Halal and Kosher

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · **Halal and Kosher -** 03-13-2005

To start off this discussion, I would just like to paste an article:

Quote:

Judaic and Islamic dietary laws have and do bring Jews and Muslims together. Both the Kosher and Halal signs and symbols have given solace to both minorities living in a majority secular or Christian society.

SIMILARITIES

In General
Of the animals that may be eaten, the birds and mammals must be killed in accordance with Scriptural Law.
All blood must be drained from the meat or broiled out of it before it is eaten.
Certain parts of permitted animals may not be eaten.
Utensils that have come into contact with non-kosher food may not be used with kosher food.

In Detail

In both Judaism and Islam, we have a wide variety of identical dietary laws:
The Torah
“..any animal that has cloven hooves and chews its cud." Lev. 11:3; Deut. 14:6

The Quran
"O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all cattle four-footed animals, with the exceptions named: But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb: for Allah doth command according to His will and plan.” Surah 5:1

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The Torah
"Of the things that are in the waters, you may eat anything that has fins and scales." Lev. 11:9; Deut. 14:9

The Quran
”Lawful to you is the pursuit of water-game and its use for food,- for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel.” Surah 5:96

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The Torah
The mammals and birds that may be eaten must be slaughtered in accordance with Jewish law. (Deut. 12:21)

The Quran
"Eat the meat of the animals on which name of Allah has been invoked, if you are believers." (6 :1 8)
"Do not eat meat of animal on which the name of Allah has not been invoked because this is an act of sin." (6 : 121)

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The Torah
We may not eat animals that died of natural causes. (Deut. 14:21)

The Quran
"Forbidden to you (as food) are dead animals.” (5 : 4)

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The Torah
Birds of prey or scavengers. (Lev. 11:13-19; Deut. 14:11-18)

Sayings of Prophet Muhammad
"Similarly, someone in ihram should not kill any predatory birds...” (Malik's Muwatta, Book 20:, Number 20.26.92)

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The Torah
Prohibits consumption of blood. (Lev. 7:26-27; Lev. 17:10-14)

The Quran
"Forbidden to you (for food)...blood. (5:3)

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The Torah
“And the swine, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. “ (Lev. 11:7)

The Quran
” He has only forbidden you ... the flesh of swine..." (16:115)

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The Torah
“Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.” (Lev. 10:9)

The Quran
"They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider.” (2:219)

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Therefore, the essential and core harmful substances have been preserved as forbidden in the Quran as it has been in the Torah.

SpaceFalcon2001 · **Re: Halal and Kosher -** 03-13-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Adl

“Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.” (Lev. 10:9)

That however is a misquote. That commandment is not to get drunk while we approach the holy of holies in the temple in Jerusalem.

Quote:

when you go into the Tent of Meeting We know only [that a kohen is forbidden] to enter the Heichal [after drinking wine]. How do we know that [this prohibition applies also to] approaching the altar [which is outside the Heichal]? [The answer is:] Here [in our verse] it speaks of “entering the Tent of Meeting.” Regarding washing the hands and feet [at the washstand-see Exod. 30:1721], “entering the Tent of Meeting” is [also] mentioned (verse 20). [Now, concerning washing, approaching the altar is regarded as similar to entering the Tent of Meeting insofar as both require washing the hands and feet, as it says, “When they enter the Tent of Meeting, they shall wash with water… or when they approach the altar to serve” (Exod. 30:20). Hence,] just as there [in the case of washing], Scripture made approaching the altar the same as entering the Tent of Meeting, here too, it made approaching the altar the same as entering the Tent of Meeting [insofar as both are equally prohibited when the kohen has drunk wine]. — [Torath Kohanim 10:37]

We Jews do not forbid wine, just the opposite, we are commanded often to drink it! As per the blessing "Blessed are you HaShem, our God, King of the universe, Who creates the fruit of the vine.
Another commandment:

Quote:

HaShem said,, "See, I give you every seed-bearing plant that is upon all the earth, and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit; they shall be yours for food."(Gen 2.29)

Further, it is a commandment to get intoxicated on Purim (an upcoming holiday)!
There are very few prohibitions on non-animalistic foods. They usually pertain on a certain person or place not to take them from. One of those few:

Quote:

Not to drink wine of idolaters (Deut. 32:38)

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · **Re: Halal and Kosher -** 03-13-2005

Interesting.
What about these passages:
Alcohol not holy: num 6:3, judg 13:4-7, ephes 5:15-18, hosea 4:11, 7:5, isaiah 19:14, 28:7-8, proverbs 23:29-35, Qur’an 2:219, 5:90

To all Christian friends- What are the restrictions given in Christianity?

