Originally Posted by IHaveADream

I believe the second part of your `sig`sums up what is in the mind of most muslims I have encountered, ``for the believer, no amount of proof is necessary``

Thanks for sharing that..
I find it a bit troubling that you concern yourself so with what goes in the mind of 'most muslims' that you've encountered? Why is that? Do you have a persecution complex? Do you believe that their beliefs influence you somehow? are their beliefs threatening to you on some level? Does it upset you that they believe in something which you don't?

we can by the same token classify you with your group of [(kanoods) since you read Arabic you should know what that means, but I digress] as you like your class of people seem to bring the same bromides to the table and think it rather groundbreaking...

a slave to the human condition in the beginning and the end it seems?

all the best

You've written quite a bit for someone who needs to study for a test, and rather make us reminisce of a former or perhaps existing Pakistani apostate who was always studying for test after a few carpet bombs and a run.. nonetheless, let's focus on what you have written:

Originally Posted by IHaveADream

Well, first of all, please stop the ad hom attacks and if you don`t think I have read the q`ran, well, then there`s no way of me convincing you.

I don't see any adhoms.. does anyone else? you claim you have read the quran, followed by and I quote:

Originally Posted by IHaveADream

Well, to this I would make two points.

1. It should contain some knowledge that no man could have known at the time of its revelation
------.

to which I have replied with A'ad, Thamud, Luqman, Erum, Ahl, Al-kahf, to name a few
interestingly there were no libraries or translators in Arabia, or wild excavations for them to have come down to lyrically and poetically with every verse!

and to which you had no comment..
Someone who had read the Quran, and as a devout would instinctively know those things amongst others, especially that many of them were unearthed as a modern day excavation.

i was raised a pakistani muslim and my mholve saab came on the weekend to watch me read it.

and this is a testament to what? writing Parti Québécois doesn't make me from Québec or a member of a separatist party!

as to Sayf Udeen, yes it is true, it has not convinced me that it is written by God and does not give any good reason to believe in the religion.

I am not say udeen, but pls humor me, why should we be aggrieved by this declaration?

If you wish to discuss the qu`ran, be my guest i am not prohibiting it in any sense.

What about the Quran would you like to discuss?

Originally Posted by IHaveADream

second of all I didn`t read it objectively at first, infact I read it as a devoted muslim

you must have a different defintion for devotion than the rest of us?.. we always assume devotion as an advanced step... even in the Quran, it is stated:

قَالَتِ الأَعْرَابُ آمَنَّا قُلْ لَمْ تُؤْمِنُوا وَلَكِنْ قُولُوا أَسْلَمْنَا وَلَمَّا يَدْخُلِ الإِيمَانُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ وَإِنْ تُطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لا يَلِتْكُمْ مِنْ أَعْمَالِكُمْ شَيْئًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ

--, "We believe." Say, "Ye, have no Faith, but ye (only) say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah, 'for not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

In the Quran, Allah swt is well acquainted with the human condition, so pls don't come under the false pretenses of devotion, I don't believe you know the meaning of the term!

all the best

Greetings,

Originally Posted by Sayf Udeen

Have you read it objectively?

I tried to read it as objectively as any human can read any text.

What were you qualms since it clearly hasn't convinced you?

There's a long list of them, and I don't know if discussing them would take us off the topic.

You could say that about anything, and in most cases (inclusive of al-Qur'aan) it depends on the manner of one's mind in which they read it.

Some texts are convincing no matter what frame of mind you read them in.

I've been on these forums a fairly long time, and I've learned a lot since I've been here. I often see arguments of the following kind presented to non-Muslims:

If you'd read the Qur'an you'd believe in Islam.
If you'd read the Qur'an objectively you'd believe in Islam.
If you'd read the Qur'an properly you'd believe in Islam.
If you'd read the Qur'an in Arabic you'd believe in Islam.

You know the type of thing I mean.

This is similar to the no true Scotsman fallacy. Any objection to the truth of the Qu'ran can instantly be met with "you haven't read it properly" or "you haven't read it objectively".

In fact, many of us have read it from cover to cover, as sincerely as we can, and are simply not convinced. That is the plain truth of the matter.

Peace

Originally Posted by czgibson

In fact, many of us have read it from cover to cover, as sincerely as we can, and are simply not convinced. That is the plain truth of the matter.

