Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures. - Page 19

Grace Seeker

See, we would not say that there are three different natures. There are three distinct persons, but there is just one essence.

Now if you had been talking about Jesus alone, then I would have ceded you the point that Jesus himself had two different natures, a human nature and a divine nature. But God has only one nature, one essence, one substance, one being no matter which of the three distinct personas you speak of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

Hamayun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

God has only one nature, one essence, one substance, one being no matter which of the three distinct personas you speak of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

So if all three are actually one substance then.....

Why split them into three and pray to all three of them?

Why not just pray to that one essence???

Why???

Peace

ASeeker

Can we take it that the Jews and Christians agree that their respective scriptures make no reference to the prophet of Islam?

Keltoi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamayun

So if all three are actually one substance then.....

Why split them into three and pray to all three of them?

Why not just pray to that one essence???

Why???

Peace

In essence that is what Christians do. However, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which exist in triunity, are responsible for different aspects of a Christians spiritual journey. The Father is the Almighty God, the Son is Jesus Christ who through God's mercy brought us atonement, and the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Spirit, the Comforter, who leads us to righteousness. The reason Christians recognize this triune nature is because that triune nature is pointed out to us.

Skye Ephémérine

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASeeker

Can we take it that the Jews and Christians agree that their respective scriptures make no reference to the prophet of Islam?

indeed by the same token, that the Jews make no reference to the prophet/God of Christianity!

cheers

Skye Ephémérine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

See, we would not say that there are three different natures. There are three distinct persons, but there is just one essence.

Now if you had been talking about Jesus alone, then I would have ceded you the point that Jesus himself had two different natures, a human nature and a divine nature. But God has only one nature, one essence, one substance, one being no matter which of the three distinct personas you speak of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

So you have four Gods now? two in Jesus, plus a father and a silent holy spirit?

Hamayun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keltoi

In essence that is what Christians do. However, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which exist in triunity, are responsible for different aspects of a Christians spiritual journey. The Father is the Almighty God, the Son is Jesus Christ who through God's mercy brought us atonement, and the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Spirit, the Comforter, who leads us to righteousness. The reason Christians recognize this triune nature is because that triune nature is pointed out to us.

Seems like we will never agree so I wish you peace and good health my brother. I hope God makes your journey easy for you and shows you the right path.

I will leave you with the following verses. Please think about them... but in the end the choice is yours.

Quote:

"and say not, "Three". Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be it from His glory that He should have a son; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; and Allah is sufficient for a Protector." (4:171)

"Certainly they disbelieve who say: "Surely Allah is the third (Person) of the three"; and there is no god but One God,…. The Messiah, son of Maryam is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman, they both used to eat food. See how We make the signs clear to them, then behold how they are turned away." (5:73 – 75)

"And they say: "The Beneficent God has taken to Himself a son." Glory be to Him. Nay! They are honored servants; they do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act. He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves, and for fear of Him they tremble." (21:26 – 28)

"Certainly they disbelieve who say: "Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Maryam". And the Messiah said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust." (5:72)

Peace

YusufNoor

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASeeker

Can we take it that the Jews and Christians agree that their respective scriptures make no reference to the prophet of Islam?

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

what a misguided statement! while the "Messiah" is prophesied in the Tanakh, "Christianity" is NOT! and while "Christianity" is not prophesied in the Tanakh, Islam IS!!!

here's part of an old post:

Quote:

For sources we’ll use The Stone Edition Chumash The Torah, Haftaros and Five Megillos with A Commentary Anthologized From The RAbbinic Writings by Mesorah Publishing as well as the Artscroll Tanach Series Bereishsis/ Genesis A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources Translation and commentary by Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz with Overviews by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and a Foreword by HaGoan HaRav Mordechai Gifter, published by Mesorah Publication Ltd, hereafter referred to as the Chumash or Bereishsis/ Genesis respectively.

From the Chumash we read 16:3, So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her maidservant – after 10 years of Abram’s dwelling in the Land of Canaan – and gave her to Abram her husband, to him as a wife. He consorted with Hagar and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was lowered in her esteem.

16 The Birth of Ishmael. Despite their spiritual riches and Godly assurances, Abraham and Sarah were still heartbroken at their barrenness, for without heirs they would not be able to continue the mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind. Recognizing that it was she who was infertile, Sarah suggested that Abraham marry her maidservant Hagar, and, if a son were born, Sarah would raise him, so that he would be considered her adopted child.