SpaceFalcon2001 · 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Adl

Interesting.
What about these passages:
Alcohol not holy: num 6:3

Don't ignore 6:2

Quote:

Speak to the children of Israel, and you shall say to them: A man or woman who sets himself apart by making a nazirite vow to abstain for the sake of the Lord.
---------------------------
Commentary:
who sets himself apart Heb. כִּי יַפְלִא, sets himself apart. Why is the section dealing with the nazirite juxtaposed to the section of the adulterous woman? To tell us that whoever sees an adulteress in her disgrace should vow to abstain from wine, for it leads to adultery. — [Sotah 2a]
a nazirite vow Heb. נָזִיר [The term] נְזִירָה everywhere [in Scripture] means only separation; here too [the nazirite] separates himself from wine. - [Sifrei Naso 1:87]
to abstain for the sake of the Lord To separate himself from wine for the sake of Heaven. — [Ned. 9b, Sifrei Naso 1:84]

Quote:

judg 13:4-7

As it is not Torah, it is not the Law.

Quote:

ephes 5:15-18

As it is not Torah, it is not the Law.

Quote:

hosea 4:11, 7:5

As it is not Torah, it is not the Law.

Quote:

isaiah 19:14, 28:7-8

As it is not Torah, it is not the Law.

Quote:

proverbs 23:29-35

As it is not Torah, it is not the Law.

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · **Re: Halal and Kosher -** 03-13-2005

SpaceFalcon, I don't understand what you mean by the phrase, "As it is not Torah, it is not the law" ???

These are still part of the Tanakh, right?

Isaiah 28:7. These, too, erred because of wine and strayed because of strong wine; priest and prophet erred because of strong wine, they became corrupt because of wine; they went astray because of strong wine, they erred against the seer, they caused justice to stumble.

Who wrote these verses? Aren't they inspired from God?

I'm confused about this point.

The Qur'an is very open in it's criticism on this issue:

Al-Maaidah 5:62. And you see many of them (Jews) hurrying for sin and transgression, and eating illegal things. Evil indeed is that which they have been doing.

63. Why do not the rabbis and the religious learned men forbid them from uttering sinful words and from eating illegal things.*Evil indeed is that which they have been performing.
....

66. And if only they had acted according to the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to them from their Lord (the Qur'ân), they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet.*There are from among them people who are on the right course (i.e.*they act on the revelation and believe in Prophet Muhammad like 'Abdullâh bin Salâm ), but many of them do evil deeds.

67. O Messenger (Muhammad )! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord.*And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allâh will protect you from mankind.*Verily, Allâh guides not the people who disbelieve.
...

69. Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, - whosoever believed in Allâh and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

The Qur'an praises the righteous amongst the People of the Book for following the laws given to them, and it criticises those who leave the path of God.

SpaceFalcon2001 · 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Adl

SpaceFalcon, I don't understand what you mean by the phrase, "As it is not Torah, it is not the law" ???

They are prophets, but they are not permitted to change our covenant with HaShem as our covenant is eternal.

Quote:

Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it. (Deut. 13:1)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Adl

These are still part of the Tanakh, right?

The Tanach contains the Torah, but only the Torah contains the written law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Adl

Who wrote these verses? Aren't they inspired from God?

Where as the Torah is the word of HaShem as written by Moshe Rabbeinu under dictation, the rest of the Tanach is written by other prophets who did not hear HaShem as clearly as Moses did. And as before, they may not alter our covenant with HaShem as it has been set for eternity.

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · **Re: Halal and Kosher -** 03-13-2005

So who is responsible for this sin of changing the command of God? Why wasn't that verse rejected from the Torah if it had no authourity in the first place? ???

SpaceFalcon2001 · **Re: Halal and Kosher -** 03-14-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Adl

So who is responsible for this sin of changing the command of God? Why wasn't that verse rejected from the Torah if it had no authourity in the first place? ???

