Quran Memorization for Kids
Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: The Validity Of hadith?

  1. #1
    Account Disabled Array Balthasar21's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    325
    Threads
    11
    Reputation
    78
    Rep Power
    0

    Default The Validity Of hadith?


    Muslims recongize '' The Hadith's '' as powerful , And legit as The Qur'aan even though '' The Hadith's '' is only writtings of men , Written '' Hundreds '' of years after Muhammad's death , Such as ; Al Bukhari , Muslim , Tirmidhi , Abu Daa'uwd Etc .

    1 . Muhammad said to '' Drink Camel's Urine ! Can you imagine ( How Sick ) you will get from drinking the waste by products of a camel ! Something Is Wrong Whoever Said This Are Recorded This As Well !

    2 . There is a certain way you are supposed to , When , And how to Urinate , Which determies if you go to hell or paradise , If That Is The Case , Humans Shouldn't Think , Allah Should Just Created Human To Urinate A Certain Way Voluntarily . ( This Is Stupid .

    3 . This one scared me half to death , If you forget to wash out your mouth , Brush your teeth after eating , The Jinn ( Devils ) urinate in your mouth . You Will Get Bad Breath And Your Teeth Turn A Little Yellow , But You Sure Wont Have Any Pissy Breath ?

    4 . A baby palm tree cried like a baby because Muhammad used a pulpit to preach instead of standing beneath the tree until it stopped crying ( Vol . 2 . No . 41 ) . Have you ever heard of tree crying ? That's common sense , Unless it rained in the desert and the water fell down dripping off the tree . But , We all know that is not true .

    5 . The splitting of the moon in half ( Vol . 4 . No , 830 , 831 , 832 ) . If He Could Split The Moon In Half Why Did He Had To Fight To Convert Some Mortal Beings To His Religion ? Things That Make You Say 'Ummm ! .

    6 . When a man who was once ( A Muslims , And Then Reconverted Back To Christianity Died And Was Buried , The Earth Would Not Accept His Body , But Threw It Out Of The Grave! ( Vol . 4 , No . 814 ) < Tell And Show Me Any Record Of The Earth Ever Refusing Somebody's Body Because Of Their Religion , Race Or Color . How Did The Earth Mange To Do Such A Thing ? Does The Earth Have Arms And Finger ?

    7 . Gabriel opened Muhammad's chest and washed his inside with Zam - Zam Water . He took wisdom and faith and poured them into his chest and then closed it up . ( Vol. 1 . No . 345 ) , If you open somebody's chest , You must be a surgeon , And Gabriel is never mentioned as being a surgen . ( And If You Pour Water Into Your Chest , What Will Happen , YOU WILL DIE .

    8 . Muhammad cured a man with eye trouble by spitting in his eyes . The man never had eye trouble after that . ( Vol . 4 , No . 192 ) Saliva is from the human's Saliva glands within the mouth . The human being if he bites you . Has the worst bite out of the entire animal kingdom . So can you imagine the germs and filth from someone's Saliva ?

    9 . If a fly falls into your cup , Do not worry about it because Muhammad said that while one wing has the disease , The other has the antidote , So drink up . ( Vol . 4 , No . 537 ) Again , What type of person or persons would record such beliefs without saying oh no . This is embarrassing , This can't be true our prophet would say something so silly and ridiculous . ( A fly is a major carrier of germs and Diseases . ) Would you as a Muslim seriously eat one ? If so , Ypu are nasty and your prophet as well !!!

    10 . Dog lovers would not make good Muslims , ( Vol . 4 , No . 540 ) Muslims have dogs guarding their sheeps and cattle right now in africa and Middle Eastern Countries . So I'll say about 50% of current dog lovers are not good Muslims . Throw away that dog that helps you !

    11 . As for the resemblance of the child to its parents ; If a man has sexual intercource with his wife and gets a discharge first , The child will resemble the father , And if a woman gets her discharge first , The child will resemble her , ( Vol . 4 , No 546 ) . Everyone knows The XX Chromosome ( Is For A Girl ) or XY ( Is For A Boy ) ; Chromosomes from both parents play a huge significance on the resemblance of your children .

    12 . Bad breath means that Allah will not hear your prayers , You may not eat garlic or onions before going to prayers because Allah will not hear you with their smell on you breath . ( Vol , 1 , No . 812 ) Well , Probably 1,400 years ago , It was offensive to walk and make prayer with stink breath , But these days , We have '' Toothpaste , And Toothbrushes along with SCOPE , So , There is no need for a '' Mishwak '' Which loosen your teeth after awhile , And doesn't do a thing for your breath . There is no reason a modern Muslims breath to stink . Get some . '' Ma'juwn - Toothpaste '' And Sawwik Asnaauk Wa Lisanuk - ''' Brush Your Teeth And Tongue '' And Drink A Lot Of Water As Well !! .

    Quesl Why do Muslims have certain '' Hadiths '' That really make Muhammad Look Bad ?
    You will have some Muslims say 'Muhammad never look Bad . That's not so , When you read some of these '' Hadiths '' , Supposedly said by some of Muhammad's closest companions , Wives , Etc , Referring to Muhammad , It makes him look like a pervert , A dummy , An illogical and mean person , And Muhammad even in said '' Hadiths '' by muslims and Ibn Hanbal that no one shall take anything from him except Qur'aan , Shown below in The Ashuric / Syriac Arabic .

    As Saabi ' An Nahiy 'An Kitaabati Ghayri Al Qur'aan An Abiy Sa'iyd Al Khudriy Radiya Allahu' Anhu Qaala ; Qaala Rasuwl Allah Salla Allahu 'Alayhi Was Sallam ; '' Laa Taktubuw 'Aniy Shay'aan Siwa Al Qur'aan Man Kataba Shay'aan Siwaa Al Qur'aan Fal - Yamhuhu .

    The seventh -- The forbiddence of writing other than The Qur'aan '' Abiy Sa'yd Al Khudtiy May Allah Be Pleased With Him said that the sent from Allah Peace And Blessing Of Allah Be Upon Him Said '' Don't write nothing from me except The Quraan anyone who wrote anything other than Qur'aan '' Shall Erase It '' .

    Now , What do you have to say about that ? Your own peophet said not to write nothing about him , Except for The Quraan ! So , Obey Allah and his one sent , Muhammad ,

    For example , Why does Aisha , Muhammad's Wife In Hadith # 64 and 65 , Said And I Quote ; '' Narrated by 'Aisha she informed us that the prophet married her when she was 6 years old and he had sex with her when she was 9 years old and she remained with him 9 years ( Until His Death )
    Now , Hadith # 298 , Narrated by 'Aisha stated '' That the prophet fondled 'Aisha while she was on her menses ' ' And I Quote ; The prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while were junub , During the menses , He used to order me to put an Izar ( Dress Worn Below The Waist ) And used to Fondle me . While in Itikaf , He used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my Periods ( Menses ) .

    This is contradictory of what was revealed in Muhammad's Qur'aan from Allah . In Qur'aan 2 ; 222 , Where it says in part ; '' They ask thee concerning women's courses , Say ; They are a hurt and a pollution ; ( Keep Away From Women In Their Courses , And Do Not Approach Them Until They Are Clean ) .

