JAZAKALLAH KHAIR!!!

that clears a lot up

A really good post Mashaa Allaah! Jazaak Allaah Khayr

The ummah,unfortunately, is divided into two main creeds concerning this point.

1.The athari creed of the salafu-saalih as propounded by Abu jafar at-Tahawee himself, Abu hanifah, Maalik, Thawri, Uyainah, Hammad bin Zayd, Ahmad, Bukharee, ad-Darimee, Ibn Abi Zayd, Abdur-Razzaq, Ibn Ma'in, Daraqutnee, Ishaaq, Ibnul-Mubarak, Shafi'ee, Ali Ibnul-Madinee, Abdur-Rahman bin Mahdi, Zuhri, Hasan al-Basri, at-tabari, al-Lalikaa'ee, Shaykhul-Islam Imaamul-Aimah Ibnul-Khuzaimah, Abu Zurah, Ibn Abi hatim, andAbu Haatim ar-Razi, al-Awzaa'ee and a multiplicity of relied upon Imaams of sunnah and

2.the ashari/jahmi/mutazili creed of the khalafu-taalih as invented by our unforutnate muslim comrade like Abu Muhammad ibnul-Kullab al-Mutakalim, ibn Asaakir, Ibn Furak, Fakhru-deen ar-Razi and others

So what is its understanding as was reported fromalamaah Abdur-Rahman al-Khumayyis

The Explanation:

Allah, The Glorified and Exalted is Exalted and removed from any restrictions or limitations. There are no restrictions for Allah, restricting and confining Him, and there are no limitations for Him. Of course this means that Allah, Glorified and Exalted is He, does not permeate His creation and is not united with His creation. Indeed, He is The Glorified and Exalted is far from being on the level of His creation. And indeed He negates for Himself any supporting parts or limbs for these are tools of the servants, that which helps them benefit themselves and well as repel harm, and Allah, The Exalted, is far above this.
This is what we know from what is mentioned in the Qur’an of Allah’s Names and Attributes, but we say: Indeed the meanings of them (i.e., Allah’s Names and Attributes) in truth is what is based on clear evidence and we understand this meaning and we affirm it for Allah upon what was intended. We do not, however, try to delve into the kaifiyyah, for indeed it the knowledge of it belongs exclusively to Allah. And similarly, He (Allah) Glorified and Exalted is not limited to the six directions like the rest of created things. Of course, we do not understand this to mean that this is a total negation of direction. Indeed He, The Glorified and Exalted is in the Most Exalted and uppermost direction but what was intended by the statement is that He, Glorified and Exalted in not bound or restricted by directions nor overtaken by them like His creation.
Synopsis:
Indeed, Allah, Most High will be seen on the Day of Rising with clear vision and the seeing of Him by the believers is true even though their vision of Him does not and can not encompass Him and this is inherent in the texts of this chapter. And it is an obligation upon the Muslim to refrain from attempting to interpret (these affairs) and to refrain from the speech of the people who negate (these affairs) and to know that Allah, The Blessed and Most High is far removed from being similar to His creatures.


So this point was meant upon the idea that the mujassimah limited Allah to creational aspects. The point was never to destroy the idea that Allah is in reality over the Throen.

And that is where the umah divides over. because our salaf did not view that Allah's being over the Throne the way Alah Himself affirmed as being "somehting bound by duirections"

But when the neo-platonic aristolian arguements marred the creedal aspects of our religion to some of hte adherents of Islam, they by default of htis foriegn understanding interpreted the texts pertaining to Allah's being above to be "something bound by limits". So thus they fell into the unfortunate mishap of interpreting our islamic texts according to aristotelian logic rather than the actual islamic manhaj of "we hear and obey".

So therefore to keep within the bounds of what Imaam at-tahawee meant, then it is safe and accepted, but if his statement is used to describe that by holding that Allah is literally above the throne as He said He was in His book, then this itself is kufr of which he Imaams made explicit takfeer thereof.

here are its reminder

from Abu haneefah himself
when asked of his opinion of the one who says, ‘I do not know whether Allah is above the heavens or on the earth.’ - “He has disbelieved, because Allah says, “The Most Merciful rose above the Throne,” and His Throne is above His seven heavens.’ He was then asked , ‘what if he said that Allah is above His Throne but he does not know whether the Throne is in the heavens or on the earth?’ He said, ‘He has disbelieved, because He has denied that He is above the heavens, And whosoever denied that He is above the heavens has disbelieved.” (‘Sharh Usul I'tiqaad Ahlus Sunnah’ of al-Laalikaaee (d.414AH), ‘al-Uluww’ of adh- Dhahabee, also ‘Sharh Aqueedah at-Tahaawiyyah’ of ibn Abee al-Izz al-Hanafee).

