The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition

sonz · **The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition -** 04-08-2006

Let us shed some light on what is considered in the West as the greatest symbol of women's oppression and servitude, the veil or the head cover. Is it true that there is no such thing as the veil in the Judaeo-Christian tradition? Let us set the record straight.

According to Rabbi Dr. Menachem M. Brayer (Professor of Biblical Literature at Yeshiva University) in his book, The Jewish woman in Rabbinic literature, it was the custom of Jewish women to go out in public with a head covering which, sometimes, even covered the whole face leaving one eye free [76]. He quotes some famous ancient Rabbis saying," It is not like the daughters of Israel to walk out with heads uncovered" and "Cursed be the man who lets the hair of his wife be seen....a woman who exposes her hair for self-adornment brings poverty."

Rabbinic law forbids the recitation of blessings or prayers in the presence of a bareheaded married woman since uncovering the woman's hair is considered "nudity". Dr. Brayer also mentions that "During the Tannaitic period the Jewish woman's failure to cover her head was considered an affront to her modesty. When her head was uncovered she might be fined four hundred zuzim for this offense."

Dr. Brayer also explains that veil of the Jewish woman was not always considered a sign of modesty. Sometimes, the veil symbolized a state of distinction and luxury rather than modesty. The veil personified the dignity and superiority of noble women. It also represented a woman's inaccessibility as a sanctified possession of her husband.

The veil signified a woman's self-respect and social status. Women of lower classes would often wear the veil to give the impression of a higher standing. The fact that the veil was the sign of nobility was the reason why prostitutes were not permitted to cover their hair in the old Jewish society.

However, prostitutes often wore a special headscarf in order to look respectable. Jewish women in Europe continued to wear veils until the nineteenth century when their lives became more intermingled with the surrounding secular culture. The external pressures of the European life in the nineteenth century forced many of them to go out bare-headed. Some Jewish women found it more convenient to replace their traditional veil with a wig as another form of hair covering. Today, most pious Jewish women do not cover their hair except in the synagogue. Some of them, such as the Hasidic sects, still use the wig.

What about the Christian tradition?

It is well known that Catholic Nuns have been covering their heads for hundreds of years, but that is not all. St. Paul in the New Testament made some very interesting statements about the veil:

"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).

St. Paul's rationale for veiling women is that the veil represents a sign of the authority of the man, who is the image and glory of God, over the woman who was created from and for man. St. Tertullian in his famous treatise 'On The Veiling Of Virgins' wrote, "Young women, you wear your veils out on the streets, so you should wear them in the church, you wear them when you are among strangers, then wear them among your brothers..." Among the Canon laws of the Catholic church today, there is a law that requires women to cover their heads in church [82].

Some Christian denominations, such as the Amish and the Mennonites for example, keep their women veiled to the present day. The reason for the veil, as offered by their Church leaders, is that "The head covering is a symbol of woman's subjection to the man and to God", which is the same logic introduced by St. Paul in the New Testament [83].

From all the above evidence, it is obvious that Islam did not invent the head cover. However, Islam did endorse it. The Quran urges the believing men and women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty and then urges the believing women to extend their head covers to cover the neck and the bosom:"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...." (24:30,31).

The Quran is quite clear that the veil is essential for modesty, but why is modesty important? The Quran is still clear: "O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their bodies (when abroad) so that they should be known and not molested" (33:59).

This is the whole point, modesty is prescribed to protect women from molestation or simply, modesty is protection.
Thus, the purpose of the veil in Islam is protection. The Islamic veil, unlike the veil of the Christian tradition, is not a sign of man's authority over woman nor is it a sign of woman's subjection to man.

The Islamic veil, unlike the veil in the Jewish tradition, is not a sign of luxury and distinction of some noble married women. The Islamic veil is a sign of modesty with the purpose of protecting women, all women.

