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Thread: The Injil

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    Question The Injil

    What do Muslims believe about the Injil, the book revealed to Jesus? What was its general message? What language was it revealed in? How much of it is preserved in the gospels we have today, and is it possible to know what was originally in the Injil and what is later corruption?

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    Default Re: The Injil

    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    What do Muslims believe about the Injil, the book revealed to Jesus? What was its general message? What language was it revealed in? How much of it is preserved in the gospels we have today, and is it possible to know what was originally in the Injil and what is later corruption?
    All we do is speculate. To the best of my knowledge none of the actual Injil remains. It most likely would have been in Aramaic as that was the Language Jesus(as) spoke. There is a possibility that the words attributed to Jesus(as) that do not differ from the Qur'an are some of what was in the Injil. Based on that the Injil would have been a message containing the same basic truths as are in the Qur'an. There would have been some differences as the Injil was a specific message for a specific people, but there would be nothing in contradiction to the Qur'an.





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    Default Re: The Injil

    We believe in the ORIGINAL Injil, not the altered versions.

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    Default Re: The Injil

    About the original Injil, Allah(s.w.t.) says:
    Surah Maidah, 5:46
    And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

    Allah tells us that the original Injil contained 'guidance and light'. These are the qualities found in the Quran, and these are the qualities that the original Torah, which was sent to the Jews, contained, as Allah says:
    (5:44)
    It was We who revealed the Torah(to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

    So we believe that the original Torah and Injil contained 'guidance and light'. However, the Jews and Christians changed them according to their own desires, as Allah tells us:
    (5:12 and 13)
    Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve chieftains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he has truly wandered from the path of rectitude."

    But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor will you cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

    As for what we have today, we deny everything that is against the Quran and Sunnah to be from the original Torah and Injil. As for that portion which is not contrary to the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah, this is what the Messenger of Allah has commanded us:
    Dawud :: Book 25 : Hadith 3637
    Narrated AbuNamlah al-Ansari:

    When he was sitting with the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and a Jew was also with him, a funeral passed by him. He (the Jew) asked (Him): Muhammad, does this funeral speak? The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah has more knowledge. The Jew said: It speaks.

    The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Whatever the people of the Book tell you, do not verify them, nor falsify them, but say: We believe in Allah and His Apostle. If it is false, do not confirm it, and if it is right, do not falsify it.

    And here's something for you to consider, though the translation does grave grave injustice to the actual words of Allah:

    Surah Maryam (19:85-96)

    85 The day We shall gather the righteous to (Allah) Most Gracious, like a band presented before a king for honours,
    86 And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water,-
    87 None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from (Allah) Most Gracious.
    88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
    89 Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous!
    90 At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
    91 That they should ascribe a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.
    92 For it does not befit the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should take (to Himself) a son.
    93 Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant.
    94 He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly.
    95 And each one of them will come to Him on the Day of Resurrection, alone.
    96 On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (Allah) Most Gracious bestow love.

    I ask Allah to forgive me, and to guide you that you may be saved from the fire that is otherwise prepared for you.

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    Question Re: The Injil

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post
    All we do is speculate. To the best of my knowledge none of the actual Injil remains. It most likely would have been in Aramaic as that was the Language Jesus(as) spoke. There is a possibility that the words attributed to Jesus(as) that do not differ from the Qur'an are some of what was in the Injil. Based on that the Injil would have been a message containing the same basic truths as are in the Qur'an. There would have been some differences as the Injil was a specific message for a specific people, but there would be nothing in contradiction to the Qur'an.
    Thanks Woodrow for your reply. Do you think any of Jesus sayings found in Mark, Matthew, Luke and John could be accurate paraphrases of the original Aramaic? Indeed, do you think any of the information in these gospels about Jesus' life and ministry is accurate? Do you think it is possible to reconstruct the "Historical Jesus" as modern scholars have tried to do?

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    Default Re: The Injil

    Quote Originally Posted by OurIslamic View Post
    We believe in the ORIGINAL Injil, not the altered versions.
    I understand that, OurIslamic, and that is being assumed in this thread. Could you describe what you think the original Injil was like? Does any of it still survive?