and this is in the sharh of the tahawiyyah by the Imaam Ibn abil-Izz of which I will get his sharh on this actual point number 38 bi ithnillah

Imaam Abu Sa’eed Uthmaan ad-Daarimee – rahimahullaah – says, “Then the Scholars before us and after us all have Ijmaa (consensus), that when we seek help from Allah or when we call him, we raise and spread our hands towards the sky and our sight is also upwards. We do not call upon him by looking below us in the earth, behind or in front, to the right or the left. We concentrate towards the sky, because everyone knows that Allah is above them, and everyone who prays says in prostration, “Praise be to Allah the Most High” (‘Radd Alal Jahmiyyah’)

Muhammad bin Yusuf said (one of the teachers of Bukhaaree), ‘the one who says that Allah is not over His Throne is a kaafir. And the one who thinks that Allah did not speak to Moses is a kaafir’ (Bukhaaree's, ‘Khalq Af’aal Ebaad’).

Imam ibn Khuzaimah said, “Whoever does not acknowledge that Allah is above His 'Arsh, above His seven heavens, and that He is separated from His creatures, is a Kafir, (unbeliever). Such person must be ordered to repent and disavow his belief, or else he must be beheaded and thrown on a garbage dump so that neither Ahlul-Qiblah (the Muslims) nor Ahludth-dthimmah (non-Muslims living in Muslim lands) be annoyed by the foul odor of his carcass.”

Imaam al-Awzaa'ee who said
“We and all the remaining tabi’ say that Allah is above his throne, we believe in whatever the sunnah describes about His (swt) attributes.” [Mukhtasar Al ‘Uluw p137 - Imam Dhahabi, & Al Asmaa Wal Sifaat – Baihaqi, & Fath ul Baari Sharh Al Bukhari – ibn Hajar v13 p417]

Imam Qutaibah bin Sa’eed was a great tabi’ tabi’ (b.150H - d. 240H), he said,
“Allah is above his throne, that is the saying of the imams in Islam and Ahl Al Sunnah Wal Jama’ah, we believe Allah is above the seven heavens above his throne, the way Allah said, “Al Rahman is above his throne.””


So when quoting such narrations one must make clear himself to the people what they are upon, are they upon the intent of the imaams or are they in opposition to them

asalamu alaikum

Is this like a salafi thing?

Jazakallah Khayr for the explanation Br. Al Izaaree. The following narrations are unrefutable proof of the Aqeedah of the Salaf:

The verse:
“They fear their Lord from above them”

The ‘min’ here cancels out ANY possibility of ta’wil.

The proofs for Allah’s literal elevation above His creation are too numerous to be denied:

1) “Then He rose over the throne” – as it occurs in many places in the Quran

2) “Do you feel secure from the one who is in the heavens” in two places

3) “To Him do ascend the good words and the good deeds”

4) “He plans the affairs from the heaven to the earth, then it will ascend to Him”

5) “The angels and the spirit ascend to Him”

6) “When Allah said: Isa, I will take you back and raise you up to Me”

7) “Rather, Allah raised him up to Him”

8) “(The Pharaoh said) O Haman! Build me a lofty palace, that I may attain the ways and means- The ways and means of (reaching) the heavens, and that I may mount up to the god of Moses: But as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!” Meaning: I believe Musa is lying when he tells me that there is a God in the heavens.

9) al-Bukhari’s narration that Zaynab used to say to the other wives of the Prophet: “You were married off by your families. I was married of by Allah from above the seven heavens”

10) Muslim’s famous narration about the Prophet asking the slave girl: Where is Allah? To which the slave girl responds: In the heavens. In response to this the Prophet says: Free her, for she is a believer. A Muslim slave girl puts you, the intellectual carrots, to shame!

11) The ascent of the Prophet – SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam – to the heavens, famously known as al-Isra wal-Mi’raj. Where did he go, if not UP TO THE HEAVENS?

12) The fact that Allah descends in the last third of the night to forgive, as explicitly mentioned in the ahadeeth.

13) The fact that the angels and His revelation, descend from Him. ‘We have sent down…’ is an often ‘blasphemous’ occurrence in the Quran.

14) The Hadeeth of Ibn Mas’ud about the day of judgement when Allah will gather the creation and everyone will be looking UP towards the heavens, waiting for Allah’s judgement. Al-Dhahabi declared it Hasan.