The Islamic philosophy is that it is always better to be safe than sorry. In fact, the Quran is so concerned with protecting women's bodies and women's reputation that a man who dares to falsely accuse a woman of unchastity will be severely punished: "And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations)- Flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors" (24:4)

Compare this strict Quranic attitude with the extremely lax punishment for rape in the Bible:

" If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" (Deut. 22:28-30)

One must ask a simple question here, who is really punished? The man who only paid a fine for rape, or the girl who is forced to marry the man who raped her and live with him until he dies? Another question that also should be asked is this: which is more protective of women, the Quranic strict attitude or the Biblical lax attitude?

Some people, especially in the West, would tend to ridicule the whole argument of modesty for protection. Their argument is that the best protection is the spread of education, civilised behaviour, and self restraint.

We would say: fine but not enough. If 'civilization' is enough protection, then why is it that women in North America dare not walk alone in a dark street - or even across an empty parking lot ? If education is the solution, then why is it that a respected university like Queen's has a 'walk home service' mainly for female students on campus? If self restraint is the answer, then why are cases of sexual harassment in the workplace reported on the news media every day? A sample of those accused of sexual harassment, in the last few years, includes: Navy officers, Managers, University professors, Senators, Supreme Court Justices, and the President of the United States!

I could not believe my eyes when I read the following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's office at Queen's University:

In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes", 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their lives", 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime", 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or university, and a study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get caught."

Something is fundamentally wrong in the society we live in. A radical change in the society's life style and culture is absolutely necessary. A culture of modesty is badly needed, modesty in dress, in speech, and in manners of both men and women. Otherwise, the grim statistics will grow even worse day after day and, unfortunately, women alone will be paying the price. Actually, we all suffer but as K. Gibran has said, "...for the person who receives the blows is not like the one who counts them." [84] Therefore, a society like France which expels young women from schools because of their modest dress is, in the end, simply harming itself.

It is one of the great ironies of our world today that the very same headscarf revered as a sign of 'holiness' when worn for the purpose of showing the authority of man by Catholic Nuns, is reviled as a sign of 'oppression' when worn for the purpose of protection by Muslim women.

HeiGou · **Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition -** 04-09-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonz

St. Paul in the New Testament made some very interesting statements about the veil:

"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).

St. Paul's rationale for veiling women is that the veil represents a sign of the authority of the man, who is the image and glory of God, over the woman who was created from and for man.

This is the problem with these sorts of apologetics - where does Paul even mention the veil? He says to cover her hair. Like man should show respect by uncovering his head while praying, a women ought to show respect by covering her head while praying. And those keys words are "while praying". Paul says nothing about the rest of the time and you can see pious Catholic women wearing some sort of lace cover for their head, in Church, in Latin America and southern Europe today.

So to recap 1. Paul does not mention the veil much less hijab and 2. this applies in Church and only in Church.

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St. Tertullian in his famous treatise 'On The Veiling Of Virgins' wrote, "Young women, you wear your veils out on the streets, so you should wear them in the church, you wear them when you are among strangers, then wear them among your brothers..." Among the Canon laws of the Catholic church today, there is a law that requires women to cover their heads in church

.

Tertullian was a heretic all his life until the very end. His views on Christianity are hardly representative - you will notice he was not canonised nor his he a Father of the Church. Indeed he says about "heretical" women (i.e. Catholics I guess) "What a impudence among their women! They dare to teach, dispute, exorcise, to promise cures, perhaps to baptize" (Praescr., XLI, 5). The importance of this is that he gave advice, he did not lay down Church law.

He was also Tunisian by the way and so probably influenced by local culture.

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Some Christian denominations, such as the Amish and the Mennonites for example, keep their women veiled to the present day. The reason for the veil, as offered by their Church leaders, is that "The head covering is a symbol of woman's subjection to the man and to God", which is the same logic introduced by St. Paul in the New Testament

The Amish and Mennonites do not veil their women. Their women, if pious, cover their hair with a cloth. Again you blur the line between covering the head and hijab. The two are not even remotely similar.

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Thus, the purpose of the veil in Islam is protection. The Islamic veil, unlike the veil of the Christian tradition, is not a sign of man's authority over woman nor is it a sign of woman's subjection to man.

Well first of all Paul does not make the veil a sign of man's authority over women. You have misunderstood that passage. And second, of course it is a sign of women's subjugation to men in Islam - because Muslim men cannot be expected to control themselves, women have to adapt to their demands.

