biggest drinkers of alcohol to abandon this practice, his followers obeyed immediately and the streets were flowing with alcohol.
Yes, the prohibition of alcohol was a massive failure, and actually increased the consumption of alcohol, and also increased the danger involved because impurities were allowed to creep into the strong homemade brews that people resorted to. This is analogous to the current prohibition on drugs, which keeps the supply of drugs in the hands of criminals, many of whom are not averse to cutting rat-poison and other dangerous substances in with the drug to boost their profits. In an ideal world, if drugs were supplied by medical professionals working to fixed standards of dosage and quality, drug taking would be safer, and drug user numbers would decrease. (I should point out that by saying "drugs" here, I'm making a generalisation. There are many different types of drugs, as everybody knows, from aspirin to crack cocaine; I'm simply going over the basics of my position.)

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I have many non-muslim colleagues, including atheists, who do not drink at all and would approve of a ban because they know of its harmful effects both on the body as well as on society. It is what devastates families and ruins the lives of innocent children. I think need for prohibition of such a vice is so self-evident that I don't really need to argue this point.
Alcoholic people can ruin families, but the vast majority of people who drink alcohol do not become alcoholics. To ban all users because of the susceptibilities of a few seems unjust to me. Plus in Britain, alcohol is part of the nation's tradition. There are clearly good and bad aspects of this, and there are good and bad ways of dealing with drunken behaviour, but I don't see the need for an outright ban.

With regards to your points about music and artworks, a fundamental concept for Western artists is complete freedom of expression. This is the only way that art can progress and actually come to life. In states where the content of artworks is monitored and censored by the state, art as such can no longer exist. What remains is art as propaganda, which is very different from art indeed. This does not mean that Islamic art is not beautiful and intricate, or that it lacks value, but that its main function is to impress the Islamic tradition on the mind of the viewer. Great works of art in the Western world have been made under the direct control of powerful people, but after a while such an approach tends to make the art world stagnate and become repetitive.

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How is the vicious slander of Islam and blasphemy equal to artwork?!
Artworks in the Western world have frequently been both vicious or blasphemous. Satire has relied on both of these things, and they have produced some of the great works of Western literature (for example, the works of Juvenal, Martial, Jonathan Swift, Ezra Pound, William Burroughs). Whether somebody is offended or not has nothing to do with the quality of the artwork. Everyone has the right not to like a painting, book or piece of music, but that doesn't mean the artist should be restricted from producing such works.

It's clear we're not going to agree on this, I think because we have very different views about many things in the world. Thank you for giving your justifications for your views; I have now given mine.

Peace.

Last edited by czgibson; 08-20-2005 at 03:46 PM.
   
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