    So , it not ME insulting your prophet Muhammad , It is you , Muslims who supports acknowledge and preach this ! You should have NEVER PERMITTED SUCH Hadith / Hadiths to be publicized , Whether they are true or no . That's Muhammad's personal Business ! His own P.B. Not E.E.B . ( Everyone Else's Business ) .

    Then again , In Hadith ( Vol, 3 , No . 826 ) It states the prophet said ; '' Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man ? ' The women said , '' Yes , '' He said '' This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind , '' Then Muhammad goes along to say , '' THERE ARE MORE WOMEN IN HELL THAN MEN , 'Justifying it by saying According to Hadith ( Vol . 2 . No . 541 , O women ! I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you ,

    That's your prophet Muhammad , No wonder women have half rights that of men in your Qur'aan And I Quote ; Qur'aan 4 ; 11 , In part ; God ( Thus ) Directs You As Regards Your Children's ( Inheritance ) ; < To The Male , A Portion Equal To That Of Two Females ; > Of Only Dauthers , < Two Or More , Their Share Is Two - Thirds Of The Inheritance ; If Only One , Her Share Is Half >

    Your so-called liberator of women didn't do much for Your Muslims Women , He gave women a little space to live by and for and called that [ Freedom ? ] And that's why there is so much suppression and misery amongst woman in Islam , Because of Hadiths like this and back up by Muhammad's Chauvinistic ways in Qur'aan . This is backed up as well in A Hadith By Ibn Qayyim Al Jawziyya In Zad Al - Ma'ad ( Part V , Page 189 ) We read '

    ''In sound tradition , Muhammad called ( Woman A 'Aniya , '' The 'Ani ' Is A Prisoner Of War ( Or Captive ) , The Duty Of The Captive Is To Serve His Master ) . There Is No Doubt That Marriage Is A Sort Of Slavery As One Of The Former Scholars Indicated ; Marraiage Is Slavery , Thus Let Each One Of You Be Sure Of The Man To Whom You Would Like To Enslave Your Daughter, ''

    This is cruelity , Muhammad even divorced his wife , '' Sauda '' Because of her lack of beauty and then brought her back in his household , When she cried endlessly and pleaded with him to stay , By Proposing to give up spending her night with him , So he can spend the night with Aisha , That's sad , Why did he take her in the first place . Just for a one night stand ?


    Here's another one of your ridiculous Hadith attributed to Muhammad is . '' Whoever Wears Silk On Earth Will Never Wear It In Eternity ; And Whoever Drinks Wine On Earth Will Never Drink It In Eternity , '' ( Page 40 , Also Al Qurtubi In The Al Tadhkira ) . So why did Allah place these things here in the first place , To tempt his believers ? What about the so-called non-believers who wear silk and drink wine all of the time , And don't know nothing about Allah , His laws for and against wine and silk ? And if wine is such a bad thing here on earth , Where Muslims who have become drunk . Get beheaded and killed for drinking it , But wine is promised in paradise for those believers who get there ! Do you see the hypocrisy ;

    Which The Royal And Super - Rich Arabs do get away with all the time , As for The Silk Garments
    ( And Wine ) . Qur'aan 76 ; 21 , Says and I quote , '' Upon Them Will Be Green Garments Of ( Fine Silk ) And Heavy Brocade , And They Will Be Adorned With Bracelets Of Silver ; And Their
    ( Lord Will Give To Them To Drink Of A Wine Pure And Holy ) ,

    Yet , Another thing found here on earth , Who is going to be sewing all these garments for the people who will reach paradise ? So again , That doesn't make paradise such an unique place , It's just like earth . Allah Should Have Done Better , Mention Things In The Qur'aan Never Heard Of , To The Point That It Will Blow Your Mind , And Take You Away .

    Qur'aan 76 ; 21 ( Yusuf Ali's Translation )
    ''Upon them will be green garments of ( Fine Silk ) and heavy brocade , And they will be adorned with bracelets of silver ; And their ( Lord Will Give To Them ) To drink of a wine pure and holy ,

    Then again , Muhammad didn't have a sense of humor according to this Hadith ( Vol , 2 , No. 173 , ' Where an elderly man who watched Muhammad and his disciples bowing and touching their forehead to the dirt while reciting Suwrat An Najm . ( The Early Muslims Prided Themselves On Their Dirty Foreheads And Looked Down On All Other Forms Of Prayer ) . So when the old man saw their forheads becoming dirty , As A Joke , He Picked Up Some Dirt And Put It On His Forehead And Said , ( '' This Is Sufficient For Me '' ) . The old man was saying that if the important thing was to get dirt on your forhead when you pray . Then it would be a lot easier to pick up some dirt and smear it on your forhead .

    Ha ! Ha ! Obviously , The old man's joke was directed against the muslims pride over their dirty forheads . But Muhammad was not amused by the old man or his joke . The Hadith reacords that The Muslim Murdered The Old Man In Cold Blood . Now , Thats a shame , Would you kill someone who is joking with you , And if it was Muhammad's father , Abdullah or Abdullat , Do you think the same thing would have happened to him ? No you Muslim's Muhammad was a little bit too touchy ! This is also backed up in The Qur'aan when Muhammad frowned on and turned away from a blind man , name Abdullah Ibn Maktuwn who was trying earnestly , To ask Muhammad some questions concerning Islam , While he was talking with some Quraysh Tribal Chiefs . He got upset and turned away from him . But at the same time , Someone who wasn't earnest and was just seeking a way to make money ; Muhammad readily spoke to him , Who happened to be Waliyd Ibn Al Mughiyrah .

    Qur'aan 80 ; 1-10 ( Yusuf Ali's Translation)
    ( The prophet Muhammad ) FROWNED AND TRNED AWAY , Because there came to him the blind man ( Interrupting ) . But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow ( In Spiritual Understanding ) ? Or that he might receive admonition and the teaching might profit him ? As to one who regards himself as self - sufficient , To him dost thou attend ; Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not ( In spiritual understanding ) . But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly , And with fear ( In his heart ) , Of him was thou unmindful .


    In Hadith No . 593 , Vol . 4 '' The prophet Muhammad said this concerning Adam , '' The prophet said , '' Allah Created Adam , Making Him 60 Cubits Tall . That would make Adam Around 90 Feet Tall ! Was Adam As Tall As A 3 Story Building ? Come On , So how tall wa Eve , And Their children , And if they supposed to be are fore parents , Why aren't people today that tall ? And where does it say that in the Qur'aan , The Best Hadith Of Them All ? And how could the human body stand up and fuction with all that weight ? Can you see the stupidity , Inaccuracy and foolishness ?

  2. #2
    El Habanero picante Array Woodrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Marion, North Dakota
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    17,053
    Threads
    246
    Reputation
    161337
    Rep Power
    150

    Default Re: The Validity Of hadith?


    This thread has been moved over to here as it is not appropriate for the Comparative Religion Section. This is strictly a debate. I ask all members to refrain from replying to this until after a Mod or Mods has/have addressed the debate and concluded his/her refutation.

    NOTICE: ANY POSTS POSTED BY ANYONE BESIDES BALTHASAR AND AL-HABESHI WILL BE DELETED.
    Last edited by Woodrow; 06-18-2007 at 10:18 PM.