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The Islamic philosophy is that it is always better to be safe than sorry. In fact, the Quran is so concerned with protecting women's bodies and women's reputation that a man who dares to falsely accuse a woman of unchastity will be severely punished: "And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations)- Flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors" (24:4)

First of all, it is not clear that Islamic philosophy does always say it is better to be safe than sorry. At least it is not clear when it comes to rape, which it is better to be safe for - the victim or the criminals. The Quran punishes men who attack a woman's reputation. I notice that glides so very easily in your passage into protecting their bodies but that is simply dishonest. That passage only refers to their reputations, not their bodies.

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Compare this strict Quranic attitude with the extremely lax punishment for rape in the Bible:

" If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" (Deut. 22:28-30)

And again you take one small passage out of context and argues that applies to all rape. This is not a respectable way to behave. An honest approach would be to quote the entire passage on rape

[23] If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
[24] Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
[25] But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
[26] But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
[27] For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
[28] If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
[29] Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

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One must ask a simple question here, who is really punished? The man who only paid a fine for rape, or the girl who is forced to marry the man who raped her and live with him until he dies?

Who says she is forced to live with him until she dies?

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Another question that also should be asked is this: which is more protective of women, the Quranic strict attitude or the Biblical lax attitude?

You pass over the fact that the Quran does not talk about rape at all. And when the Hadith do, they demand four eyewitnesses. What chance of four eyewitnesses to a rape in the countryside where there is no one around? So in that particular circumstance Islamic law would not punish the rapist at all unless he confessed. So which is more protective of women in this specific case you have chosen - the Islamic law which would impose no punishment, or Jewish law that would impose a stinging fine?

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Some people, especially in the West, would tend to ridicule the whole argument of modesty for protection. Their argument is that the best protection is the spread of education, civilised behaviour, and self restraint.

We would say: fine but not enough. If 'civilization' is enough protection, then why is it that women in North America dare not walk alone in a dark street - or even across an empty parking lot ?

Actually they do. Every day. In the West you find women walking alone after dark, even in a state of intoxication, all the time. There are parts of the US where education, civilized behaviour and self-restraint have broken down but even there women are fairly safe. Unlike Bangladesh where 30 percent of rural women report their first sexual encounter was "forced".

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If education is the solution, then why is it that a respected university like Queen's has a 'walk home service' mainly for female students on campus?

To be on the safe side.

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If self restraint is the answer, then why are cases of sexual harassment in the workplace reported on the news media every day? A sample of those accused of sexual harassment, in the last few years, includes: Navy officers, Managers, University professors, Senators, Supreme Court Justices, and the President of the United States!

Because the demands of women have grown to not only include not being raped, but not being approached and talked to inappropriately - something the Muslim world has not begun to grapple with as can be seen be any woman who walks down the road in any Middle Eastern town or city. The rise of sexual harrassment shows how the battle against rape has been won in the West - it is not an important issue any more. Can Muslim women say the same?

And the difference between nuns and Muslimas, is that nuns choose a life of piety and holiness and renounciation. Their brothers do not force it on them.

Skillganon · **Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition -** 04-09-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeiGou

Well first of all Paul does not make the veil a sign of man's authority over women. You have misunderstood that passage. And second, of course it is a sign of women's subjugation to men in Islam - because Muslim men cannot be expected to control themselves, women have to adapt to their demands.

Muslim man cannot be expected to control themselve?

Who said muslim man cannot expect to control themselve!
Preist cannot be expected to control themselve so they have to fornicate wit other men!!!!

So the women has to cover their self decently?

Well, that myfreind is Allah's command, and women's preorgative!

Women subjugation by men in Islam?

Hey, any Gals here? Want to answer this short sightedness!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeiGou

First of all, it is not clear that Islamic philosophy does always say it is better to be safe than sorry. At least it is not clear when it comes to rape, which it is better to be safe for - the victim or the criminals. The Quran punishes men who attack a woman's reputation. I notice that glides so very easily in your passage into protecting their bodies but that is simply dishonest. That passage only refers to their reputations, not their bodies.

