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Thread: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian

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    hier stehe ich Array glo's Avatar
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    Default Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    “Peace, prosperity and justice - we can have them all if we work together. There is no 'us' or 'them'. God is not a Christian but neither is S(he) an adherent of any other religion because no religion has monopoly on God. All major religions have love and compassion at their core, they promote tolerance not violence and hate, and most have their own version of the Golden Rule - treat others as you wish to be treated. They all recognise that human happiness ultimately comes from our relationship with each other.

    In truth there are no outsiders, no enemies - unless we put them there in our minds. Black and white, rich and poor, man and woman, gay and straight, Jew and Arab, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Buddhist, Hutu and Tutsi, Pakistani and Indian, - all belong. When we start to live as brothers and sisters and to recognise our interdependence, we become fully human.

    Our diversity is beautiful - it would be so terribly boring if we were all the same! Conformity is stoked by fear of not being loved, and an expression of a need to belong. Let's love each other - warts and all. Let's dare to be beautiful in our own truth - and still belong. Unselfish self-assurance, compassion, an inner knowing that our humanity is caught up in one another's, that we are inexorably diminished when others are humiliated, oppressed or treated as if they were of less worth than us - these are some of the inner qualities that will save us as a human race.”
    Source


    Peace
    glo

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]


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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Diversity is beautiful, in fact Islam encourage it, Quran(49:13):"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."

    Muslim pray shoulders to shoulders 5 times a day, the rich and poor, the white, black, Asian, and all races. We do not have a mosque for white and another for black or Chinese or Indian, we all pray in one masque regardless of race. There is one difference between all of us, and only Allah knows that difference, so it should not effect this unity.The prophet peace be upon him said "There is no honor for a white man over a black man, or for an Arab over a non-Arab except in piety" Islam teaches us how be united in a diverse community.

    In regards to diversity in religion and the article I totally disagree I only agree with one part of it, that GOD is not Christian, in fact GOD is not Muslim too. Islam mean submission, which means the submission of the son of Adam to the rules of GOD.

    If we believe that there is a creator, regardless of one's faith we all believe in a creator, different religion call him different names but we agree on the concept even if our methods are different.

    This creator will want us to worship in a certain way, we believe if he want us all believe in him he could make us but he created Angels without desires to worship him, and he created human with desires and showed him the way, and is up to him to chose the path but at the end there is judgment day and hell or heaven.

    Diversity in religion will not be accepted by Allah. For example if you work in a company, and you have been given guidelines how to carry out your job but you decided to ignore the guidelines, and did the job the way you feel like it. You go to work once a week or not go at all, where as others, go to work every day, and submit their daily tasks five times a day no fail, follow the guidelines to the letter. They miss all the fun you are having, while skipping work.

    At the end of the year, all the staff are up for a review, some might lose their jobs and some might even get a bonus. Do you think it is fair to give
    bonuses to those who applied their rules that suit them?? Or worse they are equal to those who did the job to the best of their ability?? If we don’t think that is fair treatment in a place of work why would we accept that to be fair from GOD???

    I am not saying this religion is right and the other is wrong BUT I don’t feel it is fair that GOD will accept all religions, regardless of who did his home work in this life, either by searching the truth or applying what he learned about the creator to the best of his knowledge.

    If we believe that Allah (GOD) will accept all religion then why Muslim restricts themselves??
    if all will lead to the same destiny. We might as well have fun like other religions, and in the Day of Judgment we will say to GOD heaven please?

    "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" 3:85

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    IB Oldtimer Array sister herb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Thanks Glo about your post. I wish more people on in the world understand same as Desmond Tutu.

    Even we would less wars...



    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.




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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian




    I have fighted over 25 years for human rights and against war. I will win this battle.



    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.




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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Of course God is not a Christian..

    Because a Christian is a follower of Christ and God cannot be following Christ. Jesus was a worshipper, a Prophet of God.

    In The Qur'aan, it says ...

    Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,

    Allah , the Eternal Refuge.