15) ‘Umar said: the order comes from here – pointing to the sky (sahih)

16) Ibn Mas’ud said: The Throne is above water, and Allah is above the throne. Nothing is hidden to him from your actions (Sahih)

17) ‘Aisha said: Allah knows, from above the Throne, that I did not like the killing of ‘Uthman. (Sahih)

18) Ibn ‘Abbas said: Allah was above His Throne before He had created anything (Sahih). He also said to ‘Aisha: Allah, from above the seven heavens, revealed the fact about your innocence. (Sahih)

19) Masruq would say whenever he related a hadeeth from ‘Aisha: I was informed by the truthful woman, beloved to Allah, the one who was declared innocent from above the seven heavens. (Sahih)

20) al-Dhahhak said: Allah is above His throne, whilst His knowledge is with them wherever they may be. (Sahih)

no dear brother. it is a

thing

I was merely making sure that the unintended meaning of what at-Tahawi stated was not what was taken to mean, but understood that its was not absolute,m but rather confined to the creational aspects of "direction.

And to further substantiate what i was accomplishing then this is what al-Qurtubi has to say about the Madhab of the Salaf:

"The early Salaf – may Allah be pleased with them – would not negate direction (jiha), nor would they utter such. Rather, they and the rest uttered in affirmation of that (i.e. direction) for Allah Ta’ala, as did utter His Book, and His Messengers informed – to his words: None from the Salaf al-Salih denied that Allah Ta’ala Rose over His Throne in reality (haqiqatan)"

He also says: "The most correct of the beliefs (adhar al-aqwal), although I do not subscribe to it nor do I prefer it, is what is manifest in the verses and traditions, and (the statements of) the noble and the excellent ones, that Allah Subhanahu is upon His Throne, as He informed in His Books, without kayf, separate from His creation. This is basically the Madhab of the Salaf al-Salih."

And this is the sad state unfortunately for al-Qurtubi, who was an ash'ari in some way, that he would thus fall into the ayaah 'they chose that which is worse for that which is better" because apparently from his words above, he clearly accepted that the stance of the salaf is "the most correct beleifs" and then says right after 'I do not prescribe nor prefer it" may Allah have mercy and sanctify his soul rahimahullah

Read, for example what Ibn Rushd al-Maliki has to say:

‘As for this Attribute, i.e. the belief in a direction (for Allah), then the people of Shari’a did not cease to affirm it, until the Mu’tazila and the latter Ash’arites negated it, such as Abul-Ma’ali (al-Juwayni) and those who followed him. He then said: ‘It has become obvious that the affirmation of direction (jiha) is obligatory, legally and intellectually..’
This is coming from Ibn Rushd the philosopher
so it is clear from all that has come that when the statement is made "he is not encompassed by the six directions" it is understood by the apparent wording itself that He is not "contained" as if He is not overcome with any of the directions. But if someone were to twist the statement to mean "Allah is not above His throne" then this is what I wished that no one would misinterpret from at-tahawi's words.

that is textually, both revelational wise and scholastic wise, there is a heap the size of uhood with regards to texts affirming His being "ABOVE" the Throne

As for intellectually, then it is understood that it is His creation that is subdued by direction (jihah) and not Him, and since the creation is that which is contained in a direction thenit follows that it cannot be be in connection with Allah from any side except that it is below.

that is why when al-Qurtubee said this

adh-Dhahabee said in reply in his al-uluw

So i hope that all of this was merely to serve in the protection o he correct understaning with reagrds to the issue at hand and not the philosophic mutazili aristotlian understanding.
that is all

asalamu alaikum

If only those who do Ta'wil of the Names and Attributes of Allaah understood this point. Anyway, Jazakallah Khayr for bringing this up. This was exactly the way of the Salaf. They affirmed what Allaah affirmed for Himself and they never questioned it or went into its kayfiyyah and they had the more knowledge to get into Ta'wil, but they didn't as the later groups did when they started doing their Ta'wil. So when these groups started coming out like the Jahmiyyah, Imams from the Salaf like Imam Ahmad and others had to take a stand against their heresies, and later on, Imams like Ibn Taymiyyah stood like a beacon of the Sunnah, may Allaah have mercy upon their souls. All praise is to Allaah for putting men like Imam Ahmad and Ibn Taymiyyah in this Ummah.

with due respect, Lets stick to Aqeedatu-Tahaawiyya and no bombardment of "quotes & quotes" in this thread and this not a topic for us to debate on.

The points mentioned in Aqeedatu-Tahaawiyya are quiet clear and distinguish Truth from falsehood, like pt. 38 did so.

may Allah forgive us and guide us all to the way of His true believers.

^ lol yeah Alhamdulillah, the truth is extremely clear from falsehood.

istikhara really helps

The posts about Ta'wil were split and moved into a new thread found here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...hat-tawil.html

And indeed, the truth is clear Alhamdullilah