I don't quite understand. The things in the Tanach that are not Torah are included because they are our history and they have divine inspirational value, but they have no effect where the law is concerned.
Such as the Isaiah verse you quoted has him saying how the people of Israel have abused a product of HaShem (wine), but he does not say that no one shall ever be allowed to drink wine again, that would be blasphamous against the law of the torah. The commandment was not actually changed.

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · **Re: Halal and Kosher -** 03-14-2005

oh okay. Yes, I was just trying to understand the context of the verses, because I couldn't understand how it seemed to be prohibited.

Could you give me the context for the other verses as well?

Thanks.

SpaceFalcon2001 · **Re: Halal and Kosher -** 03-14-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Could you give me the context for the other verses as well?

Quote:

Consequently, beware now, and do not drink wine or strong drink, and do not eat any unclean thing. Because you shall conceive, and bear a son; and a razor shall not come upon his head, for a Nazirite to God shall the lad be from the womb; and he will begin to save Israel from the hand of the Philistines."...(judg 13:4-7)

Effectivly the boy was to draw his strength from the fact that he was a nazirite, and nazirites are not allowed to drink wine or shave their heads.

Quote:

ephes 5:15-18

don't know what ephes is?

Quote:

Harlotry and [old] wine and new wine take away the heart.(hosea 4:11), The day of our king, the princes became ill from the heat of the wine; he withdrew his hand with the scorners. (7:5)

The meaning is vauge, but refers to not acting like yourself.

Quote:

The Lord has poured into its midst a spirit of perverseness, and they have misled Egypt in all its deeds as a drunkard strays in his vomit.(isaiah 19:14)

The Lord has poured into its midst He mixed a drink for them in its midst, which perverted their spirit, an expression similar to (Prov. 9:2), “She mixed (מָסְכָה) her wine.” Mixing a beverage in a cask until he blends it to its proper flavor is called מֶסֶ.

Quote:

Who cries, "Woe!" Who, "Alas!" He who has quarrels. He who talks too much. Who has wounds without cause? Who has bloodshot eyes? Those who sit late over wine, those who come to search for mixed wine. Do not look at wine when it is red; when he puts his eye on the cup, it goes smoothly. Ultimately, it will bite like a serpent, and sting like a viper. Your eyes will see strange women, and your heart will speak confusedly. And you shall be like one lying in the midst of the sea and like one lying at the top of a mast. "They struck me but I did not become ill; they beat me but I did not know it. When will I awaken? I will continue; I will seek it again."(proverbs 23:29-35)

all of proverbs are just simple advice (Proverbs is a writing, thus not the most divine book) and simply says this:
Advice: Don't get drunk, you will get a bad hangover.

yoshiyahu · **Re: Halal and Kosher -** 03-14-2005

Ansar,

I believe the Tanakh verses you quoted from are reffering to those who abuse alcholol, rather than just anyone who uses it. It is a commandment that we use wine in pesach (passover), for an example that alcohol is in fact allowed. Judaism doesn't condemn a person who drinks alcoholic beverages, but it does those who abuse them.

yoshiyahu · **Re: Halal and Kosher -** 03-14-2005

A nice article on wine is at http://www.myhomeloancompany.com/rac...says/wine.html

yoshiyahu · **Re: Halal and Kosher -** 03-14-2005

ephes would stand for esphesians (i think i mispelled that), one of Paul's epistles (thus, rejected by Judaism)

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · **Re: Halal and Kosher -** 03-20-2005

I was wondering what is the process of killing an animal for it to be kosher?

And are there any days when you do sacrifices?

Genius · **Re: Halal and Kosher -** 03-20-2005

Can we eat kosher?