  3. #3
    Account Disabled Array Balthasar21's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    325
    Threads
    11
    Reputation
    78
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: The Validity Of hadith?


    Quote Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post
    This thread has been moved over to here as it is not appropriate for the Comparative Religion Section. This is strictly a debate. I ask all members to refrain from replying to this until after a Mod or Mods has/have addressed the debate and concluded his/her refutation.




    I Overstand


    Shukran Jaziylan

  4. #4
    IB Oldskool Array Umar001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    5,534
    Threads
    198
    Reputation
    24588
    Rep Power
    72

    Default Re: The Validity Of hadith?


    Hi Balthasar,

    I have finally got round to write a reply, I hope you be patient with me since I can take a while sometimes due to prior engagements. I would like to stipulate some conditions, maybe already mentioned before,

    1. Only you and I will be able to post in the dialogue, to avoid confusion and also the thread going off topic.
    2. That we stick to this thread exclusively, i.e. no taking this topic out of here until we finish the discussion.
    3. No vulgar language, we are both humans, and I will assume you have good intentions and I believe I have also, our common goal should thus be to discover the truth, where ever it may lie, so we shouldn’t take pleasure if we see the other on what we believe is the wrong path.


    With regards to the topic, I have a couple of questions which I feel necessary to be cleared before we can discuss this matter further. What is meant by validity? Are we talking about whether the Sunnah is a valid source from a Muslim’s point of view? Which would mean the discussion would entail providing proof from the Qur’an that the Sunnah should be followed. Or do you mean are Hadith valid from a neutral point of view which would entail providing evidences for the reliability of hadith only and not delving into whether the Qur’an speaks about following them.


    As for the hadith you have quoted, they do not provide any weight to the topic, since they are mainly matters of belief. If you want to discuss ‘how can a Muslim believe these’ then it is simple, since a Muslim believes Muhammad is a prophet, then his words are true. They only provide a shock effect.

    So to move forth, please clarify what you mean by are hadith valid, do you mean ‘are they to be followed according to the Qur’an’ or do you mean ‘how can we be sure they are truly the saying of the Prophet’? Or is there another meaning. Once that is done you can explain what the reasons behind posting the ahadith (p.hadith) is. After that maybe if you can also post the references, some quotes say volume such and such but do not mention the actual book, i.e. Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawud, Tirmithy…ect.

    We can discuss the time of the recording of hadith. You seem to be under the impression that Bukhari and the likes were the first to record them.

    Also, with regards to some of the believes held in the ahadith, since you have not shown your religion I don't know if you believe in the Qur'an, but the Qur'an says ants spoke to Sulaiman, the Qur'an says the Earth spoke, those found in the Qur'an are just as 'ridiculous' to an athiest as a tree crying. So if you are to reject ahadith based on 'intelect' then surely some Qur'anic verse are to be rejected? I say no, since I believe in the truthfulness of Muhammed I thus believe his words and the ones he relayed to us from God Almighty.

    So why don't we take each of these and run through them after you decided which type of validity you want to light to be shed on and you provide exact references, so we can identify them.

    P.s. I would more appropiatly classify this as a mere discussion, not a debate as such since I am not that qualified. But none the less,

    I hope this becomes fruitful,

    Regards,

    Eesa.


    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

  5. #5
    Account Disabled Array Balthasar21's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    325
    Threads
    11
    Reputation
    78
    Rep Power
    0

    Question Re: The Validity Of hadith?


    Balthasar < Says > First I would like to say I hope we're able to Agree to Disagree Also I don't deal in Belief's / Faith / Believe ,But if thats your thing it cool with me , But don't expect me to see things the same way you do. Also as I Have said many time before I not here to convert anyone to my way of Seeing Things , Keyword here ( Convert ) Nor am I here to be ( Converted ) . As I have said in the Beginning I'm only here to learn and share , Meaning Learn what , The diffrent school of though and their Teaching / Translation / Interpretaion / Why . If All Muslims Are Brother's Why are their so many diffrent schools of though , When The Qur'aan Speaks Against Dividing Up Into Sects , Meaning Differrences Of OPINIONS , Quraan 23 ; 52 - 53 ( Yusef Ali ) And I Quote ; '' And Verily This Brotherhood Of Yours Is A ( Single Brotherhood ) And I Am Your Lord And Cherisher ; Therefore Fear Me ( And No Other ) But People Have Cut Of Their Affair ( Of Unity ) Between Them Into Sect ; Each Party Rejoices In That Which Is With Itself ,

    Al Habeshi < Says > I have finally got round to write a reply, I hope you be patient with me since I can take a while sometimes due to prior engagements. I would like to stipulate some conditions, maybe already mentioned before,


    Al Habeshi < Says > 1. Only you and I will be able to post in the dialogue, to avoid confusion and also the thread going off topic.

    Balthasar < Says > It's Cool .

    Al Habeshi < Says > 2. That we stick to this thread exclusively, i.e. no taking this topic out of here until we finish the discussion.

    Balthasar < Says > I Have no power to Remove / Delete any post --- It's cool .

    Al Habeshi < Says > 3. No vulgar language, we are both humans, and I will assume you have good intentions and I believe I have also, our common goal should thus be to discover the truth, where ever it may lie, so we shouldn’t take pleasure if we see the other on what we believe is the wrong path.

    Balthasar < Says > I have no Problem Respecting those who Respect Me , ( I don't deal in Belief's / Faith / Believe ) ,But if thats your thing it cool with me , Just Because I Don't Believe / Belief / Faith Has You do , Doesn't Make Me ( Anti - Islaamic / Anti -Christian / Atheist Which Really Is A - Against '' And Thehos - ''Gods '' In The Greek Language . So The Word '' A '' Means -- '' Against '' And '' Thehos'' Means '' Those Against God / Allah / Yahuwa Etc Etc .

    Al Habeshi < Says > With regards to the topic, I have a couple of questions which I feel necessary to be cleared before we can discuss this matter further. What is meant by validity? Are we talking about whether the Sunnah is a valid source from a Muslim’s point of view? Which would mean the discussion would entail providing proof from the Qur’an that the Sunnah should be followed. Or do you mean are Hadith valid from a neutral point of view which would entail providing evidences for the reliability of hadith only and not delving into whether the Qur’an speaks about following them.



    Balthasar < Says >Main Entry: val&#183;id
    Function: adjective
    Pronunciation: 'va-l&d
    Etymology: Middle French or Medieval Latin; Middle French valide, from Medieval Latin validus, from Latin, strong, from valere
    1 : having legal efficacy or force ; especially : executed with the proper legal authority and formalities <a valid contract>
    2 a : well-grounded or justifiable : being at once relevant and meaningful <a valid theory> b : logically correct <a valid argument> <valid inference>
    3 : appropriate to the end in view : EFFECTIVE <every craft has its own valid methods>
    4 of a taxon : conforming to accepted principles of sound biological classification
    - va&#183;lid&#183;i&#183;ty/v&-'li-d&-te, va-/ noun
    - val&#183;id&#183;ly/'va-l&d-le/ adverb
    synonyms VALID , SOUND , COGENT , CONVINCING , TELLING mean having such force as to compel serious attention and usually acceptance. VALID implies being supported by objective truth or generally accepted authority <a valid reason for being absent> <a valid marriage>. SOUND implies a basis of flawless reasoning or of solid grounds <a sound proposal for reviving the economy>. COGENT may stress either weight of sound argument and evidence or lucidity of presentation <the prosecutor's cogent summation won over the jury>. CONVINCING suggests a power to overcome doubt, opposition, or reluctance to accept <a convincing argument for welfare reform>. TELLING stresses an immediate and crucial effect striking at the heart of a matter <a telling example of bureaucratic waste>. ( Also Showing Where In The Qur'aan It say To Do These Things / Back Up The Hadith's In Question , Meaning To ( DO / FOLLOW / SUCH Hadith's Pertaining In The Above Post .


