Assalamualykum



suppose I tell you that there exist a thing which you cannot see, touch, taste, hear or feel, even with the most sensitive and advanced instruments known to man it cannot be detected and if it is standing in front of you , you can walk straight through it , also it can pass through doors and walls actually it can pass through anything.
Can such a thing exist?
And by the way I’m not talking of ghosts!


And yes such a thing does exist!

What I’m talking about is known as dark matter and nearly 70% or more of our universe is made up of dark matter!

And this is what the scientists are calming and it is result of observation and logical reasoning.


“The existence of this theoretical substance was first proposed in the 1930s by Swiss astrophysicist Fritz Zwicky.

By studying the rotation of a group of galaxies called the Coma Cluster, Zwicky calculated that the visible mass of the galaxies was 400 times less than the mass needed to explain their gravitational motion.”
http://tinyurl.com/6bjjqb


NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter
“These observations provide the strongest evidence yet that most of the matter in the universe is dark.”

http://tinyurl.com/emvb5


So is it logical and rational to believe that god exists?



We know universe exists and it is about 13.7 billion years old.

Hence it must have had beginning and anything that ages and have beginning must have been non-existing and hence it was created or Caused into existence
Also there is arrow of time ie it travels in one direction only and is irreversible
So there must have been time when it was zero and as we know matter without time cannot exist and time without matter is meaningless.

The most widely accepted theory about our universe is the big bang which state that universe started with singularity but where this singularity came from?

Other theories have come up and one of it states that universe is cyclic.
In this cyclic model, two parallel orbifold planes or M-branes collide periodically in a higher dimensional space, a big crunch followed immediately by a big bang.
And this cycle is infinite and the current cycle is about 14 billions years old.

The question is if universe is infinite then how can you say current cycle is 14 billion years old since dividing infinity will give you undefined answer.

And if you say cycle, it means division And how do you define past present and future And if you say the cycle keeps adding till infinity then there must be first cycle and it had a beginning.
True Infinity can only occur if time is zero since without time there is no motion and without motion there is no matter therefore matter cannot exist for infinity.
Also the universe is flat and therefore there will be no big crunch.


There is another theory known as string theory.
Lot of time and energy as well as money has been spent on this theory but this theory has not produce a single meaningful result in 30 years and this has frustrated many scientists so much that many of them are turning against it and even calling it science fiction.

“Stanford math professor Keith Devlin talks about two new books that call into question the entire idea of string theory”

http://tinyurl.com/67vyv6

“Last summer in Aspen, Dr. Schwarz and Dr. Green (of Cambridge) cut a cake decorated with "20th Anniversary of the First Revolution Started in Aspen," as they and other theorists celebrated the anniversary of their big breakthrough. But even as they ate cake and drank wine, the string theorists admitted that after 20 years, they still did not know how to test string theory, or even what it meant.”

“Dr. Lawrence Krauss, a cosmologist at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, called string theory "a colossal failure." “

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/07/science/07stri.html


The only theory that has some observable evidence is big bang theory

As is evident some scientists are trying to present theories that eliminate the beginning and hence God can be taken out of the equation.

But no matter how hard you try you cannot avoid the beginning.



Einstein ultimately accepted to what he called "the necessity for a beginning" and eventually to "the presence of a superior reasoning power.”.


Since we now know universe had a beginning it must not have existed.
So the question what was there before the beginning is not correct because it implies that the cause of the beginning no longer exist after the beginning.

The correct question is what caused the beginning?

Since universe was in a state of non existence there must be something that caused it into existence.

And the obvious answer is God, but saying God is responsible is not enough.

Just as dark matter even though is undetectable but we do know that it is invisible and it has gravitational influence similarly we must describe the entity that caused the beginning.

Since time was also nonexistent this entity is outside time dimension and since matter of which our universe is made of cannot exist without time this entity is not made from this matter.

Since this entity is outside time it truly exists infinitely and not our universe as some suggest.


We need definition of god because there are dozens of religions claiming dozens of gods so which god is true?

There is only one god which fits the criteria and that is Allah (swt)

So let’s define God as in Islam.


[Quran_chapter 112]

1] SAY: "He is the One God:
2] God the Eternal, the Uncaused Cause of All Being
3]"He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
4]"and there is nothing that could be compared with Him

As already stated the entity is not made of any matter contained in this universe, no false vacuum, no quantum field, no energy strings,
We cannot comprehend how Allah (swt) looks.

This is really very clever without describing how Allah (swt) looks we can still know a lot about him
Allah (swt) has at least 99 names and attributes.

Some of them are:

Allah (swt) is also known as Al-Haqq meaning

The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.

In our universe there is no such thing as infinity there are things we call infinite because it is beyond our capacity to measure or count, these things may be indefinite but are not TRUE INFINITE
Because there is arrow of time and time never stops and it goes in one direction only
It is irreversible
A thing is infinite only when it is outside of time since it has no beginning and no end only such thing is infinite and only a thing or entity that is infinite i.e. it always existed can Cause beginning of our universe which is finite.

