Originally Posted by IHaveADream

And yes I am aware that muslims interpret this as a vague number of years, however, this goves no real information and only allows them to deflect criticism

What do you mean muslims interpret as ...?
In the most ancient and original of arabic dictionaries(Lisan al arab) check the interpretation of the word youm and you'll see that it does mean that.

It seems this discussion has gotten way too off topic, so to clarify, this is a place where you can show something about islam that proves it to be true beyond reasonable doubt. Ok? Not a place to make baseless assertions that someone has never read the quran or that the qu'ran doesn't give enough specifics to be proven wrong.

Originally Posted by IHaveADream

It seems this discussion has gotten way too off topic, so to clarify, this is a place where you can show something about islam that proves it to be true beyond reasonable doubt. Ok? Not a place to make baseless assertions that someone has never read the quran or that the qu'ran doesn't give enough specifics to be proven wrong.

Wrong!.
First, since you are an atheist, I think you should worry about believing in God and then later on start asking whether Islam is the true religion or not.

And foremost, you have to have a motive, you don't come around telling people please convert me, if youre content living the way you do, then nothing will change your mind.

Now, lets consider this hypothetical scenario and be honest with yourself about it, if there was this divine book claiming to be from with the creator, and it contains Maxwell's 4 equations and a detailed description "beyond reasonable doubt" of Einstein's relativity theory, would you then be convinced that its from God the creator and submit to his will unconditionally.

Originally Posted by IHaveADream

It seems this discussion has gotten way too off topic, so to clarify, this is a place where you can show something about islam that proves it to be true beyond reasonable doubt. Ok? Not a place to make baseless assertions that someone has never read the quran or that the qu'ran doesn't give enough specifics to be proven wrong.

Peace...

Why dont you show us something that about Islam that proves it to be untrue beyond reasonable doubt. Ok!

Peace...

wow theres so many...

how about the fact that the prophet was illetirate and was given a revelation which surpassed the greatest poets and yet was not poetry.

or that he knew history of so many things (the people of aad, thamud, israelli's and what happened to jesus etc) which as time goes on are proven to be correct

or his prophecies which have always proven to be correct (such as his predictions for outcomes of war etc)


just to name a few


oh and lets not forget the miraculous Quran, which to this day has no equal and no discrepency

Originally Posted by GreyKode

Wrong!.
First, since you are an atheist, I think you should worry about believing in God and then later on start asking whether Islam is the true religion or not.

I think that it is possible to prove that Islam is true, and prove the existence of God in the process. I think the proofs of Islam's truthfulness show that there must be a God.

Originally Posted by IHaveADream

Assuming God has created Islam for humans to use to get to heaven, one should assume that he should have reasonably provided some sort of evidence in the revelations to allow an objective person to accept the religion, being that many people throughout history have falsely claimed divinity.

So, if anyone would like to debate on this topic, just post any evidence you have found.

PS: Please don't just write something to the effect of "Refer to (add chosen islamic scholar here). Please provide a summary of the specific point you wish to make in order to allow the discussion to be easily accessible. Also avoid just copy and pasting if possible.

Thank you.

going back to step 1, let's discuss the problem that we have here.

the first of which APPEARS to be that you are not an agnostic, but an apostate. there's a BIG difference. why be dishonest?

knowing that you've mislead us, we now need to know what is your intention with this thread? are you genuinely and sincerely looking evidence or is your intent here only to spread [what may be] your discontent?

if we have opposing intentions, this is just a waste of time. i would explain why like this:

using the "Gibreel(as) Hadith" as a reference and the term Ayat:

Umar Ibn Al-Khattab reports: One day when we were with Allah's Messenger (saw), a man with very white clothing and very black hair came up to us. No mark of travel was visible on him, and none of us recognized him. Sitting down beside the Prophet (saw), leaning his knees against his and placing his hands on his thighs, he said: “Tell me, Muhammad, about Islam.” He replied: “Islam means that you should testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad (saw) is Allah's Messenger, that you should observe the prayer, pay the Zakat, fast during Ramadan, and make the pilgrimage to the House if you are able to go there.” He said: “You have spoken the truth.” We were surprised at his questioning him and then declaring that he spoke the truth. He said: “Now tell me about Iman.” He replied: “It means that you should believe in Allah (swt), His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and that you should believe in the decreeing both of good and evil.” Remarking that he had spoken the truth, he then said: “Now tell me about Ihsan.” He replied: “It means that you should worship Allah (swt) as though you see Him, for He sees you though you do not see Him.” He said: “Now tell me about the Hour.” He replied: “The one who is asked about it is no better informed than the one who is asking.” He said: “Then tell me about its signs.” He replied: “That a maid-servant should beget her mistress, and that you should see barefooted, naked, poor men and shepherds exalting themselves in buildings.” [Umar] says: He then went away, and after I had waited for a long time, [the Prophet] said to me: “Do you know who the questioner was, Umar?” I replied: “Allah and His Messenger know best.” He said: “He was Gabriel who came to you to teach you your religion.” (Narrated by Muslim)