    Al Habeshi < Says > As for the hadith you have quoted, they do not provide any weight to the topic, since they are mainly matters of belief. If you want to discuss ‘how can a Muslim believe these’ then it is simple, since a Muslim believes Muhammad is a prophet, then his words are true. They only provide a shock effect.

    Balthasar < Says > The Name Of This Post Is ( The Validity Of hadith? ) Meaning Are Muslims Following The Above Hadith's If Not Why Not . So Yes This Is The Topic ( The Validity Of hadith? ) .


    Al Habeshi < Says > So to move forth, please clarify what you mean by are hadith valid, do you mean ‘are they to be followed according to the Qur’an’ or do you mean ‘how can we be sure they are truly the saying of the Prophet’? Or is there another meaning. Once that is done you can explain what the reasons behind posting the ahadith (p.hadith) is. After that maybe if you can also post the references, some quotes say volume such and such but do not mention the actual book, i.e. Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawud, Tirmithy…ect.


    Balthasar < Says > The Above Hadith's Can be found By The Author Who Names I Given You , So You Can Look Them Up , This Way You Can See If IMade Them Up Or Not . < Sound Like The Same Question Put Another Way > Also If You Read The Whole Post You Know I Gave You This Information . So Please Read It Again . Example < The splitting of the moon in half ( Vol . 4 . No , 830 , 831 , 832 ) . If He Could Split The Moon In Half Why Did He Had To Fight To Convert Some Mortal Beings To His Religion ? Things That Make You Say 'Ummm ! . >

    Al Habeshi < Says >? We can discuss the time of the recording of hadith. You seem to be under the impression that Bukhari and the likes were the first to record them.

    Balthasar < Says > I'm Only Interested In The Above Hadith's , Being They're Thousand's Upon Thousand's Of Them ,Matter Of Fact They're More Hadith's Verses Then They're Quraan Vesse. I Have Never Stated Who Was The First Hadith Writer Or The Last Hadith Writer . That Not The Topic Here .The Topic Is The Validity Of hadith? . For The Record I Never Claim To Know Everything About Islam .

    Al Habeshi < Says >? Also, with regards to some of the believes held in the ahadith, since you have not shown your religion I don't know if you believe in the Qur'an, but the Qur'an says ants spoke to Sulaiman, the Qur'an says the Earth spoke, those found in the Qur'an are just as 'ridiculous' to an athiest as a tree crying. So if you are to reject ahadith based on 'intelect' then surely some Qur'anic verse are to be rejected? I say no, since I believe in the truthfulness of Muhammed I thus believe his words and the ones he relayed to us from God Almighty.

    Balthasar < Says > Names / Label , Like Athiest / Devil / Not Save Etc Etc . Is Another Way For People Of Religion Who Think They Have A Right To Judge Other's , But What Funny Is They Judge Each Other , No Where Does The Creator Be It God / Allah / Yahuwa Etc Etc , Ever Says If Your Christian Your Not Going To Hell , And If Your A Muslim You're , Nor Does The Creator Say If Your Muslim Your Not Going To Hell , And If Your Christian You're Going To Hell . That Man Who Says These Things , Not The Creator . You Even Have To People Even Say Are You A Shame / Fear God Etc Etc . LOLOLOLOL , Also Sermon / Testimony Doesn't Answer Question , They're For Converting / Recruiting Only , Other Wise They Wouldn't Be Use . One Doesn't Have To Belong To Any Belief System To Discuss Religion .


    Al Habeshi < Says > So why don't we take each of these and run through them after you decided which type of validity you want to light to be shed on and you provide exact references, so we can identify them.

    Balthasar < Says > Ok When you Have Answer The Whole Post I Will Give You My Answer .

    Al Habeshi < Says > P.s. I would more appropiatly classify this as a mere discussion, not a debate as such since I am not that qualified. But none the less,

    Balthasar < Says > LOLOLOLOLOLOL Ok


    The Name Of This Post Is ( ( The Validity Of hadith? ) . All Other Question Other Than The VALIDITY OF HADITH'S . Is Getting Off The Topic ,


    After I Receive Your Answer From The Above Post ( The Validity Of Hadith ? ) I Will Give You My Annswer . Meaning The Whole Post Ok
    Last edited by Balthasar21; 06-19-2007 at 07:38 PM.

  6. #6
    IB Oldskool Array Umar001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    5,534
    Threads
    198
    Reputation
    24588
    Rep Power
    72

    Default Re: The Validity Of hadith?


    Hi,

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    Balthasar < Says > First I would like to say I hope we're able to Agree to Disagree Also I don't deal in Belief's / Faith / Believe ,But if thats your thing it cool with me , But don't expect me to see things the same way you do.
    Of course, it's refreshing to hear that. I can only but put forth my views with their evidences for why I believe such.


    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    ( Also Showing Where In The Qur'aan It say To Do These Things / Back Up The Hadith's In Question , Meaning To ( DO / FOLLOW / SUCH Hadith's Pertaining In The Above Post .
    When asked what is meant by validity, I did not mean to ask what is the meaning of validity. Rather, how is the word validty to be understood within the context of the Title. I have though from another part of your post understood the context, i.e.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    Balthasar < Says > The Name Of This Post Is ( The Validity Of hadith? ) Meaning Are Muslims Following The Above Hadith's If Not Why Not . So Yes This Is The Topic ( The Validity Of hadith? ) .
    In reply; To answer the question I would say Muslims should and some do follow every authentic hadith that they know of. But I'll also say, whether the Muslims are following the hadith does not render any hadith valid or invalid, unless there is a statement within the hadith itself that puts the following of it as a distinguishing factor for its validity.

    Meaning statement A can be valid whether 0 people follow it or 100 people follow it, unless, statement A stipulates that "if noone follows this statement it is invalid".

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    ( Also Showing Where In The Qur'aan It say To Do These Things / Back Up The Hadith's In Question , Meaning To ( DO / FOLLOW / SUCH Hadith's Pertaining In The Above Post .
    Taken from above, I would just like to add in reply to this, the Qur'an does not individually state every single act the Prophet done and say 'This act right here follow that' and 'when the prophet does this act follow that' rather in several places states that the Prophet should be followed in general. I will give a short sample of those verses here;

    ....And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and fear Allāh. Verily, Allāh is Severe in punishment. (Al-Hashr 59:7)

    Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allāh and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)." But if they turn away, then Allāh does not like the disbelievers. (Aali Imran 3:32)

    He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allāh, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) as a watcher over them. (An-Nisa 4:80)

    But more crucially to the point, you asked,

    Also Showing Where In The Qur'aan It say To Do These Things / Back Up The Hadith's In Question , Meaning To ( DO / FOLLOW / SUCH Hadith's Pertaining In The Above Post .