Does anyone know what's he on about with reputation and the body business.
(maybe in the morgue business). Can you be more clear, and provide reference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeiGou

And again you take one small passage out of context and argues that applies to all rape. This is not a respectable way to behave. An honest approach would be to quote the entire passage on rape

True, it's not good to take out things out of context. Agree absolutley.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeiGou

[23] If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
[24] Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

[25] But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die

[26] But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
[27] For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

[28] If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
[29] Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Hey, So what happen's to the damsel that is not betrothed, and the man rapes her?
Does the man die or does he get fined, does the have to get married?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeiGou

You pass over the fact that the Quran does not talk about rape at all. And when the Hadith do, they demand four eyewitnesses. What chance of four eyewitnesses to a rape in the countryside where there is no one around? So in that particular circumstance Islamic law would not punish the rapist at all unless he confessed. So which is more protective of women in this specific case you have chosen - the Islamic law which would impose no punishment, or Jewish law that would impose a stinging fine?

I think you are getting confused! The eyewitness are for Adultry not rape!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeiGou

Actually they do. Every day. In the West you find women walking alone after dark, even in a state of intoxication, all the time. There are parts of the US where education, civilized behaviour and self-restraint have broken down but even there women are fairly safe. Unlike Bangladesh where 30 percent of rural women report their first sexual encounter was "forced".

I think you are getting a bit confused, what's rural bangladesh got to do with anything.
Anyway, where do you get the stats.
The sex crime US is higer than anywhere else, Oyeah the women go willingy to bed with everyone!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeiGou

Because the demands of women have grown to not only include not being raped, but not being approached and talked to inappropriately - something the Muslim world has not begun to grapple with as can be seen be any woman who walks down the road in any Middle Eastern town or city. The rise of sexual harrassment shows how the battle against rape has been won in the West - it is not an important issue any more. Can Muslim women say the same?

The rise of sexual harrasment show's how battle has been won?

You are wrong, the rise of sexual harrasment shows Just that.. i.e. the rise of sexual harrasment. Women are getting sexually harrased by men.

Next rape is in the increase, in the west!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeiGou

And the difference between nuns and Muslimas, is that nuns choose a life of piety and holiness and renounciation. Their brothers do not force it on them.

THe brother forces it n the muslim siters

Hey' sis, can anyone educate him why you wear what you wear!!!

suhura · **Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition -** 04-09-2006

Like you said earlier bro Skillganon the veil is Allah's command and it's womens prerogative.

It is NOT a subjugation by men. It is clearly stated in the Quran which is God's word.

The Quran provides practical guidance to lead a peaceful life. Every rule and command Allah has made in the Quran helps us to deal with the problems and obstacles in our life.

As mentioned earlier by one of our fellow muslimah Islam believes that it is better to be safe than sorry.

When I was in secondary school, wearing short skirts I have received sex implicated looks from men. Believe me it is not something to be proud of for getting that kind of attention from men because I feel humiliated and treated like a prostitute. But know when I go to work in my hijab its a totally different story, men don't try to purposely rub against me or oogle at me instead they give way and smile as a sign of respect.

So does wearing the hijab mean its a subjugation to men? NO it does not. I wear the hijab because it protects me. When I wear the hijab I know that my virtue is safe as it sets boundaries and limits to my actions that may lead to regretful situations.

HeiGou · **Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition -** 04-09-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by suhura

Like you said earlier bro Skillganon the veil is Allah's command and it's womens prerogative.

It is NOT a subjugation by men. It is clearly stated in the Quran which is God's word.

And yet the Quran is full of God's words. God tells Muslim men to do a lot of things which, quite frankly, a lot of them do not do. Yet this one issue really gets to them and gets a lot of attention. Why is it so do you think?

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When I was in secondary school, wearing short skirts I have received sex implicated looks from men. Believe me it is not something to be proud of for getting that kind of attention from men because I feel humiliated and treated like a prostitute. But know when I go to work in my hijab its a totally different story, men don't try to purposely rub against me or oogle at me instead they give way and smile as a sign of respect.

