explain marked bold please, for I do not understand it

So basically some people translate the word wali as saint? (Which is outrageous considering the connotations the word has in the English language!)

By the way, if someone who is strong in bid'ah appears to be able to do a miracle, it is not a miracle given to walis, it is from the shaytan.

This was mentioned in Ibn Tayymiyahs book which was linked to earlier.

Na'am, i personally feel that this was either a bad translation, or just an excuse to allow people to do what they do. Allaah knows best.

Akhi, there are those that make Dua' to these saints and make sajdah to their graves. I can post videos if you wish. Yet these are the very same people that claim they are on Tawheed.

A Karamat can happen to any muslim, and a Karama is not sought for. Some of the 'karama' of these 'saints' is flying through the air, which is plain black magic, you can even see it Criss Angel doing it. Is he a Wali? For example, one of the leading Shaykhs today of the Naqshaband apparently has 'eyes' that can cure the soul of a Muslim. Who do these people think they are fooling?? (I can post the site where you can give him an e-bayah )

True Karama do happen, but it is does not mean that the person who recieved it is correct in all matters of the religion etc.

Recieving a karamat is not the criterion for a person to be considered pious.

As Ibn Taymiyyah wrote in his book "The Criterion between the Allies of Allaah and the Allies of the Devil":

The karaamaat of (miraculous occurrences granted to) the allies of Allah are greater than all of these things. These miraculous things, though they may originate from an ally of Allah, they may also originate from an enemy of Allah. Such miraculous are performed by many of the disbelievers, associationists, Christians, jews, and hypocrites. They may also be performed by the people of deviant innovation (ahl-ul-bid'a), and in all of these cases, they are from the devils (shayateen). Thus, it is not allowed to believe that everyone who brings about some of these miraculous events is an ally of Allah. They can only be considered allies of Allah according to the the characteristics, actions and conditions which have been attributed to the allies of Allah in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. They may be known by the light of faith and the Qur'an, the internal reality of faith, and the external laws of Islam.

And it is known about some of those that the Sufis believe are Awliya were in reality practicers of black magic. You can refer to Ibn Taymiyyah's book and others. Here is an example of what can be termed miracle:

There are many such examples throughout history, such as Al-Harith Ad-Dimashqiy who appeared in Syria-Jordan in the time of Abdulmalik ibn Marwan, and claimed to be a prophet. His shayateen used to take his feet out of the leg irons, and prevent weapons from penetrating his body. Marble slabs praised Allah when he rubbed his hand over them. He used to see people walking and riding up in the sky and would say that they were the angels. In reality, they were nothing but the Jinn. When the Muslims captured him and prepared to kill him, the executioner thrust his spear at him, but it would not penetrate his body. Abdulmalik said to him: You forgot to say Bismillahi. The executioner then said the bismillahi, and killed him.

Is he then a wali?


You're right bro. Even though the clear meaning of the verses can be understood by any layman, here are two long, detailed, really EXCELLENT sets of audio lecture explanations on the Kitab for those who want to really understand and know the book and the verses and Ahadith in it:

Shaykh Abdur Rauf Shakir: http://islamlecture.com/kitabtawheed.htm
Shaykh Yasir Qadhi: http://audioislam.com/?seriesdetail=Kitaab%20at-Tawheed

Yes and this is because Islaam is strict monothiesm. To make an intercessor between yourself and Allaah is shirk, to supplicate to other than Allaah is shirk, even if you believe that Allaah is the one who will ultimatly answer the supplication as this was the very polythiesm of the Arabs before Islaam.

The beauty of Islaam is that the common person has a direct connection to Allaah, and can pray and supplicate directly to Him without any intermediaries in the middle, and this is what Sr. Doodlebug said led her to Islaam.

Not because they follow their scriptures, but because they took their scholars as gods obeying them in the permissible and impermissible matters of the religion.

From Ibn Taymiyyah's 'The Criterion...':

Among these people also are those to whom the shaitaan brings foods, fruits and sweets which are not found in the area of the person. Others are flown by their jinn to Makka or to Jerusalem or other places. Some of them are carried to Arafat on the day of standing at Arafat in the Hajj, and are returned the same night. He has not made a legal Islamic Hajj. He goes in his ordinary clothes, does not enter Ihram when passing the point of doing so, does not pronounce the "Labbaik" of the Hajj, does not stand at Muzdalifa, does not perform Tawwaf (circumambulation) of the Ka'ba at Makka, does not run between Safa and Marwa, and does not throw the stones at the boulders symbolizing the devil. No, he just goes to Arafat in his ordinary clothes, and comes back the same night. This is not a valid Hajj in the consensus of all of the Muslims. It is like one who comes to the Friday prayer and prayers without ablutions to other than the direction of prayer. One of these people who were carried to Arafat on the day of standing saw angels in his sleep after his return recording the reward of the pilgrims. He asked them: Aren't you going to record me? To which they answered: You are not one of the pilgrims. i.e. You did not perform a legal Islamic Hajj.