Allah (swt) is also known as Al-'Awwal meaning

The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.

Allah (swt) is also known as Al-'Akhir meaning

The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.

Since Allah (swt) has no end and no beginning he is outside of time and he truly exist
He is true infinite.

Allah (swt) is also known as Al-Khaaliq meaning

The Creator, The One who brings everything from non-existence to existence.

We know that absolute nothing cannot exist, but something can come out of nothing
Remember when our universe never existed only Allah (swt) (entity) existed because he is TRULY INFINITE but we also know that the Allah (swt) is not part of our universe and the matter which our universe is made of, is not derived from Allah (swt) because it cannot exist without time, hence Allah (swt) created our universe out of nothing.

I must admit that I m not qualified person to make a statement such as “something can come out of nothing”

But there is one man who thinks he is qualified to make such a statement
(Perhaps the world’s most famous cosmologist)
Stephen Hawking Says Universe Created from Nothing

"Speaking to a sold out crowd at the Berkeley Physics Oppenheimer Lecture, Hawking said yesterday that he now believes the universe spontaneously popped into existence from nothing. He said more work is needed to prove this but we have time because 'Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

http://tinyurl.com/2lt8bt


He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).
{Chapter #21, Verse #56}

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.
(Chapter #2, Verse #117)




(Truly Allah (swt) alone is greatest and all possible praises to him)



Allah (swt) is also known as Az-Zaahir meaning

The Manifest, The One that nothing is above Him and nothing is underneath Him, hence He exists without a place. He, The Exalted, His Existence is obvious by proofs and He is clear from the delusions of attributes of bodies.

Allah (swt) is outside space and time

Allah (swt) is also known as Al-Mateen meaning

The Firm One, The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted and He does not get tired.

Since Allah (swt) is infinite his power is also infinite

Now it has became evident and can be reasonably concluded that only an entity such as Allah (swt) is capable of creating our universe.


I would like to share some interesting verses form Quran regarding creation




Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? [Al-Quraan 21:30]


“general relativity shows that under certain reasonable assumptions, an expanding universe like ours must have begun as a singularity.”

http://tinyurl.com/38s5gt


“If the density of the universe exactly equals the critical density, then the geometry of the universe is flat like a sheet of paper. Thus, there is a direct link between the geometry of the universe and its fate.

WMAP has confirmed this result with very high accuracy and precision. We now know that the universe is flat with only a 2% margin of error.”

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html


Professor Joseph Silk
Head of Astrophysics, Department of Physics, University of Oxford, United Kingdom

Joseph Silk: No. We do not know whether the Universe is finite or not. To give you an example, imagine the geometry of the Universe in two dimensions as a plane. It is flat, and a plane is normally infinite. But you can take a sheet of paper [an 'infinite' sheet of paper] and you can roll it up and make a cylinder, and you can roll the cylinder again and make a torus [like the shape of a doughnut]. The surface of the torus is also spatially flat, but it is finite. So you have two possibilities for a flat Universe: one infinite, like a plane, and one finite, like a torus, which is also flat.

http://tinyurl.com/5lj29q

The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfill it
{Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #104}

Allah-o-akhbar!


now if you do open up to the idea that may be god exist and Allah (swt ) indeed is true and only one god capable of creating our universe than another set of questions arises,
That I will try to answer in my next post. Inshallah

(All the true things I have said are from Allah (swt) and any mistake or unintentional wrong information I may have given is from me and I ask his forgiveness. Allah (swt) alone knows true meaning of everything)

ajazz, I have pondered many of these same things as a Christian. Isn't it interesting that you see them pointing to Allah and I see them pointing to God. (No doubt Hindus could probably say something similar as well.) Perhaps our faiths are not so different as some would have people believe.

Is dark matter undetectable? I highly doubt it. Last thing I heard about was that it was some ionized oxygen. You are making a connection that isn't there. You didn't provide any proof, just statements. Only Allah fits the criteria? No, all gods do. Anyways, if there was ANY evidence for god, it would be in favour of a deistic god, not a personal one.

If it's undetectable how exactly did they notice it's existence?
It has a gravitational effect on the matter around it and this can be detected.

There was a point when microwaves and neutrinos were undetectable, but that says more about the limitations of our technology than the nature of the phenomena in question.

Assalamulykum

just any god will not do, you must define god
what are his attributes, this god must make logical sense
to construct a building you need an architect not a painter or a musician

We Muslims believe in the same god that the Christians believe minus the ghost and the holy son (human god)

the Hindus may claim their gods are true, but tell me


"Brahma, the creator had five mind-born sons. Many fathers may be able to sympathize with Brahma, for the father of creation too was dissatisfied with his sons. None of them showed any promise, the typical progenitor felt. He contemplated on Siva for solution. Siva himself appeared and told him He was his son. Siva then assumed the ardhanareeswara form."

http://tinyurl.com/5p74yx


" Brahma, the creator of all beings and all things, was fascinated by the beauty of his own created Sarasvati, and thereby his daughter. To escape her father's notice, Sarasvati turned herself into a female deer. But Brahma did not fail to take note of it and converted himself into a male deer and began chasing her to have sex with her. The moral being as Shiva was, he did not approve a father molesting his own daughter. He did not fail to notice this immorality of the deer turned Brahma when he saw him chasing Sarasvati disguised as she-deer and to chastise him, he, the great archer as he was, shot at Brahma, the male deer. To save himself from Shiva's arrows Brahma returned to his real form but not before he had incurred some loss. He had lost one of his five heads."

http://tinyurl.com/5za5hj



now tell me honestly do such gods make any logical sense?