So, essentially, what you are saying is that it is both God's word and it is subjugation by men? Basically they harrassed you into wearing it by treating you like dirt until you did? Great.

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So does wearing the hijab mean its a subjugation to men? NO it does not. I wear the hijab because it protects me. When I wear the hijab I know that my virtue is safe as it sets boundaries and limits to my actions that may lead to regretful situations.

Protects you from being mistreated by men. As I said....

suhura · **Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition -** 04-09-2006

Also nobody is forced is Islam. If the woman chooses not to cover herself she can do so but she will only bring harm to herself and still have to face the consequences in the afterlife.

Anyway I dont see any harm in covering oneself.

HeiGou · 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suhura

Also nobody is forced is Islam. If the woman chooses not to cover herself she can do so but she will only bring harm to herself and still have to face the consequences in the afterlife.

Anyway I dont see any harm in covering oneself.

Actually I do not see much harm in it myself. I kind of like the pretty multi-colored ones I see around. And a Shalwar Khameez is actually very stylish. If I had a daughter I would prefer she wear that than a miniskirt.

As I may have mentioned before, elsewhere, I am a very old fashioned boring sort of person.

But still it is not Islam that is forcing you. It is Muslim society. [edit] If my Father beat me when I failed an exam (not that he did) I assure you I would have passed more exams. But that wouldn't have been my choice.

Skillganon · 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeiGou

Actually I do not see much harm in it myself. I kind of like the pretty multi-colored ones I see around. And a Shalwar Khameez is actually very stylish. If I had a daughter I would prefer she wear that than a miniskirt.

As I may have mentioned before, elsewhere, I am a very old fashioned boring sort of person.

But still it is not Islam that is forcing you. It is Muslim society. [edit] If my Father beat me when I failed an exam (not that he did) I assure you I would have passed more exams. But that wouldn't have been my choice.

[edit]

Christian society treat's women as P*** Stars!!! Sexual Objects!

I don't know where you draw your line of reasoning!!

HeiGou · 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skillganon

[edit]

OK that was a little extreme. I apologise and take it back.

I was more than a little offended that anyone woudl treat a Sister, anyone's Sister, that way and I was perhaps a little intemperate.

Al-Mu'minah · 10:47 PM

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But still it is not Islam that is forcing you. It is Muslim society. [edit] If my Father beat me when I failed an exam (not that he did) I assure you I would have passed more exams. But that wouldn't have been my choice.

You way out of line. Your perspective of Muslim women and the Muslim community is full of hatred! Idiocy or what.

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I was more than a little offended that anyone woudl treat a Sister, anyone's Sister, that way and I was perhaps a little intemperate.

A little!!!! I think you're way out of line.

You know I gather you full of hatred towards Muslim's. Why I wonder? You are rather rude and extreme in your views. May Allah take that veil out of your hearts! What can I say deaf, dumb and blind to the truth!

suhura · **Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition -** 04-10-2006

Look guys dont be angry with Heigou he's only trying to express his views. Its our duty to tell the truth and set the recrds right for Islam. If Heigou doesn't want to accept our reasoning then Allah has not yet open his heart. We should pray that god will let him see the way. I think we should move on and not waste our time. It does feel like Heigou is trying to interrogate us until we break. But unfortunately that will not happen.

HeiGou · **Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition -** 04-10-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah

You way out of line. Your perspective of Muslim women and the Muslim community is full of hatred! Idiocy or what.

Actually I am really offended that anyone would come up and rub themselves up against a girl. Especially one still in High School. Seriously. Call that idiocy if you like, but that is really really offensive behaviour.

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You know I gather you full of hatred towards Muslim's. Why I wonder? You are rather rude and extreme in your views. May Allah take that veil out of your hearts! What can I say deaf, dumb and blind to the truth!

Well, I shall look at that and try to remember the good intention behind it.

Al-Mu'minah · **Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition -** 04-10-2006

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Originally Posted by suhura

Look guys dont be angry with Heigou he's only trying to express his views.