    He neither begets nor is born,

    Nor is there to Him any equivalent." (Qur'aan 112:1-4)
    Whatever is in the heavens and earth exalts Allah , and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

    His is the dominion of the heavens and earth. He gives life and causes death, and He is over all things competent.

    He is the First and the Last, the Ascendant and the Intimate, and He is, of all things, Knowing.

    It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah , of what you do, is Seeing.

    His is the dominion of the heavens and earth. And to Allah are returned [all] matters.

    He causes the night to enter the day and causes the day to enter the night, and he is Knowing of that within the breasts.

    Believe in Allah and His Messenger and spend out of that in which He has made you successors. For those who have believed among you and spent, there will be a great reward.

    And why do you not believe in Allah while the Messenger invites you to believe in your Lord and He has taken your covenant, if you should [truly] be believers?

    It is He who sends down upon His Servant [Muhammad] verses of clear evidence that He may bring you out from darknesses into the light. And indeed, Allah is to you Kind and Merciful. (Qur'aan 57:1-10)
    This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. (Qur'aan 5:3)


    Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah ]. And he was not of the polytheists. (
    Qur'aan 3:67)


    Those who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists were not to be parted [from misbelief] until there came to them clear evidence

    A Messenger from Allah , reciting purified scriptures

    Within which are correct writings.

    Nor did those who were given the Scripture become divided until after there had come to them clear evidence.

    And they were not commanded except to worship Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakah. And that is the correct religion. (Qur'aan 98:1-5)


    Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.

    O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

    So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?"
    [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.

    And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive

    And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant.

    And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."

    That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute.

    It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.

    [Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path." (Qur'aan 19:27-36)

    O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
    Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah , nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together. (Qur'aan 4:171-172)

    They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (5:72)
    They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. (5:17)


    And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

    I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

    If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

    Allah will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment. (Qur'aan 5:116-119)

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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Salam alaykum

    Sorry if this insult someones here but I think that God is not muslim. He is just God.



    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.




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    hier stehe ich Array glo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Quote Originally Posted by sister harb View Post
    Salam alaykum

    Sorry if this insult someones here but I think that God is not muslim. He is just God.

    I think that's the point Desmond Tutu is making here.

    God is GOD.
    Muslims are people who want to worship and serve God ... as are Christians and Hindus and Sikhs and Jews and, and, and ...
    The point is that we are all on a journey and hoping to worship and serve God - to the best of our knowledge and ability and in different ways.

    We may have very strong beliefs with regards to which way is right or wrong.
    What Tutu is saying is that we should not make enemies of each other on account of those differences.
    He is not saying that all religions are the same or even right, but he is saying that each of us are called to love and care for others; and not to turn anybody who is different to ourselves into an enemy.

    Because we turn those who are different into our enemies, we are creating a tremendous amount of tension and conflict and war and atrocities in this world. That's NOT what God calls us to do!

    God may have strong views about who is following him 'in the right way' - but it is HIS judgment which we will come under one day, not OURS.

    We will make this world a better place if we leave the judging to God and instead follow his command to us to care for each other.


    Peace
    glo

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]


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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Frithjof Schuon had a similar(slightly diff) thought on "Trenscendent unity of religion" where he believed that all religions have the same message in their core and that it leads to God. He converted to Islam though I'm not sure if he still held the same opinion.


    I don't believe that all religions are equal and if anyone believes that then they might as well choose the ones that are most fun or easiest to follow. I do agree that there is nothing wrong with cooperating with each other to promote peace and harmony.