Hagar was a daughter of Pharaoh. After seeing the miracles that were brought on Sarah’s behalf when she was abducted and taken to his palace, he gave her to Hagar, saying, “Better that she be a servant in their house, than a princess in someone else’s.” So it was that Hagar, an Egyptian princess, became Abraham’s wife and bore him Ishmael.

In the notes to verse 4 – Her mistress was lowered. Hagar brazenly boasted to the ladies, “Since so many years have passed without Sarai having children, she cannot be as righteous as she seems. But I conceived immediately!” (Rashi). Now that Hagar had assured Abraham’s posterity, she no longer felt subservient to Sarah (Radak).

A few notes about Sarah and Hagar from verses 6 – 8:
Verse 6 “your maidservant is in your hand; do to her as you see fit.” To me she is a wife; and I have no right to treat her unkindly. But to you she is a servant; if she mistreats you, do what you feel is right. (Radak; Haamek Davar). Sarah’s intent was not malicious, but to force Hagar to cease from her insulting demeanor. But instead of acknowledging Sarah’s superior position, Hagar fled (Arbarbanel; Sforno).

Rabbi Aryeh Levin noted that it is congruous to believe that a woman as righteous as Sarah would persecute another human being out of personal pique. Rather, Sarah treated Hagar as she always had, but in the light of Hagar’s newly inflated self-image, she took it as persecution.

We’ll leave the issue of Hagar for the moment except to pause to list the prophecies about Ishmael AT THIS TIME:

V10 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “I will greatly increase your offspring, and they will not be counted for abundance.”
V 11 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “Behold, you will conceive, and give birth to a son; his name shall be Ishmael, for Hashem has heard your prayer. And he shall be a wild-ass of a man; his hand against everyone, and everyone’s hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dwell.”
The prophecy in verse 10 sounds VERY familiar to ones about Abraham’s’ descendants, while verse 11 gives us our other prophecy. We will return to Hagar later, Insha’ Allah.

Let us return to matter relating to Israel’s uncle Ishmael. In chapter 17, Chumash, God is speaking to Abraham about their covenant and promising a son through Sarah, Abraham interrupts God:
v18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” God said, “Nonetheless, your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac…v 20 But regarding Ishmael I have heard you; I have blessed him, will make him fruitful, and will increase him most exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes and I will make him into a great nation…”

Part of the notes for this verse read: “We see from the prophecy in this verse, that 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation [with the rise of Islam in the 7th Century C.E.]…Throughout this period, Ishmael hoped anxiously, until the promise was fulfilled and they dominated the world. We the descendants of Isaac, for whom the fulfillment of the promises made to us is delayed due to our sins…should surely anticipate the fulfillment of God’s promises and not despair” (R’ Bachya citing R’ Chananel).

Bereishsis/ Genesis adds: R’ Bachya cites R’ Chananel’s comment on this verse: We see from this prophecy [in the year 2047 from Creation, when Abraham was ninety-nine], 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation. [This would correspond to 624 C.E, two years after the H(ijra)!…] to be honest, I totally missed the hijra comment the first time I read this because I wasn’t a Muslim and I didn’t know what they meant by hegira! But we do have one prophecy that at least according to the Jews, puts Islam as an Old Testament prophecy!

I got lazy and copied this from the Jewish Publication Society, the first half of Genesis chapter 25:

1 And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.

2 And she bore him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah

3 And Jokshan begot Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.

4 And the sons of Midian: Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.

6 But unto the sons of the concubines, that Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts; and he sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, a hundred threescore and fifteen years

8 And Abraham expired, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

9 And Isaac and Ishmael his sons buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;

10 the field which Abraham purchased of the children of Heth; there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.

11 And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed Isaac his son; and Isaac dwelt by Beer-lahai-roi.

12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bore unto Abraham.

13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the first-born of Ishmael, Nebaioth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,

14 and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa;

15 Hadad, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedem;

16 these are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their villages, and by their encampments; twelve princes according to their nations

17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty and seven years; and he expired and died; and was gathered unto his people.

18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Asshur: over against all his brethren he did settle.

Let’s begin with the part dealing with Ishmael first. We see in verse 9 that both Isaac and Ishmael buried their Abraham, what does this tell us? Well, for one, we can confirm that there was NEVER a time during Abraham’s life when Isaac was Abraham’s firstborn, NOR was there EVER a time during Abraham’s life when Isaac was to Abraham “your son, your only son”. Those terms could ONLY be used to describe Ishmael, Abraham’s firstborn son. But we are not here to speculate who changed THAT story!