Some of his views are not needed! He should remember to keep his usless, baseless and rude comments himself.

sheerheart1 · 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeiGou

Actually I do not see much harm in it myself. I kind of like the pretty multi-colored ones I see around. And a Shalwar Khameez is actually very stylish. If I had a daughter I would prefer she wear that than a miniskirt.

.

why would u want ur daughter to wear mini skirts and not be covered and protected for me my hijaab is my protection i dont need to draw attention to myself like that better some one likes me for my brain than for what i have on show:rant: plus i think us muslimah's are distiguised in what we wear and we are very modern we just dont go around flashing what we have

samobosna96 · **Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition -** 04-10-2006

My wife loves wearing hijab. Grew up in the Middle east and does not feel for one moment that she is oppressed by Islam. Islam requires both men and women to protect their chastity. The women do not wear the viel because men cannot control themselves but because the women also has exual urges and must control them. The hijab is seen as a symbol of respect towards women. Women who wear hijab are not the ones going around having premarital sex and spreading sexual transmitted diseases. Why not actually speak with Muslim women instead of reading propoganda on Fathtolerance.org???

But yes there are men in the Muslim world who have taken rights away from the women, there is no doubt about this. We have seen it in Afghanistan and elsewhere, but this is hardly even close to Islam. A Muslim man who is aggressive to his wife neither understands Islam or human decency. The wife is a protection to the hisband just as the husband is protection to the wife.

Another thing Non-Muslims always speak of Niqaab or the burqa as a sign of oppression but my wife pleaded with me to wear one, actually pleaded with me to wear one. I though the hijab was enough but she wanted to cover herself uo even more to please Allah subhanna wa ta'ala, alhamduillah!

The onyl reason why non-muslims come and speak against Islam is because Islam is the truth. The decietful always want to debar the truthful from the straightpath, because they the disbelievers will never be ahppy unto Muslims follow their ways of life, other than Islam.

But I just want to underline the fact that you have to actually speak with Muslim women who are educated in their faith and not deviates like Irshad manji and the like. These kind of people deserve nothing less then eternal puishment from Allah subhanna wa ta'ala for their lies and misinformation.

Islam liberates women! When exactly did western women start getting rights? even today they are seen as nothing more than sexual objects? some women believe this to be liberation and she can jiggle her breasts on tv and make money. what kind of a man would respect a woman like this? I know I dont.