    This is the same question asked to a companion of Muhammad, when he mentioned the prohibition of something by Muhammad, which was not found in the Qur'an,

    From Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 408:

    Narrated Alqama:

    'Abdullah (bin Masud) said. "Allah curses those ladies who practice tattooing and those who get themselves tattooed, and those ladies who remove the hair from their faces and those who make artificial spaces between their teeth in order to look more beautiful whereby they change Allah's creation." His saying reached a lady from Bani Asd called Um Yaqub who came (to Abdullah) and said, "I have come to know that you have cursed such-and-such (ladies)?" He replied, "Why should I not curse these whom Allah's Apostle has cursed and who are (cursed) in Allah's Book!" Um Yaqub said, "I have read the whole Quran, but I did not find in it what you say." He said, "Verily, if you have read it (i.e. the Quran), you have found it. Didn't you read:

    'And whatsoever the Apostle gives you take it and whatsoever he forbids you, you abstain (from it). (59.7)

    She replied, "Yes, I did," He said, "Verily, Allah's Apostle forbade such things."
    "She said, "But I see your wife doing these things?" He said, "Go and watch her." She went and watched her but could not see anything in support of her statement. On that he said, "If my wife was as you thought, I would not keep her in my company."

    So we see that the commandments and prohibitions given by Muhammad, i.e. those found in the authentic ahadith, are in fact endorsed in general by the Qur'an, as can be seen by the reply of the companion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    The Above Hadith's Can be found By The Author Who Names I Given You , So You Can Look Them Up , This Way You Can See If IMade Them Up Or Not . < Sound Like The Same Question Put Another Way > Also If You Read The Whole Post You Know I Gave You This Information . So Please Read It Again . Example < The splitting of the moon in half ( Vol . 4 . No , 830 , 831 , 832 ) . If He Could Split The Moon In Half Why Did He Had To Fight To Convert Some Mortal Beings To His Religion ? Things That Make You Say 'Ummm ! . >
    The author names you gave me if I am not mistakes are:

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    Muslims recongize '' The Hadith's '' as powerful , And legit as The Qur'aan even though '' The Hadith's '' is only writtings of men , Written '' Hundreds '' of years after Muhammad's death , Such as ; Al Bukhari , Muslim , Tirmidhi , Abu Daa'uwd Etc .
    Not only did you mention 4 books, each containing loads of hadith each, but you said Etc which cound mean you are naming dozens of hadith compilations, each which can hold upto thousands of hadith. You really expect me to sit here and go through the whole of books looking for them? Be reasonable, if you wrote the article or post, then I am sure you have verified the hadith, so all you'd have to do is tell me the books of each hadith quoted, instead of just saying Vol...Number...That's all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    I Have Never Stated Who Was The First Hadith Writer Or The Last Hadith Writer . That Not The Topic Here .The Topic Is The Validity Of hadith? . For The Record I Never Claim To Know Everything About Islam .
    What you did state was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    Muslims recongize '' The Hadith's '' as powerful , And legit as The Qur'aan even though '' The Hadith's '' is only writtings of men , Written '' Hundreds '' of years after Muhammad's death , Such as ; Al Bukhari , Muslim , Tirmidhi , Abu Daa'uwd Etc .
    This gives the impression to the reader who might not know better that the hadith were thought up or first written hundreds of years later. So if you wish not to discuss the origins of hadith, then do not make such misinformed statements.



    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    One Doesn't Have To Belong To Any Belief System To Discuss Religion .
    Of course one doesn't. But if you overstood my point, I was asking since depending on one's current beliefs the answer might be voiced differently, a Christian who asks a Muslim, how can you believe trees wept (as mentioned in the hadith) can be given the reply, 'dont you believe Jesus was born from a virgin, its a miracle!' Where as this answer would not satisfy one who does not believe in Jesus' miracle birth. That was my point.

    So to recap;

    1. To your demand to show 'Where In The Qur'aan It say To Do These Things / Back Up The Hadith's In Question' I have replied with the verses and more importantly statement of the Companion showing that all statements of the Prophet are endorsed by the Qur'an.

    2. To the question' Meaning Are Muslims Following The Above Hadith's If Not Why Not .' I have replied that validity of something is not shown by the people following it unless that is a stipulated condition.

    3. I have asked again for the direct references, including the Book names, not just vol number and hadith number which could mean they could be in any book.

    Regards,

    Abdullah, Eesa.


    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

  7. #7
    Account Disabled Array Balthasar21's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    325
    Threads
    11
    Reputation
    78
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: The Validity Of hadith?


    With all do respect you have this ( Habit ) of changeing what I'm saying to what you want me to say , then you call yourself answering the question your way . If your going to ( Disagree ) Its Cool . But don't try to flip what I'm saying oK .

    Question ; Does the ( Sect Of Muslims You Follow ) Acccept / Follow the Hadith's in my post Yes / No ?

    Is the above post the answer to the whole post I written Yes / No ?
    When your done answering the whole post I will give you reson why I post the above . It look's like your trying to draw this thing out the answer is an easy one Yes / or No , Meaning Yes Muslims accept and follow all the Hadith's or No they don't accept all Hadith's and don't follow any of them ,

    ( By The Way Christian don't follow any of the Muslims Hadith's so let not use the christian as and example ok , Because according to you Muslims shouldn't even read their scriptures )




    Al Habeshi < Says >? We can discuss the time of the recording of hadith. You seem to be under the impression that Bukhari and the likes were the first to record them.

    Balthasar < Says > I'm Only Interested In The Above Hadith's , Being They're Thousand's Upon Thousand's Of Them ,Matter Of Fact They're More Hadith's Verses Then They're Quraan Vesse. I Have Never Stated Who Was The First Hadith Writer Or The Last Hadith Writer . That Not The Topic Here .The Topic Is The Validity Of hadith? . For The Record I Never Claim To Know Everything About Islam .


    When I see that you have ANSWER the whole post then I'll reply until then .

    Araaka Fiy Maa Bad In Shaa - A Allah

  8. #8
    IB Oldskool Array Umar001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    5,534
    Threads
    198
    Reputation
    24588
    Rep Power
    72

    Default Re: The Validity Of hadith?


    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    With all do respect you have this ( Habit ) of changeing what I'm saying to what you want me to say , then you call yourself answering the question your way . If your going to ( Disagree ) Its Cool . But don't try to flip what I'm saying oK .
    What did I change? If you can clarify which part I have changed then I'll apologise if I indeed have changed anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    Question ; Does the ( Sect Of Muslims You Follow ) Acccept / Follow the Hadith's in my post Yes / No ?
    Do you read at all the replies? I stated:

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    So we see that the commandments and prohibitions given by Muhammad, i.e. those found in the authentic ahadith, are in fact endorsed in general by the Qur'an, as can be seen by the reply of the companion.
    Is it so hard to understand from that ANY HADITH WHICH IS AUTHENTIC I follow, and is obligatory upon every Muslim to follow. So any hadith you posted that are authentic I follow, hope you understand that.