There are many differences between the karamaat with which Allah honors His allies, and the satanic states which seemingly resemble them. For example, the karamaat of the allies of Allah are a result of faith and pious practice, while the satanic states are a result of that which Allah and His Prophet have interdicted. Allah said:

[Say: That which my Lord has forbidden is none other that despicable acts - both apparent nd hidden - sin, transgression with no justification, to associate as partners with Allah that for which He has sent no authority, and to say about Allah that which you do not know.] Qur'an 7/33

Thus speaking about Allah without knowledge, associationism, oppression, and all despicable acts have been forbidden by Allah ta'ala, and His Prophet (sas). They can never, therefore, be a cause or reason for the honor bestowed by Allah on His allies in the form of karamaat. If any seemingly miraculous feat does not come about via prayer, remembrance of Allah, and reading of the Qur'an, but is brought about by that which is loved by shaitaan, and by those things in which there is shirk (associationism) such as seeking the aid or succor of created beings, or is something sought for the purpose of oppressing others or committing sins, all of these are satanic states, and are not of the karamaat of Ar-Rahman!

Some of them, when they attend the sessions of whistling and beating sounds (music) are descended upon by their shaitaan, and carried through the air right out of the house. If one of the true allies of Allah comes on the scene, the shaitaan is repulsed, and the man falls to the ground as has happened on more than one occasion.

Others seek the succor of created beings - either living or dead - and irregardless of whether the one whose aid is sought is a Muslim, a Christian, or a Pagan. Shaitaan then comes to them in the form of the one whose aid was sought, and helps him out with some of his needs. The man then thinks that the one who he called indeed came to him, or that an angel came to him in the form of the one called. In reality, it is none other than shaitaan, who has succeeded in leading him astray by getting him to commit blatant shirk by calling to other than Allah for aid, just as shaitaan used to enter into the idols of Makka, and speak to the idol-worshippers. Sometimes, shaitaan appears to them in human form and says that he is Al-Khidhr. He then informs him of some of the unseen things, and helps him with some of his needs. Another satanic trick which has been witnessed by many Muslims, Jews, Christians, and others among the disbelievers in the lands of the East and the West is that when one of them dies, shaitaan comes to them after his death in his form and his face, and so they believe that it is that person (i.e. his "ghost"). This jinn then may pay off some of the dead man's debts, return his trusts, do various other things related to the dead man, and enter into his wife, and leave. They may have burned the body of the dead man, as the disbelievers of India do, and so imagine that he lives after his death. One of these who are fooled by shaitaan was an old man in Egypt. He left a will to his servant not to let anyone wash his body, telling him that he would come himself after his death to wash his own body. When he died, his servant saw someone come in the form of the man, and believed that it was him and that he washed his own body! When the one who had come had finished the body washing, he vanished without a trace. That was a shaitaan he had succeeded in leading the one who had died astray by telling him that he would come to wash himself and not to allow anyone to wash his body. When he died, this shaitaan came in his form in order to lead others astray as he had already led the dead man astray.

Some have seen a throne in the air above which there is a light and a voice which addresses them saying: I am your Lord. If they are people of knowledge, they recognize this as shaitaan, castigate him, seek refuge in Allah from him, and the whole vision and the voice disappear.

Others see humans while they are wide awake, and they claim to be prophets or righteous men or "shaikhs". This has happened to many people. Some have seen this when visiting the grave of that person - they see the grave split open, and this image comes out of it to them, and they believe it to be the dead man. It is nothing but a jinn which has assumed the form of the dead man. Others have seen a horseman coming out of the grave or entering it. That, too, is nothing but a shaitaan. Anyone who says that they have seen a prophet with his eyes saw nothing but his own imagination.

Some of them see in their sleep a great man such as Abu Bakr or others come to them and shave their head, or cut short their hair, or dress them in a hat or a robe. Then, when they wake up, they find their hair shaven or shortened, or that hat or coat which they dreamed on them. It was a jinn who came and did these things, and this is one of the satanic states which occur to those who have deviated from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. They are of different levels (of deviation), just as the jinn which become attached to them and are of their type and their school of belief are. Some of the jinn are disbelievers (kuffar), some corrupt sinners (faasiq), and others are simply mistaken in their actions (mukhti'). If the human is a disbeliever or a sinner, or ignorant, the jinn will join him in his disbelief or sin or going astray. They may help him when he agrees with them in the kufr which they have chosen such as swearing in the name of those jinn which they view as great (thereby associating them with Allah), or writing the names of Allah or His words with filthy materials, or inverting the opening chapter of the Qur'an or the sura of Ikhlaas, or Ayat-ul-Kursiy or other parts of the Qur'an, and then write them with filth. Then the jinn will carry him on water, or through the air because of that kufr which has pleased him. What's more, they may come to him with women or young boys which they desire, either through the air, or by driving them to him. There are many such examples which would take too long to enumerate. Belief in such things is belief in Al-jabt and At-Taaghoot which has been mentioned in the Qur'an (4:51). Al-Jabt is sorcery, and At-Taaghoot is devils and idols. If a man is in obedience to Allah and His Prophet, they (i.e. the evil jinn) will not be able to join him in that, nor to make peace with him.