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	(#3 (permalink))
Ansar Al-'Adl Administrator Status: Offline Posts: 5,161 Reputation: 13017 Rep Power: 45 Join Date: Dec 2004 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Halal and Kosher - 03-13-2005 Interesting. What about these passages: Alcohol not holy: num 6:3, judg 13:4-7, ephes 5:15-18, hosea 4:11, 7:5, isaiah 19:14, 28:7-8, proverbs 23:29-35, Qur’an 2:219, 5:90 To all Christian friends- What are the restrictions given in Christianity? __________________ The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik] Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE. Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

	(#5 (permalink))
Ansar Al-'Adl Administrator Status: Offline Posts: 5,161 Reputation: 13017 Rep Power: 45 Join Date: Dec 2004 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Halal and Kosher - 03-13-2005 SpaceFalcon, I don't understand what you mean by the phrase, "As it is not Torah, it is not the law" ??? These are still part of the Tanakh, right? Isaiah 28:7. These, too, erred because of wine and strayed because of strong wine; priest and prophet erred because of strong wine, they became corrupt because of wine; they went astray because of strong wine, they erred against the seer, they caused justice to stumble. Who wrote these verses? Aren't they inspired from God? I'm confused about this point. The Qur'an is very open in it's criticism on this issue: Al-Maaidah 5:62. And you see many of them (Jews) hurrying for sin and transgression, and eating illegal things. Evil indeed is that which they have been doing. 63. Why do not the rabbis and the religious learned men forbid them from uttering sinful words and from eating illegal things.Evil indeed is that which they have been performing. .... 66. And if only they had acted according to the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to them from their Lord (the Qur'ân), they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet.There are from among them people who are on the right course (i.e.they act on the revelation and believe in Prophet Muhammad like 'Abdullâh bin Salâm ), but many of them do evil deeds. 67. O Messenger (Muhammad )! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord.And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allâh will protect you from mankind.Verily, Allâh guides not the people who disbelieve. ... 69. Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, - whosoever believed in Allâh and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve The Qur'an praises the righteous amongst the People of the Book for following the laws given to them, and it criticises those who leave the path of God. __________________ The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:* "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik] Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE. Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

	(#7 (permalink))
Ansar Al-'Adl Administrator Status: Offline Posts: 5,161 Reputation: 13017 Rep Power: 45 Join Date: Dec 2004 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Halal and Kosher - 03-13-2005 So who is responsible for this sin of changing the command of God? Why wasn't that verse rejected from the Torah if it had no authourity in the first place? ??? __________________ The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik] Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE. Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

	(#9 (permalink))
Ansar Al-'Adl Administrator Status: Offline Posts: 5,161 Reputation: 13017 Rep Power: 45 Join Date: Dec 2004 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Halal and Kosher - 03-14-2005 oh okay. Yes, I was just trying to understand the context of the verses, because I couldn't understand how it seemed to be prohibited. Could you give me the context for the other verses as well? Thanks. __________________ The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik] Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE. Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

	(#11 (permalink))
yoshiyahu LI Senior Member Status: Offline Posts: 338 Reputation: 126 Rep Power: 23 Join Date: Mar 2005 Gender: Way of Life: Agnostic	Re: Halal and Kosher - 03-14-2005 Ansar, I believe the Tanakh verses you quoted from are reffering to those who abuse alcholol, rather than just anyone who uses it. It is a commandment that we use wine in pesach (passover), for an example that alcohol is in fact allowed. Judaism doesn't condemn a person who drinks alcoholic beverages, but it does those who abuse them. __________________ سلام - שלום

	(#12 (permalink))
yoshiyahu LI Senior Member Status: Offline Posts: 338 Reputation: 126 Rep Power: 23 Join Date: Mar 2005 Gender: Way of Life: Agnostic	Re: Halal and Kosher - 03-14-2005 A nice article on wine is at http://www.myhomeloancompany.com/rac...says/wine.html __________________ سلام - שלום

	(#13 (permalink))
yoshiyahu LI Senior Member Status: Offline Posts: 338 Reputation: 126 Rep Power: 23 Join Date: Mar 2005 Gender: Way of Life: Agnostic	Re: Halal and Kosher - 03-14-2005 ephes would stand for esphesians (i think i mispelled that), one of Paul's epistles (thus, rejected by Judaism) __________________ سلام - שלום

	(#14 (permalink))
Ansar Al-'Adl Administrator Status: Offline Posts: 5,161 Reputation: 13017 Rep Power: 45 Join Date: Dec 2004 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Halal and Kosher - 03-20-2005 I was wondering what is the process of killing an animal for it to be kosher? And are there any days when you do sacrifices? __________________ The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik] Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE. Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

	(#15 (permalink))
Genius Paranoid Android Status: Offline Posts: 461 Reputation: 1040 Rep Power: 25 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Manchester/Leicester Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Halal and Kosher - 03-20-2005 Can we eat kosher?