    But you have not posted the references to each, so we do not even know the authenticity of any of the hadith, see, that's why I asked you to post the references, is it that hard of a job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    Is the above post the answer to the whole post I written Yes / No ?
    When your done answering the whole post I will give you reson why I post the above . It look's like your trying to draw this thing out the answer is an easy one Yes / or No , Meaning Yes Muslims accept and follow all the Hadith's or No they don't accept all Hadith's and don't follow any of them ,
    You gave only two options,

    1. Yes Muslims accept and follow all the hadith.
    2. No They do not accept all hadith and dont follow any of them.

    Maybe you should revise your proposed answers, let me help you, we Muslims dont accept all hadith, meaning the authentic and unauthentic, we only follow and accept all the ones which are authentic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    ( By The Way Christian don't follow any of the Muslims Hadith's so let not use the christian as and example ok , Because according to you Muslims shouldn't even read their scriptures )
    Who said they did? I stated that the answer could be voiced differently to a Christian since he believes in Miracles, where as a Athiest might not. That is all.

    You still have to provide the references, without which I cannot identify the authenticity of the hadith you posted, if you cannot find the references then say so. To quote my demand,

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    3. I have asked again for the direct references, including the Book names, not just vol number and hadith number which could mean they could be in any book.
    And as a point of clarification, you did not mention this part of my post in your reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    But more crucially to the point, you asked,

    Also Showing Where In The Qur'aan It say To Do These Things / Back Up The Hadith's In Question , Meaning To ( DO / FOLLOW / SUCH Hadith's Pertaining In The Above Post .

    This is the same question asked to a companion of Muhammad, when he mentioned the prohibition of something by Muhammad, which was not found in the Qur'an,

    From Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 408:

    Narrated Alqama:

    'Abdullah (bin Masud) said. "Allah curses those ladies who practice tattooing and those who get themselves tattooed, and those ladies who remove the hair from their faces and those who make artificial spaces between their teeth in order to look more beautiful whereby they change Allah's creation." His saying reached a lady from Bani Asd called Um Yaqub who came (to Abdullah) and said, "I have come to know that you have cursed such-and-such (ladies)?" He replied, "Why should I not curse these whom Allah's Apostle has cursed and who are (cursed) in Allah's Book!" Um Yaqub said, "I have read the whole Quran, but I did not find in it what you say." He said, "Verily, if you have read it (i.e. the Quran), you have found it. Didn't you read:

    'And whatsoever the Apostle gives you take it and whatsoever he forbids you, you abstain (from it). (59.7)

    She replied, "Yes, I did," He said, "Verily, Allah's Apostle forbade such things."
    "She said, "But I see your wife doing these things?" He said, "Go and watch her." She went and watched her but could not see anything in support of her statement. On that he said, "If my wife was as you thought, I would not keep her in my company."

    So we see that the commandments and prohibitions given by Muhammad, i.e. those found in the authentic ahadith, are in fact endorsed in general by the Qur'an, as can be seen by the reply of the companion.
    Should the reader thus assume you have then agreed that the Qur'an endorses the reader to follow the Prophet Muhammad?

    Regards,

    Eesa
    Last edited by Umar001; 06-22-2007 at 09:12 PM.


    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

  9. #9
    Spread this Avatar! Array - Qatada -'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    ...travelling to the hereafter..
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    11,120
    Threads
    782
    Reputation
    61525
    Rep Power
    100

    Default Re: The Validity Of hadith?





    sorry to disturb:

    http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ions-post.html



    you guys can continue insha Allaah.




  10. #10
    Account Disabled Array Balthasar21's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    325
    Threads
    11
    Reputation
    78
    Rep Power
    0

    Post Re: The Validity Of hadith?


    Quote Originally Posted by - Qatada - View Post



    sorry to disturb:

    http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ions-post.html



    you guys can continue insha Allaah.



    ( Al Habeshi / Qatada )

    First I like to say I love how You Both dance away from the Simple Yes / No Question , Meaning Do your Sect of muslims follow the above Hadith . Yes / No . Being Al Habeshi call himself Challiengeing me , No way did he think I would come up those '' Hadith's '' I knew he would come up with some type of Sermon / Or something from his Favorite Websites , Or try saying they

    were not Authentic Hadith's , When anyone can tell they are Authentic Hadith's and the Author of those Hadith's Names were giveing in the above post . Now it funny how ( Al Habeshi / Qatada ) can run to their Favorite Websites for answer that agree with their school of though , And say here the truth , That only proves my point that their Thousand Upon Thousands

    Of Hadith , And the diffrent sect Can't Agree On Which Hadith's they should follow . But you will hear them say well the Hadith's say this or that , They speak of the Hadith's / Muhammad more then the Quraan . When Do You Hear A Muslim say Allah Says This Or That , It Always What Men Say . I Thought Worship Was For Allah Only . That Why I Ask ( Al Habeshi / Qatada )

    show me where in the Quraan Allah says Follow The Above Hadith's .
    A Simple Question ether they are following the words of Men = Hadith's Writer Or The Words Of Allah . Which Still Haven't Been Answer Yet .

    I'll give the answer to the above question when the danceing stop . That if Qatada don't close / Delete / Remove the above post .

    By the way if you can go to Favorite Websites for answer that agree with you , Why is it that you can't find the above Hadith's . The names of the Author's are in the above post . this way you'll see they're Authentic Hadith's and not made up


    Araaka Fiy Maa Ba'd In Shaa A Allah

  11. #11
    IB Oldskool Array Umar001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    5,534
    Threads
    198
    Reputation
    24588
    Rep Power
    72

    Default Re: The Validity Of hadith?


    Hi,

    Still finding it hard to answer simple questions? Balthasar, you have outdone yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    ( Al Habeshi / Qatada )

    First I like to say I love how You Both dance away from the Simple Yes / No Question , Meaning Do your Sect of muslims follow the above Hadith . Yes / No .
    Do you find it such a difficulty in understanding? I will repost my post in the hope that you find the inspiration to answer and not sway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    Question ; Does the ( Sect Of Muslims You Follow ) Acccept / Follow the Hadith's in my post Yes / No ?
    Do you read at all the replies? I stated:

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    So we see that the commandments and prohibitions given by Muhammad, i.e. those found in the authentic ahadith, are in fact endorsed in general by the Qur'an, as can be seen by the reply of the companion.
    Is it so hard to understand from that ANY HADITH WHICH IS AUTHENTIC I follow, and is obligatory upon every Muslim to follow. So any hadith you posted that are authentic I follow, hope you understand that.

    But you have not posted the references to each, so we do not even know the authenticity of any of the hadith, see, that's why I asked you to post the references, is it that hard of a job?
    Anyhow can see that any hadith brought to me, I will need to know the authenticity of, if I don't know what hadith book it comes from how can I even know the authenticity?