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    Default Re: The Injil

    Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    Indeed, do you think any of the information in these gospels about Jesus' life and ministry is accurate?
    Yes it could be partly,but the story lines of Jesus can't be considered Injil ,In muslims terms ,Injil is the gospel of Jesus ,not a gospel about Jesus (Details later)...


    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    Could you describe what you think the original Injil was like? Does any of it still survive?
    that needs a long post ,wait for my next input inshaAllah...

    Regards

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    Default Re: The Injil

    Quote Originally Posted by Al-manar View Post
    Yes it could be partly,but the story lines of Jesus can't be considered Injil ,In muslims terms ,Injil is the gospel of Jesus ,not a gospel about Jesus (Details later)...

    that needs a long post ,wait for my next input inshaAllah...
    Look forward to more details, Al-manar! I completely understand that the Injil would not have contained details about Jesus' life, only the message he was given. Though, like the Qur'an, it could contain stories about previous prophets, perhaps?

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    Default Re: The Injil

    Thanks for these links, Danah. Could you perhaps summarise what those articles argue? What light do they shed on the nature of the Injil?

    [In the spirit of making this discussion open to people who might not have the time to read those two longish articles.]

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    Default Re: The Injil

    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    Thanks Woodrow for your reply. Do you think any of Jesus sayings found in Mark, Matthew, Luke and John could be accurate paraphrases of the original Aramaic? Indeed, do you think any of the information in these gospels about Jesus' life and ministry is accurate? Do you think it is possible to reconstruct the "Historical Jesus" as modern scholars have tried to do?
    Just my opinion, but I believe that some of the words of Jesus in the 4 Gospels are translations of what Jesus(as) said. But if they were from the Injil that was given to him or his own thoughts we have no way of knowing.

    The Lord's prayer was retained in the original Aramaic by the Coptic, Nazarenes and Sabians. It is believed by many John the Baptist was a Sabian. I find it quite interesting in Aramaic and it has a reasonable possibility of having been revealed in the Injil. However, without a copy of the actual Injil that can not be certain.

    Here it is in Aramaic with several translations.



    Abwűn
    "Oh Thou, from whom the breath of life comes,

    d'bwaschmâja
    who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.

    Nethkâdasch schmach
    May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.

    Tętę malkuthach.
    Your Heavenly Domain approaches.

    Nehwę tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha.
    Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates)
    just as on earth (that is material and dense).

    Hawvlân lachma d'sűnkanân jaomâna.
    Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need,

    Waschboklân chaubęn wachtahęn aikâna
    daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabęn.
    detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma)
    like we let go the guilt of others.

    Wela tachlân l'nesjuna
    Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations),

    ela patzân min bischa.
    but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose.

    Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn.
    From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act,
    the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.

    Amęn.
    Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
    (I confirm with my entire being)


    Here is the link I copied that from, it also has a few other translations.

    http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

    It is interesting to note how the translations differ
    over the centuries.





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    Default Re: The Injil

    That's really interesting, Woodrow, thanks. Do you have a reference for the original Aramaic you quoted?

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    Default Re: The Injil

    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    That's really interesting, Woodrow, thanks. Do you have a reference for the original Aramaic you quoted?
    That is in the link I posted. You will find the same Aramaic in the Aramic Coptic Bible. However, the oldest known Coptic in Aramaic was printed in about the 4th Century and it is often alleged it is the Latin Vulgate translated into Aramaic.

    Aramaic is a neat language. Sort of mid way between Arabic and Hebrew. Most Aramaic speakers have no difficulty in understanding Arabic and Hebrew. Those of us who are familiar with Arabic can understand spoken Aramaic but have trouble with written Aramaic.

    I will try to find The Coptic Aramaic. Many of todays Coptic churches use what is called the Coptic language and bears a closer resemblance to Greek than to Aramaic.

    This page is quite accrate in the transliteration and pronunciation. But the translation is very erroneous.

    http://www.barefootsworld.net/lordpray.html

    If you scroll down a bit you will see it written in old Aramaic Script, which is so similar with Arabic that if you can read Arabic you can read it. My Arabic is only so-so and I have no trouble reading it.