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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Tutu is a stand up guy and has fought many battles that I applaud, including the fights for women's rights and homosexual's rights. He is not afraid to face his own church on these things either when he thinks he is right (and I agree he is).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    In the debate about Anglican views of homosexuality, he has opposed Christian discrimination against homosexuals while suggesting homosexual church leaders should currently remain celibate. Commenting days after 5 August 2003 election of Gene Robinson, an openly gay man, to be a bishop in the Episcopal Church in the United States of America, Tutu said, "In our Church here in South Africa, that doesn't make a difference. We just say that at the moment, we believe that they should remain celibate and we don't see what the fuss is about."[99] Tutu has remarked that it is sad the Church is spending time disagreeing on sexual orientation "when we face so many devastating problems – poverty, HIV/AIDS, war and conflict".[100]

    Tutu has increased his criticism of conservative attitudes to homosexuality within his own church, equating homophobia with racism. Stating at a conference in Nairobi that he is "deeply disturbed that in the face of some of the most horrendous problems facing Africa, we concentrate on 'what do I do in bed with whom'".[101] In an interview with BBC Radio 4 on 18 November 2007, Tutu accused the church of being obsessed with homosexuality and declared: "If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God."[102] Tutu has said that in future anti-gay laws would be regarded as just as wrong as apartheid laws.[103]


    Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told. Obedience is doing what you are told regardless of what is right. Never confuse the two.

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    hier stehe ich Array glo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    ^
    Interesting guy! I had not heard of him before.
    I have not found any reference to Frithjof Schuon converting to Islam at any point in his life, although he seems to have studies Arabic in a mosque.
    Much of his philosophy seems to have drawn from Hinduism and the religions of the Native Americans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frithjof_Schuon
    http://www.frithjof-schuon.com/biography.html


    Peace
    glo

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]


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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    I've known about him for quite a while but I always forget his name because it's so strange to me. But now his name is easier on my memory hahaha.
    I also wondered why wikipedia didn't have any info of him converting to Islam yet if you see the bottom of the wiki page he is listed as an "Islamic studies scholar".

    According to the wiki bio he studied under/with Rene Guenon; a french philosopher who was himself a muslim convert in the 1930s. From what I've found his "muslim" name was Shaykh `Isa Nur al-Din, but I think he is different from Guenon in the sense that he was always more interested in the "core" of the religion rather than the "shell". Which many would disagree with concerning having one without the other.

    Though I don't agree with all his views I love quoting him from one of his interviews "Because if you understand what is essential and what is absolute, you want to assimilate it. Otherwise one is a hypocrite"

    Some info I found: http://www.theabodeofpeace.com/perennialism.html

    I really like this quote from Guenon too
    "So long as western people imagine that there only exists a single type of humanity, that there is only one 'civilization', at different stages of development, no mutual understanding will be possible. The truth is that there are many civilizations, developing along very different lines, and that, among these, that of the modern West is strangely exceptional, as some of its characteristics show."

    Here's Martin Lings on Rene Guenon


    Martin Lings is himself a convert and he published the book "Muhammad: His Life Based On the Earliest Sources" which is pretty popular and I happened to have

    I like how they look, so "philosopherish"!



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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk View Post
    Martin Lings is himself a convert and he published the book "Muhammad: His Life Based On the Earliest Sources" which is pretty popular and I happened to have
    Yo leí este libro. ¿Te gusta?

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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Quote Originally Posted by Aprender View Post
    Yo leí este libro. ¿Te gusta?
    Si hermana, mi gusta. Though I've not yet finished .



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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk View Post
    Frithjof Schuon had a similar(slightly diff) thought on "Trenscendent unity of religion" where he believed that all religions have the same message in their core and that it leads to God. He converted to Islam though I'm not sure if he still held the same opinion.
    Well, as muslims we believe that God (swt) sent messengers to all nations bringing the same core message: worship the One God.

    But those message have been distorted, with the exception of the message brought by Muhammad (saw) because he is the last messenger, and the message that he (saw) brought is preserved until the end of human existence.









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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Quote Originally Posted by sister harb View Post
    Salam alaykum

    Sorry if this insult someones here but I think that God is not muslim. He is just God.

    As I said above GOD is not Muslim, as Islam mean submission, GOD can not submit to himself.

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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Salam alaykum

    I just read book written by priest. Book tells about humour in the Bible. As it is written by priest it is not insulting at all.

    What make me sad when read it is any muslim couldn´t write similar about Quran.

    We seems to take things too seriously too many times.



    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.