In Bereishsis/ Genesis, the notes for verse 17. Ishmael’s age is given because it assists in calculations with respect to [dating the various events which occurred during the life of] Jacob (Rashi [Yevamos 64a]) [and this is footnoted, which reads in part: 1 Rashi goes on to explain that we calculate from Ishmael’s age at his death that Jacob attended the Academy of Eber for fourteen years from the time he left his fathers’ house to the time he arrived at Laban’s house (as explained in Megillah 17a); to which we have the sub footnote: [Briefly, according to the data cited in Megillah 17a, when Jacob stood before Pharaoh he should have been 116 years old, yet Jacob himself gave his age as 130(Gen. 47:9). The discrepancy is explained by the fact that he spent fourteen years in the Academy of Eber after leaving his fathers’ house.]
According to Ramban [to this verse but cited in v12] Ishmael’s age is noted here because he repented and the age of the righteous is generally stated. Rashbam holds that it is recorded as a mark of honor for Abraham. Since the torah had mentioned Abraham’s age at Ishmael’s birth, and Ishmael’s age when he underwent circumcision. It now concludes by mentioning his lifespan. Further on we read Rashi comments that…is only mentioned in the case of righteous people [such as Ishmael, since he repented…]…
According to R’ Bachya it [the phrase “and was gathered unto his people”] is based the use in our verse of both expired and died – which refer to the death only of the righteous – and the Sages said that Ishmael repented of his evil ways.

So whatever ill will the Jews may harbor against Ishmael [that they say he had “evil” ways], he is cleared of any error and claimed by JEWISH Sages to be “of the righteous!” note the similarity in regards to Abraham in verse 8 And Abraham expired, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. Compared to of Ishmael in verse 17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty and seven years; and he expired and died; and was gathered unto his people.

Also, consider that we saw in the notes to Genesis 16 “that Abraham and Sarah were still heartbroken at their barrenness, for without heirs they would not be able to continue the mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind. Recognizing that it was she who was infertile, Sarah suggested that Abraham marry her maidservant Hagar, and, if a son were born, Sarah would raise him, so that he would be considered her adopted child.” This tells us that it was the intent of Abraham and Sarah to raise Ishmael “so that he would be considered her adopted child!” it stands within reason but our case doesn’t rely solely on it, that in their job of “parenting” Ishmael [up until the birth of Isaac] that they would have sent him to the “Academy of Eber in Jerusalem” for proper training in the “mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind.” So from Ishmael's beginning and again at the end of his life we can put him in the category of the “sons” of Eber, and thus an Hebrew.

We will take another look at Hagar, just in case any see her as a reason to disqualify Ishmael as one of the “righteous.” Let’s look again at 25:1, And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.
The notes say that there is a Hebrew word in the phrase which means “again” which would literally mean: And Abraham again took a wife, which is interpreted by the Sages to intimate the Abraham remarried to before: Hagar.

Keturah is Hagar, who received this name because her deeds were as beautiful as incense [ketores]; also because she remained chaste…from the time she had separated from Abraham (Midrash; Rashi).
In 21:14 Rashi comments that Hagar reverted to the idolatry of her father’s house. How then does he now call her action “beautiful as incense?” – Rather, when she was expelled from Abraham’s household she felt forsaken even by his God and she intended to revert to her idolatrous ways. But when the miracle occurred at the well, she repented (Gur Aryeh).

The Zohar similarly comments that although she had relapsed into her ancestral idolatry, she later repented and changed her name, after which Abraham sent for and married her. From this we see that a change of name males atonement for guilt, for she made this change of name symbolic of her change of behavior.
[Immediately following this there is a note discussing some Hebrew phraseology which…denotes that Keturah was righteous and fit for Abraham.]

Although Hagar/Keturah was a first generation Egyptian and hence forbidden in marriage [see Deut.32: 9], nevertheless, since his first marriage to her was with God’s sanction, she remained permissible to him for remarriage as well. Furthermore, the Midrash [Bereishis Rabbah 60:4] specifically states that Abraham married Keturah/Hagar by Divine Command (Tur).
Targum Yonasan renders the verse: and Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah; she is Hagar who had been bound to him…from the beginning.

so, as far as some REALLY CONSERVATIVE JEWS are concerned, the coming of Islam IS in the Torah! thus, naturally Islam would HAVE to have a Prophet! and thus, while some "Christians" find it ludicrous that the Rasulullah /Prophet of Islam[pbuh] might be mentioned in the Tanakh, i believe that may may well be mistaken!

now, shall we ask these same Jews if they believe in a "trinity?" i bet not...