Maulana Imran Hosein rephrases it thus: Islam is when Islam enters your belief(brain). Iman is when Islam enters your heart. and Ihsan is just as above.

now using Muhsin Kkan's definition of ayat verse 17 from Surat Al Khaf:

17:
Muhsin Khan: And you might have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the midst of the Cave. That is (one) of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, signs) of Allah. He whom Allah guides, is rightly guided; but he whom He sends astray, for him you will find no Wali (guiding friend) to lead him (to the right Path).

i would rearrange it all thus:

to a nonbeliever, all of the Ayats of Allah[swt] are merely signs. whether they recognize them or not , they are still signs.

to a Muslim [that is, once Islam enters the brain] the Ayats of Allah[swt] are ALL EVIDENCE!

to a Mu'min [Islam entering the heart], all of the Ayat's of Allah[swt] are PROOF!

to those with Ihsan the Ayat's of Allah[swt] are OVERWHELMING PROOF, no comparisons needed.

how are we supposed to let you see with our eyes?

to me, each day is an ayat, each month is an ayat, each season is an ayat. each birth is an ayat, each death is an ayat. the falling rain is an ayat. each du'a is an ayat, each Salat an ayat, each good deed an ayat. and the failings are also ayat as well. the list goes on and many are mentiuoined repeatedly in the Qur'an.

EVERYTHING is either Alhumdulillah, MashaAllah or SubhanAllah!

i don't speak Arabic either, but i listen to the Qur'an in Arabic and sometimes with English recital as well. HOWEVER, being a revert and one who finds immense Joy in Islam, i spend alot of time listening to lectures. Mufti Ismail Menk and Brother [Dr.] Bashar Shala being my favorite and i also value the wotk of Dr Bilal Philips and Jamal Zarabozo. my wife and i are currently listening to Heavenly Pearls, a 34 part series on Imam An Nawawi's 40 Ahadeeth. Dr Philips has a great 21 part series called Foundations of Islamic Studies and Jamaal Zarabozo has a magnificent 28 part lecture on Al Fatihah. Brothers Menk and Shala have MANY MANY works that i love, especially Menks talks on Asbab Un Nazool and Shala's Islamic History. i would say that they both are GIFTED in describing the BEAUTY of Islam with Brother Menk's strong point being Islam and Brother Shala's being the Qur'an [and history].

alot of Mufti Menks lectures are here:
http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html

while Brother Bashar Shala's work appears here [click on media, there's alot more]:
http://www.pleasantviewschool.com/me...rophet%20(pbuh)


commenting on your original post no one in Islam is claiming false divinity. and of course that leaves out Shii'aa, Qadiyani, Ahmadiyyas and some Sufi [although the Shaykh i paraphrased above IS a Sufi]. i would say that Allah[swt] created Heaven for man. Islam is simply how we return to Allah[swt]

i don't now what kind of Jahillya or Assibiya you experience as a youngster, i would merely state that Islam is a wonder and that where you find crap, it wasn't Islam, just crap.

make sense?

Originally Posted by Najm

Peace...

Why dont you show us something that about Islam that proves it to be untrue beyond reasonable doubt. Ok!

Peace...

Ok, I have an imaginary friend that only I can see. I will continue to believe in it unless you can disprove it beyond reasonable doubt. Do you see the flaw in your argument?

Originally Posted by Fighting4Iman

wow theres so many...

how about the fact that the prophet was illetirate and was given a revelation which surpassed the greatest poets and yet was not poetry.

or that he knew history of so many things (the people of aad, thamud, israelli's and what happened to jesus etc) which as time goes on are proven to be correct

or his prophecies which have always proven to be correct (such as his predictions for outcomes of war etc)


just to name a few


oh and lets not forget the miraculous Quran, which to this day has no equal and no discrepency

Before I give a full response, may I know specifically about the miracles or prophecies you are referring to.

21:30 "Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"
Surah Al Aniyaa.
The Big Bang Theory alluded to in the Quran 1400 years ago.

"And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres."
Surah Al Anbiyaa ayah 33

There are many more scientific facts mentioned in the Quran, many of them were obviously unknown to the Arabs of the time and even to scientists a century ago. The Arabs in the time of Jahiliyyah were crazy.

There are also many literary aspects of the Quran that are amazing and could not have been done my a human. I cannot go and list all of them in a good way just on the top, but ff you really want to learn about Islam and the miracles of it, listen to some lectures by actual alims.