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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Quote Originally Posted by sister harb View Post
    Salam alaykum

    I just read book written by priest. Book tells about humour in the Bible. As it is written by priest it is not insulting at all.

    What make me sad when read it is any muslim couldn´t write similar about Quran.

    We seems to take things too seriously too many times.

    Sister it is serious matter, is hell or haven at stake? You want humour about Quran?

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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    [QUOTE=sister harb;1544905]Salam alaykum

    I just read book written by priest. Book tells about humour in the Bible. As it is written by priest it is not insulting at all.

    What make me sad when read it is any muslim couldn´t write similar about Quran.

    Because the Qur'an is simply too glorious for anyone to find anything humorous about it. It is the word of Allah azzawajal afterall. With the message that the Qur'an brings only the most ignorant will find humor in it.

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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    Quote Originally Posted by glo View Post


    “Peace, prosperity and justice - we can have them all if we work together. There is no 'us' or 'them'. God is not a Christian but neither is S(he) an adherent of any other religion because no religion has monopoly on God. All major religions have love and compassion at their core, they promote tolerance not violence and hate, and most have their own version of the Golden Rule - treat others as you wish to be treated. They all recognise that human happiness ultimately comes from our relationship with each other.

    In truth there are no outsiders, no enemies - unless we put them there in our minds. Black and white, rich and poor, man and woman, gay and straight, Jew and Arab, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Buddhist, Hutu and Tutsi, Pakistani and Indian, - all belong. When we start to live as brothers and sisters and to recognise our interdependence, we become fully human.

    Our diversity is beautiful - it would be so terribly boring if we were all the same! Conformity is stoked by fear of not being loved, and an expression of a need to belong. Let's love each other - warts and all. Let's dare to be beautiful in our own truth - and still belong. Unselfish self-assurance, compassion, an inner knowing that our humanity is caught up in one another's, that we are inexorably diminished when others are humiliated, oppressed or treated as if they were of less worth than us - these are some of the inner qualities that will save us as a human race.”


    Source
    I appreciate what you are trying to say but this view of God does not have any foundation or divine source. We cannot speak about God from our own unfounded perception of Him, nor can we say He is 'this' or 'that' without knowing first what God has said that about Himself. You and I know better to speak about people for who they are than making judgements upon then before knowing them. Isn't God more deserving of this respect?

    It would be inappropriate and even foolish for one to say that God 'follows' a religion because by definition 'a' religion is a 'means' to God. And it is even more blasphemous to say that all religions are an acceptable way to reach God. This is because some religions are in contrast to one another: hinduism has many demi-Gods that are more-or-less the middlemen to reaching God, and this is perfectly acceptable in Hinduism; whereas Islam strictly prohibits such acts. The fact that Tutu is allowing homosexuals a right, a right that is divinely prohibited by God, a faith that he himself has to believe in as part of his own religion, therefore, is a further misunderstanding of what God commands and what 'a' religion, let alone Islam, in actuality is and always has been. God does not allow such subjectiveness in religion.

    Having said this, humanity can unite and make the world a better place – but not when we all have our own contrasting set of beliefs. Only when one follows the laws of Allah and realises His right over us, will humanity be able to make the world a better place. The fear of being caught for an immoral act, or a crime and a wrongdoing will thence not be left to the mercy or wrath of another human but to one whom one is accountable to: his Lord.

    I will come on later to discuss this with Islamic evidences if you like as some of this is largely not with the Islamic creed.
    Last edited by 'Abd-al Latif; 10-05-2012 at 10:37 AM.


    And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.”
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    Default Re: Desmond Tutu - God is not a Christian


    There's nothing wrong with having a sense of humour, it is part of out fitra after all but as with everything else it has it's place. Allah(swt) sent us the Quran so that we may be guided. We always say "I seek refuge with Allah from satan the accursed" before we read it, so that we will InshaAllah prevent ourselves from misunderstanding it. So it's really uncomfortable for me the idea of finding humour in a book meant to give guidance.

    Of course it isn't to say that we should be robots



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