This is why the prescribed worship of the Muslims is in the mosques, which are the houses of Allah. Those who frequent the mosques most are the farthest of the creation from the satanic states. On the other hand, the people of associationism and innovation (bid'a) sanctify graves and tombs of the dead. They pray to the dead (saints, etc.) or they pray (to Allah, but) in his name, or they hold the conviction that any du'a made in the presence of his grave is answered. Such are much closer to the satanic states, the Prophet said in a hadith reported by both Muslim and Bukhari:

"Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians, they took the graves of their prophets as places of prayer (masajid)."

And, in the collection of Muslim, it is recorded that the Prophet (sas) said just a few nights before his death:

"The most generous of people with me with his companionship and that which he possesses is Abu Bakr. If I were to take a beloved friend from the people of this world, I would take Abu Bakr as my beloved friend, but I am the beloved friend of Allah. Let there not remain any small opening into the masjid without being sealed up except for that of Abu Bakr. Verily those who came before you take their graves as places of worship. Take note! Do not take graves as places of worship, verily, I forbid you that."

In Muslim and Bukhari it is reported that the Prophet during his terminal illness was told by his companions of a church in Ethiopia, its beautiful architecture and its statuary. The Prophet said:

"Those people, whenever a righteous man among dies build a place of worship over his grave, and carved for it those statues. They are the most evil of Allah's creation before Allah on the day of Qiyama."

In the collection of Ahmad and Ibn Hibban, it is reported that the Prophet (sas) said:

"Verily among the most evil of Allah's creation are those to whom Qiyama comes while they are still alive, and those who take graves as places of worship."

And, in another sahih hadith, the Prophet (sas) said:

"Do not sit on graves, nor pray toward them."

In the collection of Malik, the Prophet is recorded as having said:

"O, Allah, do not let my grave become an idol after I am gone which is worshipped. The anger of Allah is intense at a people who take the graves of their prophets as places of worship."

In the books of As-Sunan, it is recorded that the Prophet said:

"Do not take my grave as a special place (to which you exert yourselves to come from near and far), and ask Allah's prayers upon me wherever you are for, verily, your prayers reach me."

"No one gives salaam to me but that Allah returns my soul to me until I can return his greeting."

"Verily, Allah has assigned angels to my grave who deliver to me the greetings of my nation."

"Be prolific in asking Allah's prayers upon me on Friday, and the night before Friday, for your prayers are shown to me. They said: O, Messenger of Allah, how are our prayers shown to you when you have decomposed in the earth? The Prophet said: Verily Allah has forbidden the earth to consume the meat of the prophets."

Allah said in His book about the associationist people of Nuh:

[They said: Do not forsake your gods, do not forsake Wadd, Suwaa', Yaghooth, Ya'ooq, and Nasr.] Qur'an 71/23

Ibn Abbas and others of the first generations reported about this verse:

"These "gods" (mentioned in the verse) were a righteous people among the people of Nuh. When they died, the people were devoted to their graves. Later, they made images of them and worshipped them. This was the beginning of idol worship."

Thus, the Prophet forbade the taking of graves as places of worship to block the way which leads to shirk, just as he forbad praying at the time of sunrise and sunset because the associationists at that time used to prostrate to the sun, and shaitaan positions himself in line with the sun at those times. Prayer at those times resembles the prayer of the associationists, so the Prophet closed this door. Shaitaan leads the sons of Adam astray to the extent of his ability. So whoever worships the sun and the moon and the planets and calls to them as the planet worshippers do, shaitaan will cone upon them and speak to him and inform of certain things. They then call this the "spirits of the planets", and it is shaitaan! Although shaitaan may aid a person with some of his needs and goals, he does harm to him many times greater than any benefit! The final disposition of one who obeys him is evil indeed - except for he toward whom Allah turns in acceptance.

Likewise, the devil may address those who worship idols, and likewise also those who call for aid from someone who is dead or absent, and likewise someone who prays to a dead man, or prays with his name, or believes that supplication near his grave is superior to supplication in his house or in the mosques. Many of them believe in an alleged hadith, which is a forgery in the unanimous opinion of the experts, and which says:

"When knowledge fails you, you must take yourselves to the people of the graves" (forged hadith)

This was forged by those wishing to open the door to shirk.