Tornado and Azy I'm not sure whether you understand what Dark Matter actually is (or is not): Dark Matter -- an introduction

First, dark matter is not something that physicists have (or even) actually detected with instrumentation. Rather it something whose existence is inferred from observing gravitational effects on visible matter. One of the problems with "detecting" dark matter is that it doesn't interact with the electromagnetic force in the visible world that we can observe.

Light travels in a straight line unless acted upon by an outside force such as gravity which then sucks it in toward the source of that gravitational pull. But because of the high speed of light, with the exception of black holes light generally continues on, just altered from its original path. These shifts in light are one of the means used by astrophysicists to calculate the size and distance of objects in the universe. The only problem is that they were noticing that the effects of gravity were larger than the total mass of what is observable. Hence there must be another source for this gravity that exists, but cannot be seen. And the name for this unobservable matter is dark matter. It certainly isn't ionized oxygen for that would be observable matter.

Point being that you didn't. The god you presented could have been any god by any religion or even one accepted by agnostics.

You didn't define god as Allah by the same set of arguments you used for postulating the presence of some being indiscernable in nature, beyond our experience. In declaring this god to be Allah it was just that, a declaration. Something you believe, but offered as a conclusion without substantiation.

assalamulykum

guys! the point is not about dark matter being detected or not the point is the conclusion drawn from logical and rational thinking

dark matter,when it was first proposed it was based on observational evidence

.

Dark Matter is completely irrelevant to any of this, so I will just skip to the points that actually have a point.

This universe had a beginning. We generally call it the Big Bang.

We have no reason to believe that there was simply 'nothing' prior to the Big Bang. Indeed, you do not even believe that there was 'nothing' before the Big Bang because you claim that God existed prior to it and you claim that God created the universe.

So we can all safely rule out there ultimately needing to be a universal origin for everything.

You have just committed the fallacy of composition. Look it up.

Albert Einstein was a scientific pantheist. I do not know why you are using him as a recommend concerning evidence for the existence of Allah.

This makes no coherent sense. This universe having a beginning is not the same as the universe had a beginning. We have excellent reason to believe that there was something prior to the Big Bang.

[quote=ajazz]
Since universe was in a state of non existence there must be something that caused it into existence.

And the obvious answer is God, but saying God is responsible is not enough.[/qote]
I'll correct you: Since this universe was in a state of non-existence - there must have been something that caused it to exist. The intellectual non-answer is not God because we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that God exists. We only have attempts to file in holes. Asserting that God is the answer is an intellectual dead-end and supports the idea that we should be satisfied with not understanding.

To which we have no evidence for. We might as well be describing the invisible pink unicorn. It would have exactly the same impact and effect for humanity.

You have provided no reason to believe that God exists much less the Islamic rendition.

The Islamic God is merciful, powerful, just, loving, etc. I am yet to see any proof that such a God exists.

Aurora,

Almighty Allah SWT will not show you his attributes until you work for it. Would you pay someone for doing 'NO WORK'.
Do you really think its justified to pay someone who sits on his backside and does nothing all day as opposed to someone who goes out working hard all day.
Allah SWT wants to see some return for all the things he has provided us. You give Allah SWT a hand he will extend and arm, if you come to Allah SWT Walking he will come to you running.

Funny.

Now the New Testament presents a wonderfully irrational argument for the existence of a God who is merciful, powerful, just, loving, etc. I say irrational, because what God who had all power would need to do anything to prove himself to or even be concerned about human beings. Add to it the idea that the Bible presents humankind as being at emnity with God because of their corporate disobedience and it really doesn't make sense that God would be involved with them at all. Yet the New Testament's story of the cross is first of all a story of how God treats his enemies:

Grace Seeker,
With all due respect, I don't think its funny at all. What you have just stated above it the reason why the world is in strong need of Islam. What you have just proposed is that we basically have no need to do anything and even worse we can cause all types of mischief on earth and God with his Mercy and Love will just say, No problem I'll forgive you. This to me is not funny, its actually quite serious and in serious need of attention. The social society of the world needs to rid itself from these corruptive ideas before it can move forward.

I don't think that unrighteous behavior is funny. My statement of funny has to do with the irony of our differing views of God's actions toward humanity. One that says that unless you work for it, God won't show himself to you. And one that says that God has already shown himself to you, even though you didn't deserve his attention.

After that both of them seem to have the same expectation of righteous living. Islam as a way to prove one's self and earn Allah favor, and Christianity as a response in gratitude for God's unmerited favor which one could never be good enough to earn.