Peace

That is indeed true..
It is the same when I hand out pamphlets on the ills of smoking and in spite of even surgeon general warning right on the box, there will always be a group of the population who are just simply not convinced.. then they go on citing such things as Milton Berle who lived to be 100, and always a cigar in his mouth...indeed in the Quran Allah swt states the following verses which I believe serve all man-kind equally:

74:38] Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.

73:10] And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity).

88:21] Remind them, for thou art but a remembrancer, 88:22] Thou art not at all a warder over them.

73:19] Lo! This is a Reminder. Let him who will, then, choose a way unto his Lord.

44:59] So wait thou and watch; for they (too) are waiting.


in other words, all the Quran can do for anyone is call them the signs of their lord, the naturally occurring ones and remind man-kind that each soul will have a taste of death.. and that is all that any Muslim can do for you (not you per se) but any athei/agnosto/ who comes with some apothegmatic pedantry!

all the best

Greetings,

Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

That is indeed true..
It is the same when I hand out pamphlets on the ills of smoking and in spite of even surgeon general warning right on the box, there will always be a group of the population who are just simply not convinced.. then they go on citing such things as Milton Berle who lived to be 100, and always a cigar in his mouth...

It's a strange analogy to choose - surely the fact that there's addiction involved there makes it rather different?

Also, the evidence that smoking damages health is far more widely accepted than evidence supporting Islam.

indeed in the Quran Allah swt states the following verses which I believe serve all man-kind equally:

74:38] Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.

73:10] And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity).

88:21] Remind them, for thou art but a remembrancer, 88:22] Thou art not at all a warder over them.

73:19] Lo! This is a Reminder. Let him who will, then, choose a way unto his Lord.

44:59] So wait thou and watch; for they (too) are waiting.

These are simple assertions, very different from the claim that smoking damages health. Why should anybody believe them? They are supported by no evidence outside the text itself.

in other words, all the Quran can do for anyone is call them the signs of their lord, the naturally occurring ones and remind man-kind that each soul will have a taste of death.. and that is all that any Muslim can do for you (not you per se) but any athei/agnosto/ who comes with some apothegmatic pedantry!

That's a good way of looking at it, and I accept that when Muslims do this they are doing it from sincerely felt motives.

As an ex-Greek scholar and confirmed pedant, however, I would definitely prefer the bulky elegance of the word apophthegmatic.

But that's another story...

Peace

Personally, I belive that there is convincing evidence in support of Islam that can be reached through purely objective study. One of these is, as czgibson made reference to earlier, the miraculous nature of the Qur'an (which I think is often so poorly explained to Non-Muslims that I can understand how the idea might seem ridiculous to them). Another piece of evidence is the sincerity of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) - the fact that he could not have been intentionally lying nor is it plausible that he had been imagining these revelations.

What I have stated here is brief and I accept that they are not really backed up with explanation or detail and so I do not expect this alone to convince anyone. If I have time, then I will expand on these points further. I should add that these are not the only items of evidence, but I don't have time to go into that right now.

I would like to address IHaveADream's original question?
From the sounds of it you seem to have got past the point of believing in God i.e. youre not an atheist.(correct me if wrong)
Now based on the premise that you are a believer in God, before asking if Islam is true or not you should research all other religions and then ask yourself which one makes sense to you most.

Originally Posted by czgibson

Greetings,


It's a strange analogy to choose - surely the fact that there's addiction involved there makes it rather different?

Greetings,
There are several theories involving the term 'addiction', I have certainly seen many quit cold Turkey, mind over matter so to speak..
I find Medical Ethics to be so strangely in concert with Islamic laws, and it is part of the attraction.
and rule number one is always respecting patient autonomy. I certainly can respect for instance that a "Jehovah's witness' may refuse a blood transfusion even though it maybe life saving.. as well the concept of mentally competent isn't so tightly wound as to take away the rights of say folks with down syndrome who wish to have children etc... so no overall I don't think it a strange analogy.. I think it is very befitting for our purposes here...

Also, the evidence that smoking damages health is far more widely accepted than evidence supporting Islam.

I'll have to argue against that too based on stats alone.. How many quit based on the evidence of damage to health and addiction, whereas how many convert to Islam?
It is generally believed in medical practices that less than 5% of pts will quit because of the advise of a medical professional. Nonetheless those who do constantly advise and follow up and have a good rapport with their patience achieve the best results..

These are simple assertions, very different from the claim that smoking damages health. Why should anybody believe them? They are supported by no evidence outside the text itself.