Zakir Naik is very good more on science aspects. http://www.halaltube.com/zakir-naik-...uran-gods-word

Nouman Ali Khan is very good also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaS5NsvZ4yM

If you don't feel satisfied with all the answers we're giving then just watch those videos of learned people rather than complain about not finding substantial proof about Islam.

Originally Posted by IHaveADream

Ok, I have an imaginary friend that only I can see. I will continue to believe in it unless you can disprove it beyond reasonable doubt. Do you see the flaw in your argument?

You yourself just said that your friend is imaginary... So really, your post is the flawed one.


(here is a hint for future posts. We don't claim to see God.)

Originally Posted by Shakoor15

There are many more scientific facts mentioned in the Quran, many of them were obviously unknown to the Arabs of the time and even to scientists a century ago. The Arabs in the time of Jahiliyyah were crazy.

Zakir Naik is very good more on science aspects. http://www.halaltube.com/zakir-naik-...uran-gods-word

Actually, the whole "science proves Islam" argument is flawed, but I won't go into it as it is off-topic from this thread.

We should not believe in Islam for the science in the Quran. I believe in it because of the phenomenon of Islam in today's world, and believe in the Prophet's word as provided through historical evidence. Consequently, I also reject a lot of the teachings of so-called "scholars". There is no way to convince a non-believer to believe in that word, i.e., there is no science or thought experiment that will directly give evidence of God.

Also, I have yet to watch a Zakir Naik video that doesn't contain many logical fallacies, or statements that are just plainly wrong. Just watch his video on evolution and you'll see what I mean.

You talked about the science argument being flawed, tell me how. I'm not trying to use science in the Quran to base my whole belief but I'm using it to prove in yet another way that the Quran is a miracle and is from Allah.
Then you started talking about how scholars shouldn't try to spread Islam. Haha bro this is part of Islam, dawah is compulsary as stated in the Quran, if you dont believe me read surah Al-Asr. You cannot just say "oh these people will never believe there's no proof so whas the point of preaching to them" No that's wrong you can't say that. Allah guides he whom he wills and misguides he whom he wills.
And Dr. Zakir Naik is tight don't mess wit em.

Greetings,

Originally Posted by qweretyq

Actually, the whole "science proves Islam" argument is flawed, but I won't go into it as it is off-topic from this thread.

We should not believe in Islam for the science in the Quran. I believe in it because of the phenomenon of Islam in today's world, and believe in the Prophet's word as provided through historical evidence. Consequently, I also reject a lot of the teachings of so-called "scholars". There is no way to convince a non-believer to believe in that word, i.e., there is no science or thought experiment that will directly give evidence of God.

Also, I have yet to watch a Zakir Naik video that doesn't contain many logical fallacies, or statements that are just plainly wrong. Just watch his video on evolution and you'll see what I mean.

What a breath of fresh air!

It's been a long time since I've seen someone speak such sense on these topics on the forum.

Peace

Originally Posted by Shakoor15

You talked about the science argument being flawed, tell me how.

Basically, the gist of it is that the Quran requires interpretation and sentences can be interpreted differently. Also, using science to "prove" Quran places science above the Quran. There is more to it; if you want to, read http://www.********************/Andy/fallacies_sri-posts.html#1
Note that both, the Muslim and the Christian agree to that point.

I'm not trying to use science in the Quran to base my whole belief but I'm using it to prove in yet another way that the Quran is a miracle and is from Allah.

Again, you cannot use science to PROVE that it is from Allah, for the reasons mentioned above. But you can use it to suggest it; there is a difference.

Then you started talking about how scholars shouldn't try to spread Islam. Haha bro this is part of Islam, dawah is compulsary as stated in the Quran, if you dont believe me read surah Al-Asr. You cannot just say "oh these people will never believe there's no proof so whas the point of preaching to them" No that's wrong you can't say that. Allah guides he whom he wills and misguides he whom he wills.

Thank you for completely twisting my words. Where in my post did I say scholars should not spread Islam? My argument was that there is always a way that one can argue against scientific statements against the Quran and that there is no strictly scientific method of proving the Quran; i.e. it requires some faith. This does not mean that I believe people should not try to convince others of attaining that faith. I agree that dahwah is important, but it should be done in the right manner.

And Dr. Zakir Naik is tight don't mess wit em.

I do have a problem with people making unsubstantiated claims and providing erroneous statements about events in history.

Please think before you post.

Originally Posted by czgibson

What a breath of fresh air!

It's been a long time since I've seen someone speak such sense on these topics on the forum.

Peace

Thank You. I get tired of some of the nonsense people post around here from time to time as well.