    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    Being Al Habeshi call himself Challiengeing me , No way did he think I would come up those '' Hadith's '' I knew he would come up with some type of Sermon / Or something from his Favorite Websites , Or try saying they

    were not Authentic Hadith's ,
    Instead of predicting my moves, and calling my replies sermons why don't you refute or correct me, all you say is 'its obvious..' but you don't show anything. You have shown the inability to provide the direct sources, i.e. match the hadith with the individual book name it is found in and numbers which corrispond to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    When anyone can tell they are Authentic Hadith's and the Author of those Hadith's Names were giveing in the above post .
    You gave a list of names ending with ect. you wanted me to search over a dozen volumes when you could yourself just have provided them since I assume you read them before?

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    Now it funny how ( Al Habeshi / Qatada ) can run to their Favorite Websites for answer that agree with their school of though , And say here the truth , That only proves my point that their Thousand Upon Thousands

    Of Hadith , And the diffrent sect Can't Agree On Which Hadith's they should follow . But you will hear them say well the Hadith's say this or that , They speak of the Hadith's / Muhammad more then the Quraan . When Do You Hear A Muslim say Allah Says This Or That , It Always What Men Say . I Thought Worship Was For Allah Only . That Why I Ask ( Al Habeshi / Qatada )

    show me where in the Quraan Allah says Follow The Above Hadith's .
    A Simple Question ether they are following the words of Men = Hadith's Writer Or The Words Of Allah . Which Still Haven't Been Answer Yet .
    This is where you truly are showing your ignorance, first I have shown you where the Qur'an has endorsed the following of Muhammad. You have yet to reply to it, I asked you again whether your silence on the matter was approval and you have taken days and all you come up with is asking the question again and not replying to my answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    And as a point of clarification, you did not mention this part of my post in your reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    But more crucially to the point, you asked,

    Also Showing Where In The Qur'aan It say To Do These Things / Back Up The Hadith's In Question , Meaning To ( DO / FOLLOW / SUCH Hadith's Pertaining In The Above Post .

    This is the same question asked to a companion of Muhammad, when he mentioned the prohibition of something by Muhammad, which was not found in the Qur'an,

    From Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 408:

    Narrated Alqama:

    'Abdullah (bin Masud) said. "Allah curses those ladies who practice tattooing and those who get themselves tattooed, and those ladies who remove the hair from their faces and those who make artificial spaces between their teeth in order to look more beautiful whereby they change Allah's creation." His saying reached a lady from Bani Asd called Um Yaqub who came (to Abdullah) and said, "I have come to know that you have cursed such-and-such (ladies)?" He replied, "Why should I not curse these whom Allah's Apostle has cursed and who are (cursed) in Allah's Book!" Um Yaqub said, "I have read the whole Quran, but I did not find in it what you say." He said, "Verily, if you have read it (i.e. the Quran), you have found it. Didn't you read:

    'And whatsoever the Apostle gives you take it and whatsoever he forbids you, you abstain (from it). (59.7)

    She replied, "Yes, I did," He said, "Verily, Allah's Apostle forbade such things."
    "She said, "But I see your wife doing these things?" He said, "Go and watch her." She went and watched her but could not see anything in support of her statement. On that he said, "If my wife was as you thought, I would not keep her in my company."

    So we see that the commandments and prohibitions given by Muhammad, i.e. those found in the authentic ahadith, are in fact endorsed in general by the Qur'an, as can be seen by the reply of the companion.
    Should the reader thus assume you have then agreed that the Qur'an endorses the reader to follow the Prophet Muhammad?
    It's there for you Balthasar.

    Your equating of Hadith with the Words of Men is indicative of your ignorance on the subject at hand, where you would know, that the authentic ahadith [pl.hadith] are the words of Muhammad which the Qur'an endorses, they have been only preserved by men, same as the Qur'an has been preserved by men, men was one of the tools Allah used for preservation of his religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    By the way if you can go to Favorite Websites for answer that agree with you , Why is it that you can't find the above Hadith's . The names of the Author's are in the above post . this way you'll see they're Authentic Hadith's and not made up
    1. I didn't reply to those ahadith, Qatada did, if he wants to do his research he can, I rather get it from you so I don't end up reading the wrong hadith.

    2. Why has it been so difficult for you to find them?

    Having said the above, I have always thought to let you speak, maybe Balthasar might know something I said to myself, maybe he can correct me. But such thoughts were in vain.

    I will put forth proposals, which if you do not comply to you will be banned, not because we are 'scared of the truth' since all you have brought forward has already been discussed and brought here by people before you, not very original I must say, so that's not the reason.

    The request stands as:

    1. You provide fully and totally the references, like I have done, i.e. Sahih Al Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 408, for each of the hadith you have brought forward. If this is not done then it will be seen as preaching without knowledge which will result in your leaving.

    2. You accused me of changing what you said to what I wanted you to say, I replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    What did I change? If you can clarify which part I have changed then I'll apologise if I indeed have changed anything.
    Show what I changed/misinterpreted so that I may apologise, failure to show will result in your leaving.

    Balthasar, I cannot say I have much faith in a beneficial reply from yourself, it has been interesting meeting you and I hope that you manage to learn something someday. I will say that at least now it's clear, and everyone can see your 'truth'. And praise is to Almighty God for that.

    School time's over.


    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

  12. #12
    Account Disabled Array Balthasar21's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    325
    Threads
    11
    Reputation
    78
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: The Validity Of hadith?


    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    Hi,

    Still finding it hard to answer simple questions? Balthasar, you have outdone yourself.



    Do you find it such a difficulty in understanding? I will repost my post in the hope that you find the inspiration to answer and not sway.




    Anyhow can see that any hadith brought to me, I will need to know the authenticity of, if I don't know what hadith book it comes from how can I even know the authenticity?




    Instead of predicting my moves, and calling my replies sermons why don't you refute or correct me, all you say is 'its obvious..' but you don't show anything. You have shown the inability to provide the direct sources, i.e. match the hadith with the individual book name it is found in and numbers which corrispond to it.



    You gave a list of names ending with ect. you wanted me to search over a dozen volumes when you could yourself just have provided them since I assume you read them before?



    This is where you truly are showing your ignorance, first I have shown you where the Qur'an has endorsed the following of Muhammad. You have yet to reply to it, I asked you again whether your silence on the matter was approval and you have taken days and all you come up with is asking the question again and not replying to my answer.



    It's there for you Balthasar.

    Your equating of Hadith with the Words of Men is indicative of youron the subject at hand, where you would know, that the authentic ahadith [pl.hadith] are the words of Muhammad which the Qur'an endorses, they have been only preserved by men, same as the Qur'an has been preserved by men, men was one of the tools Allah used for preservation of his religion.



    1. I didn't reply to those ahadith, Qatada did, if he wants to do his research he can, I rather get it from you so I don't end up reading the wrong hadith.

    2. Why has it been so difficult for you to find them?

    Having said the above, I have always thought to let you speak, maybe Balthasar might know something I said to myself, maybe he can correct me. But such thoughts were in vain.

    I will put forth proposals, which if you do not comply to you will be banned, not because we are 'scared of the truth' since all you have brought forward has already been discussed and brought here by people before you, not very original I must say, so that's not the reason.

    The request stands as:

    1. You provide fully and totally the references, like I have done, i.e. Sahih Al Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 408, for each of the hadith you have brought forward. If this is not done then it will be seen as preaching without knowledge which will result in your leaving.