    Abwun is not Father. it is a word that denotes a parent that is neither male nor female, Birther or creator are better translations.Father in Aramaic is Abba

    This link may help

    http://www.barefootsworld.net/godsnames.html





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    Default Re: The Injil

    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    Thanks for these links, Danah. Could you perhaps summarise what those articles argue? What light do they shed on the nature of the Injil?

    [In the spirit of making this discussion open to people who might not have the time to read those two longish articles.]
    Okay its hard to summarize all what what was mentioned in both links since they covered many important issues, but here is an important part of the first link I pasted here you may be interested in:

    With regard to the Gospels that the Christians have, there are four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are agreed that Luke and Mark did not see the Messiah, rather he was seen by Matthew and John. These four accounts which they call the Gospel, and they call each one of them a Gospel, were written by these men after the Messiah had been taken up into heaven. They did not say that they are the word of God or that the Messiah conveyed them from God, rather they narrated some of the words of the Messiah and some of his deeds and miracles. End quote.

    Moreover, these books which were written after the time of the Messiah did not remain in their original form. The original versions were lost long ago. Ibn Hazm said:

    With regard to the Christians, there is no dispute among them or anyone else that only one hundred and twenty men believed in the Messiah during his lifetime… and all of those who believed in him concealed themselves and were afraid during his lifetime and afterwards; they called people to his religion in secret and none of them disclosed himself or practised his religion openly, because any of them who was caught was executed.

    They continued in this manner, not showing themselves at all, and they had no place where they were safe for three hundred years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven.

    During this time, the Gospel that had been revealed from Allaah disappeared, apart from a few verses which Allaah preserved as proof against them and as a rebuke to them, as we have mentioned. Then when the Emperor Constantine became a Christian, then the Christians prevailed and started to practise their religion openly and assemble in safety.

    If a religion is like this, with its followers practicing it in secret and living in constant fear of the sword, it is impossible for things to be transmitted soundly via a continuous chain of narrators and its followers cannot protect it or prevent it from being distorted.
    btw, those were not articles, but questioned asked and qualified scholars replied to them.
    I will try to see the other link to see if I can quote anything you might interest it. But I highly recommend you to read them so you may get a clear answer for your questions they are not too long after all.


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    Default Re: The Injil

    What does the Quran tell about the Injil?



    [003:048] "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Injil.

    [005:046] And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Injil: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.


    [005:110] Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Injil and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'


    [007:157] "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Torah and the Injil;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."



    [009:111] God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Torah, the Injil, and the Quran'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God?

    [048:029] Muhammad is the apostle of God; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from God and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Injil is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. God has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

    [057:027] Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our apostles: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Injil; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of God; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.

    [005:047] Let the people of the Injil judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

    3:93 All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."


    4:160 For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah's Way;-

    6:146 For those who followed the Jewish Law, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone: this in recompense for their wilful disobedience: for We are true (in Our ordinances).


    3:50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.


    43:63 When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.


    16:64 And We sent down the Book to thee(Mohamed) for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.


    5:15 O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-


    According to the verses:


    1-God taught Jesus not only the Injil but also the Torah , through Inspiration.

    2-The Injil was as every heavenly work, words of wisdom , guidance and light.

    3-The Injil was not a work of new Laws and not meant to abolish or modify totally the law of the Torah, but to abolish some hard laws that God recompensed the Jews with , for their wilful disobedience.

    4-The Injil, just as the Quran. Was also to make clear some matters, laws of dispute among the Jews…

    5-The Quran quotes the Injil and by its name, sometimes, as in (9-111) and [048:029] .

    6-The Quran names the Old & New Testament The Torah and The Injil as in (whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Torah and the Injil)


    7-The Quran confirms the Law(torah and injil) that had come before it, yet denies some of their contents ,in other words accepts them partly .


    but what it accepts and what it denies?