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sonz IB Oldtimer Status: Offline Posts: 1,470 Reputation: 1660 Rep Power: 33 Join Date: May 2005 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition - 04-08-2006 Let us shed some light on what is considered in the West as the greatest symbol of women's oppression and servitude, the veil or the head cover. Is it true that there is no such thing as the veil in the Judaeo-Christian tradition? Let us set the record straight. According to Rabbi Dr. Menachem M. Brayer (Professor of Biblical Literature at Yeshiva University) in his book, The Jewish woman in Rabbinic literature, it was the custom of Jewish women to go out in public with a head covering which, sometimes, even covered the whole face leaving one eye free [76]. He quotes some famous ancient Rabbis saying," It is not like the daughters of Israel to walk out with heads uncovered" and "Cursed be the man who lets the hair of his wife be seen....a woman who exposes her hair for self-adornment brings poverty." Rabbinic law forbids the recitation of blessings or prayers in the presence of a bareheaded married woman since uncovering the woman's hair is considered "nudity". Dr. Brayer also mentions that "During the Tannaitic period the Jewish woman's failure to cover her head was considered an affront to her modesty. When her head was uncovered she might be fined four hundred zuzim for this offense." Dr. Brayer also explains that veil of the Jewish woman was not always considered a sign of modesty. Sometimes, the veil symbolized a state of distinction and luxury rather than modesty. The veil personified the dignity and superiority of noble women. It also represented a woman's inaccessibility as a sanctified possession of her husband. The veil signified a woman's self-respect and social status. Women of lower classes would often wear the veil to give the impression of a higher standing. The fact that the veil was the sign of nobility was the reason why prostitutes were not permitted to cover their hair in the old Jewish society. However, prostitutes often wore a special headscarf in order to look respectable. Jewish women in Europe continued to wear veils until the nineteenth century when their lives became more intermingled with the surrounding secular culture. The external pressures of the European life in the nineteenth century forced many of them to go out bare-headed. Some Jewish women found it more convenient to replace their traditional veil with a wig as another form of hair covering. Today, most pious Jewish women do not cover their hair except in the synagogue. Some of them, such as the Hasidic sects, still use the wig. What about the Christian tradition? It is well known that Catholic Nuns have been covering their heads for hundreds of years, but that is not all. St. Paul in the New Testament made some very interesting statements about the veil: "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10). St. Paul's rationale for veiling women is that the veil represents a sign of the authority of the man, who is the image and glory of God, over the woman who was created from and for man. St. Tertullian in his famous treatise 'On The Veiling Of Virgins' wrote, "Young women, you wear your veils out on the streets, so you should wear them in the church, you wear them when you are among strangers, then wear them among your brothers..." Among the Canon laws of the Catholic church today, there is a law that requires women to cover their heads in church [82]. Some Christian denominations, such as the Amish and the Mennonites for example, keep their women veiled to the present day. The reason for the veil, as offered by their Church leaders, is that "The head covering is a symbol of woman's subjection to the man and to God", which is the same logic introduced by St. Paul in the New Testament [83]. From all the above evidence, it is obvious that Islam did not invent the head cover. However, Islam did endorse it. The Quran urges the believing men and women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty and then urges the believing women to extend their head covers to cover the neck and the bosom:"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...." (24:30,31). The Quran is quite clear that the veil is essential for modesty, but why is modesty important? The Quran is still clear: "O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their bodies (when abroad) so that they should be known and not molested" (33:59). This is the whole point, modesty is prescribed to protect women from molestation or simply, modesty is protection. Thus, the purpose of the veil in Islam is protection. The Islamic veil, unlike the veil of the Christian tradition, is not a sign of man's authority over woman nor is it a sign of woman's subjection to man. The Islamic veil, unlike the veil in the Jewish tradition, is not a sign of luxury and distinction of some noble married women. The Islamic veil is a sign of modesty with the purpose of protecting women, all women. The Islamic philosophy is that it is always better to be safe than sorry. In fact, the Quran is so concerned with protecting women's bodies and women's reputation that a man who dares to falsely accuse a woman of unchastity will be severely punished: "And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations)- Flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors" (24:4) Compare this strict Quranic attitude with the extremely lax punishment for rape in the Bible: " If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" (Deut. 22:28-30) One must ask a simple question here, who is really punished? The man who only paid a fine for rape, or the girl who is forced to marry the man who raped her and live with him until he dies? Another question that also should be asked is this: which is more protective of women, the Quranic strict attitude or the Biblical lax attitude? Some people, especially in the West, would tend to ridicule the whole argument of modesty for protection. Their argument is that the best protection is the spread of education, civilised behaviour, and self restraint. We would say: fine but not enough. If 'civilization' is enough protection, then why is it that women in North America dare not walk alone in a dark street - or even across an empty parking lot ? If education is the solution, then why is it that a respected university like Queen's has a 'walk home service' mainly for female students on campus? If self restraint is the answer, then why are cases of sexual harassment in the workplace reported on the news media every day? A sample of those accused of sexual harassment, in the last few years, includes: Navy officers, Managers, University professors, Senators, Supreme Court Justices, and the President of the United States! I could not believe my eyes when I read the following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's office at Queen's University: In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes", 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their lives", 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime", 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or university, and a study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get caught." Something is fundamentally wrong in the society we live in. A radical change in the society's life style and culture is absolutely necessary. A culture of modesty is badly needed, modesty in dress, in speech, and in manners of both men and women. Otherwise, the grim statistics will grow even worse day after day and, unfortunately, women alone will be paying the price. Actually, we all suffer but as K. Gibran has said, "...for the person who receives the blows is not like the one who counts them." [84] Therefore, a society like France which expels young women from schools because of their modest dress is, in the end, simply harming itself. It is one of the great ironies of our world today that the very same headscarf revered as a sign of 'holiness' when worn for the purpose of showing the authority of man by Catholic Nuns, is reviled as a sign of 'oppression' when worn for the purpose of protection by Muslim women. __________________ Check out my userpage MY PAGE RATE MY PAGE