    2. You accused me of changing what you said to what I wanted you to say, I replied:



    Show what I changed/misinterpreted so that I may apologise, failure to show will result in your leaving.

    Balthasar, I cannot say I have much faith in a beneficial reply from yourself, it has been interesting meeting you and I hope that you manage to learn something someday. I will say that at least now it's clear, and everyone can see your 'truth'. And praise is to Almighty God for that.

    School time's over.


    Al Habeshi By saying that I'm showing my [ ignorance ] only showing your weakness little man that your are . Threading to banned me is a coward way out isn't it . You know the real reson why you want to banned me is you step on your lip with this one , Anyone who can read my post can see I gave the name of the hadith Writer / Vol where it can be found overstand .

    You problem now your trying to save face . The question was an easy one Yes / No do you follow the above hadith's yes / no no more no less . Now if you can't answer the question as it was put to you then banned me . Threading me doesn't get it . I told you this before , You of all people should know me by now that I wouldn't ask a question I could answer . So again do you follow the above haith's yes / or no .

  13. #13
    IB Oldskool Array Umar001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    5,534
    Threads
    198
    Reputation
    24588
    Rep Power
    72

    Default Re: The Validity Of hadith?


    Teacher Blathasar, you repeated:

    The question was an easy one Yes / No do you follow the above hadith's yes / no no more no less .

    I told you, if the above hadith are authentic I follow them, you said again:

    Anyone who can read my post can see I gave the name of the hadith Writer / Vol where it can be found overstand .

    The names you gave were unnumbered, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    Muslims recongize '' The Hadith's '' as powerful , And legit as The Qur'aan even though '' The Hadith's '' is only writtings of men , Written '' Hundreds '' of years after Muhammad's death , Such as ; Al Bukhari , Muslim , Tirmidhi , Abu Daa'uwd Etc .

    I told you, in a plea to tell me the book for each quotation:

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    After that maybe if you can also post the references, some quotes say volume such and such but do not mention the actual book, i.e. Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawud, Tirmithy…ect.
    You replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    Al Habeshi < Says > So to move forth, please clarify what you mean by are hadith valid, do you mean ‘are they to be followed according to the Qur’an’ or do you mean ‘how can we be sure they are truly the saying of the Prophet’? Or is there another meaning. Once that is done you can explain what the reasons behind posting the ahadith (p.hadith) is. After that maybe if you can also post the references, some quotes say volume such and such but do not mention the actual book, i.e. Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawud, Tirmithy…ect.


    Balthasar < Says > The Above Hadith's Can be found By The Author Who Names I Given You , So You Can Look Them Up , This Way You Can See If IMade Them Up Or Not . < Sound Like The Same Question Put Another Way > Also If You Read The Whole Post You Know I Gave You This Information . So Please Read It Again . Example < The splitting of the moon in half ( Vol . 4 . No , 830 , 831 , 832 ) . If He Could Split The Moon In Half Why Did He Had To Fight To Convert Some Mortal Beings To His Religion ? Things That Make You Say 'Ummm ! . >
    With literally thousands of hadith in the books names given each, I would have to go through each book of hadith, wasting hours of my time, when you could just tell me which book it is for each hadith since you have already seen recorded them, thus I replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    Not only did you mention 4 books, each containing loads of hadith each, but you said Etc which cound mean you are naming dozens of hadith compilations, each which can hold upto thousands of hadith. You really expect me to sit here and go through the whole of books looking for them? Be reasonable, if you wrote the article or post, then I am sure you have verified the hadith, so all you'd have to do is tell me the books of each hadith quoted, instead of just saying Vol...Number...That's all.
    You fail to adress matters, I brought you forth the quotation of the companion of Muhammad, who himself showed the Qur'an gives explicit approval of any hadith of the Prophet. It is a sunnah, path, of yours to do this, i.e. not respond to matters. In the thread about Muslims being Obligated to read the Bible, I mentioned a athar, clear cut, to Aaron which was a crucial evidence for Muslims. Not once did you refute it, but only spoke of verses which you failed to established as proof for your views,

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    I leave you with Ibn Abbas' words:

    Ibn Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Quran) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."

    Sahih Bukhari, Book 48, Number 850

    Regards
    A note, you see how I referenced it, I didn't say 'look in Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawod, Nisa'i, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi..ect Book 48 No 850' rather, I related the Book, i.e. Bukhari the Book within Bukhari and the Number, simple.

    I told you time and time again, I follow any hadith which is authentic. I asked you please provide full references to the ahadith so that I can check their authenticity, but you have failed to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21 View Post
    Question ; Does the ( Sect Of Muslims You Follow ) Acccept / Follow the Hadith's in my post Yes / No ?
    Do you read at all the replies? I stated:

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    So we see that the commandments and prohibitions given by Muhammad, i.e. those found in the authentic ahadith, are in fact endorsed in general by the Qur'an, as can be seen by the reply of the companion.
    Is it so hard to understand from that ANY HADITH WHICH IS AUTHENTIC I follow, and is obligatory upon every Muslim to follow. So any hadith you posted that are authentic I follow, hope you understand that.

    But you have not posted the references to each, so we do not even know the authenticity of any of the hadith, see, that's why I asked you to post the references, is it that hard of a job?
    You pronounced a begging to school, yet the best you came up with was some similarities in two religions. I wonder, could it be that they are similar since they have the same source? That alone defeats the claims brought forth, just like if two students had similar answers in a test, would it mean they copied? No, it could mean that they revised from the same book, one should study the differences between the two test papers. ;)

    You have brought forth the forum nothing but material which has been used for centuries by haters of Islam, according to your logic, i.e. that of similarity between the Qur'an and the Bible thus indicating copying, I would be justified in saying you copied those anti-Islam sites. But I merely asked what your source was, till this day you fail to provide a source for that which I asked a source for.

    Anyhow, it has been interesting meeting you, and I hope you have a successful life, peace be upon those who follow guidance, Walhamdulillah.

    It has been narrated to me that you have broken a rule, with your rude language, namely, the 'Pissy Breath' and so forth.

    9. Beef will not be tolerated in any forum. Differences in opinion are expected, but please debate respectfully. (Beef are comments made for the purpose of insulting somebody else with negative intent, looking for a negative reaction, or blatantly insulting somebody)

    On top of that you were asked to either bring the proper quotes, or say that you did not know of them. You failed this, thus this is another point against you.

    I leave you with this,

    And they will say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not have been among the dwellers of the blazing Fire!"

    Class Dismissed,

    Eesa.


    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

  14. #14
    IB Oldskool Array Umar001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    5,534
    Threads
    198
    Reputation
    24588
    Rep Power
    72

    Default Re: The Validity Of hadith?


    As Salam Aleykum,

    Just so everyone knows, I have banned the account, my first ever ban. Thought I'd mention it before we get some 'indipendent' new members shouting about freedom of speech. It has occoured to me that not only being trouble to some Muslims, there were also bones to pick with non Muslims, having recieved pms, it was clear to me this was not an anti islam thing.

    Anyhow, this will be left here according to my knowledge for anyone in the future to see and make their own mind up.

    Regards

    Eesa.


    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

Closed Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BACK TO TOP