    To be continued

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    Default Re: The Injil

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post
    That is in the link I posted. You will find the same Aramaic in the Aramic Coptic Bible. However, the oldest known Coptic in Aramaic was printed in about the 4th Century and it is often alleged it is the Latin Vulgate translated into Aramaic.

    Aramaic is a neat language. Sort of mid way between Arabic and Hebrew. Most Aramaic speakers have no difficulty in understanding Arabic and Hebrew. Those of us who are familiar with Arabic can understand spoken Aramaic but have trouble with written Aramaic.

    I will try to find The Coptic Aramaic. Many of todays Coptic churches use what is called the Coptic language and bears a closer resemblance to Greek than to Aramaic.

    This page is quite accrate in the transliteration and pronunciation. But the translation is very erroneous.

    http://www.barefootsworld.net/lordpray.html

    If you scroll down a bit you will see it written in old Aramaic Script, which is so similar with Arabic that if you can read Arabic you can read it. My Arabic is only so-so and I have no trouble reading it.

    Abwun is not Father. it is a word that denotes a parent that is neither male nor female, Birther or creator are better translations.Father in Aramaic is Abba

    This link may help

    http://www.barefootsworld.net/godsnames.html
    The link says it's from the Kadish in the Talmud - i.e. 200-500 A.D. Are there any references before or during Jesus' lifetime?

    Also, rereading the article, the idea that Matthew wrote his "mistranslation" in the second century is absurd, as even the most liberal scholars place Matthew in the first century.

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    Default Re: The Injil

    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    The link says it's from the Kadish in the Talmud - i.e. 200-500 A.D. Are there any references before or during Jesus' lifetime?

    Also, rereading the article, the idea that Matthew wrote his "mistranslation" in the second century is absurd, as even the most liberal scholars place Matthew in the first century.
    At the moment I am only going to address your second Paragraph:

    Also, rereading the article, the idea that Matthew wrote his "mistranslation" in the second century is absurd, as even the most liberal scholars place Matthew in the first century.


    "The "Son of man" phrase moreover appears to be anachronistic. We have no evidence that it was ever applied to Jesus until the Gospel of Matthew came out. In all of Paul's epistles, he never once applied the phrase to Jesus. And in the epistles of Ignatius half a century later the phrase is never used as a title for Jesus. (We find elsewhere that Matthew was not written until some time after Ignatius's death.)"

    Source: http://www.proaxis.com/~deardorj/mt9.htm

    What the TJ is in the event you have not come across it before, these 2 links will help you see what it is even if you disagree with it's authenticity:

    http://www.tjresearch.info/

    http://www.tjresearch.info/contents.htm

    In the meantime I will look for some more links about the early "Lord's Prayer"





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    Default Re: The Injil

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post
    "The "Son of man" phrase moreover appears to be anachronistic. We have no evidence that it was ever applied to Jesus until the Gospel of Matthew came out. In all of Paul's epistles, he never once applied the phrase to Jesus. And in the epistles of Ignatius half a century later the phrase is never used as a title for Jesus. (We find elsewhere that Matthew was not written until some time after Ignatius's death.)"
    Ignatius died in 110 AD and knew Matthew's Gospel, so Matthew must be written before Ignatius' death.

    As for the Son of Man - Mark, Matthew and Luke are the best and earliest historical sources we have for Jesus' life, and all have him calling himself the Son of Man. Of course there is no evidence any earlier than the earliest evidence... Son of Man was used throughout the Jewish literature of Jesus' time, used as a way of saying "I", and as reference to the apocalyptic figure described in the OT. So the evidence suggests that it was highly likely that Son of Man was used by Jesus of himself given the radical claims he made.

    As for the "Talmud Jmmanuel"...complete hoax that noone can possibly take seriously. UFO connections to Jesus...

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    Default Re: The Injil

    Oops, "Ignatius died in 110 AD and knew Matthew's Gospel, so Matthew must be written before Ignatius' death." should be outside the quote.

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    El Habanero picante Array Woodrow's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Injil

    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    Oops, "Ignatius died in 110 AD and knew Matthew's Gospel, so Matthew must be written before Ignatius' death." should be outside the quote.
    No problem I will correct it,





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