	(#4 (permalink))
suhura Limited Member Status: Offline Posts: 19 Reputation: 10 Rep Power: 0 Join Date: Jun 2005 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition - 04-09-2006 Like you said earlier bro Skillganon the veil is Allah's command and it's womens prerogative. It is NOT a subjugation by men. It is clearly stated in the Quran which is God's word. The Quran provides practical guidance to lead a peaceful life. Every rule and command Allah has made in the Quran helps us to deal with the problems and obstacles in our life. As mentioned earlier by one of our fellow muslimah Islam believes that it is better to be safe than sorry. When I was in secondary school, wearing short skirts I have received sex implicated looks from men. Believe me it is not something to be proud of for getting that kind of attention from men because I feel humiliated and treated like a prostitute. But know when I go to work in my hijab its a totally different story, men don't try to purposely rub against me or oogle at me instead they give way and smile as a sign of respect. So does wearing the hijab mean its a subjugation to men? NO it does not. I wear the hijab because it protects me. When I wear the hijab I know that my virtue is safe as it sets boundaries and limits to my actions that may lead to regretful situations.

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suhura Limited Member Status: Offline Posts: 19 Reputation: 10 Rep Power: 0 Join Date: Jun 2005 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition - 04-09-2006 Also nobody is forced is Islam. If the woman chooses not to cover herself she can do so but she will only bring harm to herself and still have to face the consequences in the afterlife. Anyway I dont see any harm in covering oneself.

	(#11 (permalink))
suhura Limited Member Status: Offline Posts: 19 Reputation: 10 Rep Power: 0 Join Date: Jun 2005 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition - 04-10-2006 Look guys dont be angry with Heigou he's only trying to express his views. Its our duty to tell the truth and set the recrds right for Islam. If Heigou doesn't want to accept our reasoning then Allah has not yet open his heart. We should pray that god will let him see the way. I think we should move on and not waste our time. It does feel like Heigou is trying to interrogate us until we break. But unfortunately that will not happen.

	(#15 (permalink))
samobosna96 Full Member Status: Offline Posts: 66 Reputation: 20 Rep Power: 24 Join Date: Apr 2006 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: The Veil in Islam and the Judeo-Christian Tradition - 04-10-2006 My wife loves wearing hijab. Grew up in the Middle east and does not feel for one moment that she is oppressed by Islam. Islam requires both men and women to protect their chastity. The women do not wear the viel because men cannot control themselves but because the women also has exual urges and must control them. The hijab is seen as a symbol of respect towards women. Women who wear hijab are not the ones going around having premarital sex and spreading sexual transmitted diseases. Why not actually speak with Muslim women instead of reading propoganda on Fathtolerance.org??? But yes there are men in the Muslim world who have taken rights away from the women, there is no doubt about this. We have seen it in Afghanistan and elsewhere, but this is hardly even close to Islam. A Muslim man who is aggressive to his wife neither understands Islam or human decency. The wife is a protection to the hisband just as the husband is protection to the wife. Another thing Non-Muslims always speak of Niqaab or the burqa as a sign of oppression but my wife pleaded with me to wear one, actually pleaded with me to wear one. I though the hijab was enough but she wanted to cover herself uo even more to please Allah subhanna wa ta'ala, alhamduillah! The onyl reason why non-muslims come and speak against Islam is because Islam is the truth. The decietful always want to debar the truthful from the straightpath, because they the disbelievers will never be ahppy unto Muslims follow their ways of life, other than Islam. But I just want to underline the fact that you have to actually speak with Muslim women who are educated in their faith and not deviates like Irshad manji and the like. These kind of people deserve nothing less then eternal puishment from Allah subhanna wa ta'ala for their lies and misinformation. Islam liberates women! When exactly did western women start getting rights? even today they are seen as nothing more than sexual objects? some women believe this to be liberation and she can jiggle her breasts on tv and make money. what kind of a man would respect a woman like this? I know I dont.