MustafaMc · 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamayun

Also brother although we have our differences we are worshipping the same God. Different journeys to the same destination. One of the paths is probably better than the other but the destination is the same.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you. Of course there is only One God, but Christians worship the human being, Jesus (as), as God, while Muslims absolutely refuse to worship Jesus (as) as God or the Son of God. We Muslims worship the One God without father, mother, daughter or son and without equal.

While our respective INTENDED destinations are the same, I contend that, while our ultimate destination is at the Mercy of Allah, our respective religions teach that theirs is the only means for salvation. In Christianity, the Bible teaches that "no one comes to the Father except through the Son", while in Islam the Qur'an 3:85 teaches that "If anyone is looking for a religion other than Islam, then let it be known that it will not be accepted from him; and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers."

If you want to know what a Christian minister said about his comparison of Islam and Christianity, the following link under the "Radio" tab should be quite revealing.
http://davidjeremiah.org/

MustafaMc

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromgenesis

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

If Jesus (as) was God in human flesh, why would he pray to another outside of himself, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"? Does that not illustrate clear as day that Jesus was not his own God, but Another One was?

Grace Seeker

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASeeker

Can we take it that the Jews and Christians agree that their respective scriptures make no reference to the prophet of Islam?

We Christians may agree that there is no reference to the prophet of Islam in the Bible. I'm afraid that just because we agree on that, does not meant that others will. I suspect that the Jews don't see it either, and were probably as surprised by that inference which Muslims have made as they were by Peter's assertions regarding Jesus on the day of Pentecost. But I don't think even Christians and Jews agreeing on this matter is going to change the opinion of Muslim believers one iota. All three groups are conditioned to see what they want to see. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone even knows how to read a text objectively anymore?

Grace Seeker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

God has only one nature, one essence, one substance, one being no matter which of the three distinct personas you speak of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamayun

So if all three are actually one substance then.....

Why split them into three and pray to all three of them?

Why not just pray to that one essence???

Why???

Peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keltoi

In essence that is what Christians do. However, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which exist in triunity, are responsible for different aspects of a Christians spiritual journey. The Father is the Almighty God, the Son is Jesus Christ who through God's mercy brought us atonement, and the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Spirit, the Comforter, who leads us to righteousness. The reason Christians recognize this triune nature is because that triune nature is pointed out to us.

In essence (pun intended) I agree withi Keltoi, this is what Christians do when we pray to God, and why we assert that we are monotheists and not associating partners with God. That is because we are not associating any other beings with God, just observing that God is a little more complex than he those who don't look close enough to see the three persons.

Therefore, I try to be careful and not say things like Jesus prayed to God in the garden but that he prayed to the Father: "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.' " (Matthew 26:39) But I admit to not always being that careful to be that precise, and I know this is true of others as well. My apologies that this leads to some of the confusion you have experienced. Of course it is correct to assert that Jesus was praying to God in the garden, for the Father is God just as Jesus is. But it is not true to say that he was praying to himself, for the Father and Jesus are distinct persons even as they are one being. That's generally the line that makes non-Christians want to pull their hair out and say that we Christians are just being illogical, that we are trying to have our cake and eat it too.

And I can understand that from the standpoint of Aristolian logic that it really does come across as nonsense. My main defense is to remind people that God stopping the sun from moving across the sky, bringing dry bones back to life again, or creating the world out of nothingness doesn't fit what passes for logic today either, but revelation holds them all to be true. So, if the scriptures tell us both that there is one God and also that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all that same one God, then whether it makes logical sense or not I'm going to believe it to be true.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Though I'm wondering how it is that we have drifted so far from topic of the thread again, especially when this is discussed in every other thread on the board already.

	(#271 (permalink))
Grace Seeker LI Addict Status: Offline Posts: 3,063 Reputation: 6315 Rep Power: 23 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA Gender: Way of Life: Christian	Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures. - 10-10-2008 See, we would not say that there are three different natures. There are three distinct persons, but there is just one essence. Now if you had been talking about Jesus alone, then I would have ceded you the point that Jesus himself had two different natures, a human nature and a divine nature. But God has only one nature, one essence, one substance, one being no matter which of the three distinct personas you speak of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

	(#273 (permalink))
ASeeker Account Disabled Status: Offline Posts: 29 Reputation: -263 Rep Power: 0 Join Date: Sep 2008 Gender: Way of Life: Christian	Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures. - 10-10-2008 Can we take it that the Jews and Christians agree that their respective scriptures make no reference to the prophet of Islam?