I didn't give you a compendium of Quranic and Hadiths literature, I gave you the upshot of what I felt was most pertinent to this thread.. I can make an equally effective argument for any number of things.. the question after what I have quoted you, is what interest would I have converting anyone to Islam? I gain absolutely nothing!

That's a good way of looking at it, and I accept that when Muslims do this they are doing it from sincerely felt motives.

I accept that there are wonderful Muslims who are interested in the welfare of others, for me personally I'd rather fix the Muslims we do have than work on new ones..

As an ex-Greek scholar and confirmed pedant, however, I would definitely prefer the bulky elegance of the word apophthegmatic.

But that's another story...

I was indeed thinking of how many a visitors here come a fi a fi a fo a fumming with their new revelations, when I wrote that!

Peace

all the best

K' I'm back.

Originally Posted by GreyKode

I would like to address IHaveADream's original question?
From the sounds of it you seem to have got past the point of believing in God i.e. youre not an atheist.(correct me if wrong)
Now based on the premise that you are a believer in God, before asking if Islam is true or not you should research all other religions and then ask yourself which one makes sense to you most.

No, my family is muslim but I am atheist/agnostic

Getting back on topic, Gossamer skye, you're speaking with such confidence that the qu'ran is true, but when I question it, all you do is try to say that I haven't read the qu'ran.

As for the point about evolution, it does contradict the qu'ran in a few ways, such as it's story of creation in a few days and that Adam and Eve (I know the names are a bit different, like adamalaysalam) were the firs two created.

Share with us what evolution says about humans

Originally Posted by IHaveADream

Getting back on topic, Gossamer skye, you're speaking with such confidence that the qu'ran is true, but when I question it, all you do is try to say that I haven't read the qu'ran.

You haven't brought anything substantial to the table to discuss. short of saying I disagree, I have used the analogy of Shakespearean plays not being written by Shakespeare you asserted I'd need to read it to know -- well in fact there are several theories circulating on the actual authorship of his work some contending them to be the works of Francis Bacon, Christopher Marlowe, William Stanley to name a few.
It appears simple enough, indeed I can even manage a pshaww, it seems to me the burden of proof would lie on the one making the allegations.. no?

further, I can tell you haven't out of your ignorance of simple things that are common knowledge to most Muslims!

As for the point about evolution, it does contradict the qu'ran in a few ways, such as it's story of creation in a few days and that Adam and Eve (I know the names are a bit different, like adamalaysalam) were the firs two created.

again, if you have in fact read the Quran you'd know that days by God's measure aren't equal to ours, as well the beginning two lines of suret al'insan simply denote we might not even be the most important beings of creation..

Now other than that I have told you that you are free to prove evolution as a testable non theoretical fact, given the competing theories on the origin of the things, even though the start point itself is already based on an apriori judgment, I'd be willing to forgo minute detail, if you'd take that first primordial goo and give me a human at the end.. Does that sound fair?


all the best

Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

You haven't brought anything substantial to the table to discuss. short of saying I disagree, I have used the analogy of Shakespearean plays not being written by Shakespeare you asserted I'd need to read it to know -- well in fact there are several theories circulating on the actual authorship of his work some contending them to be the works of Francis Bacon, Christopher Marlowe, William Stanley to name a few.

Ok, well Shakespeares plays don't claim that you will suffer eternal ****ation if you don't do what they say, so most people will overlook the controversial background knowledge, while the qu'ran does and yet does not provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm sure if the qu'ran didn't say you would go to hell without following it, most people wouldn't even care to scrutinize it.

Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

again, if you have in fact read the Quran you'd know that days by God's measure aren't equal to ours

This is basically the same manipulation of script used by any creationist debater. Sorry, but you can't keep moving the goalpost by interpreting something differently as it gets proved wrong. Anyways, if God is writing this book for humans, why would he put it to us in this way, to purposely confuse us into not believing him.

Also, you didn't address my point about Adam and Eve.

Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

it seems to me the burden of proof would lie on the one making the allegations.. no?

Obviously you can't comprehend irony, so let me just ask you how would you prove the allegation that islam is true

Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

Now other than that I have told you that you are free to prove evolution as a testable non theoretical fact, given the competing theories on the origin of the things, even though the start point itself is already based on an apriori judgment, I'd be willing to forgo minute detail, if you'd take that first primordial goo and give me a human at the end.. Does that sound fair?

Not exactly fair, considering the vast amount of explanations that go into getting this message across to someone who will obviously ignore it anyways. Second of all, I don't see how competing theories would prove islam right as most scientists would agree that creationism is no competing theory in science.