The people of innovations (bid'a) and the people of shirk who resemble them among the idol worshippers, the Christians, and the Muslims who have gone astray experience phenomena at the tombs which they visit which they imagine to be karamaat, but which are from the devils. For example, they may put a pair of pants on the grave, and come back to find it tied in a knot, or they may bring someone who is possessed to the grave, and see the jinn who has afflicted him leave him. The devil does this to lead them further astray. If Ayat-ul-Kursiy is read there with true belief and intention, none of these things will happen. Tauhid drives shaitaan away. This is why some of them have been carried in the air and when they said: "Laa ilaha illa Allah" (There is no deity but Allah), they fell to the earth. When some of them see the grave split open and someone coming out of it who they imagine to be the dead man, it is really a shaitaan. There are so many examples that this small book is not sufficient to enumerate them.

Since isolation in caves or deserts is an innovation which has not been prescribed or recommended by Allah and His Prophet (sas), the devils frequently make their abode in caves and on mountains. Examples are the cave of blood which is on Mount Qasiyoon, Mount Lebanon, Mount Fath in Aswan, Egypt, the Mountains of Rome in Afghanistan, various mountains in the Arabian Peninsula, Mount Lukam, Mound Al-Ahyash, Mount Sulan near Ardabeel, Mount Shahank in Tabriz, Mount Mashko in Aqshwaan, Mount Nahawund, and many other mountains and places where people believe there are righteous man of the human type. They call them "the men of the unseen", and they are nothing but men of the jinn. The jinn are "men", just as humans are men. Allah said:

[And verily some men from among the humans used to seek refuge in men from among the jinn, and so the latter merely increased the former in their burden (their burden of fear as the jinn gain more ability to strike fear into them due to their shirk, and their burden of sin, as they sink deeper and deeper into the shirk of seeking the protection of the jinn instead of Allah.)] Qur'an 72/7

Some of these jinn appear in the form of a man covered with hair, with skin like that of a goat, and people who do not know him think him to be a human, but he is a jinn. It is said: on every mountain of the ones mentioned earlier are the forty Abdaal (see page 10). Those who they believe to be the abdaal are the jinn who live on those mountains, as is well known in a number of ways.

Again, this area is too vast to go into it here, nor to mentions all of the things which I know about it. I have personally seen and heard more of these things than can fit in this book which was written for one who asked me to mention to him something about the allies of Allah, and how to recognize the important elements in this question.

Read the rest of the chapter here: http://www.islamicboard.com/597999-post15.html (The Criterion Between the Allies of the Merciful and the Allies of the Devil)

Imaam Abu Haneefah said,

"It is not befitting for anyone to call upon Him, except by Him, and with the supplication that He has permitted and ordered, that which is instructed in His statement:

"And Allaah has Beautiful Names, so call upon Him by them, and leave the company of those who deviate concerning His Names. They will be recompensed for what they used to do." [Sooratul-A'raaf 7:180]”

ad-Durrul-Mukhtaar ma'a Haashiyah Raddul-Muhtaar (6/396- 397).

Imaam Abu Haneefah also said,

‘It is detested for the supplicator to say, `I ask You by the right of so and so,' or,`By the right of Your Prophets and Messengers, and by the right of the Sacred House and the Sacred Sanctuary."

Sharhul-'Aqeedatut-Tahaawiyyah (p.234) and Ithaafus-Saadaatul Mustaqeem (2/285) and Sharhul Fiqhil-Akbar (p. 198) of al-Qaaree.

WHOAH!!!

i see, so its makhruh but not haram?

detested - makhruh right? :S


jazakAllah khair for thaT!!!

Alhamdulillah ive never performed waseelah yet, but i never considered it haram either. i still aint sure, i'll research although i've already done loads of research.


i'll make istikhara

Means hated not just disliked (makruh)

wasalaam

detest is to feel intense hatred

Wow thanks for all the input guys!!

So...bottom line..... do I not bother going to this place 'cause it's a bad mosque? http://www.sacred-destinations.com/e...rsi-mosque.htm

i agree that it is a beautiful thing about islam that you do not need a "middleman" to connect with god.
but i still have a question about the role of intent here, because i know intent is important in islam. if someone chooses to invoke a saint's merits but his intent is completely to worship god alone and he is supplicating to god alone - is he doing wrong? (i am aware that there have been abuses and deviations in sufism over the centuries).
the other question i have is would you say hazrat moinuddin chishti (http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...-nawaz-ra.html) was practicing black magic?
sorry for all these questions, but this is something i've wondered about for a long time.