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Comparative religion Thread, Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter? in General Forums; Originally Posted by dougmusr I think a more accurate statement would be that the Christian New Testament corrected the Judaic ...
  1. #106
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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougmusr View Post
    I think a more accurate statement would be that the Christian New Testament corrected the Judaic misunderstanding of salvation. If this were not the case, then God would have discontinued sending prophets.
    I can appreciate that to be the Christian perspective, but regardless we are agreed that the Christian doctrines have some radically different ideas from the Jewish scripture.
    It is my understanding that Islam holds that God has abrogated both by sending Muhammed and revealing the Quran.
    No, the message and beliefs of the Prophets is the same. What is abrogated is the ritual laws and religious legislation of the previous prophets, in the sense that the followers of Prophet Muhammad pbuh are to follow the religious practices and laws he brought in their day to day affairs.
    Actually, I believe you said on another post that only those people alive during the earthly ministry of Christ, and this was only a few years had to follow Him to attain paradise. What about from 33AD to 632AD?
    Sorry, I should clarify. The people who are to believe in Prophet Jesus are the people who recieved his message, those to whom he was sent. So even after his ministry people were to follow him. This was before the coming of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. So between 33CE and 610CE, a person who recieved the message of Prophet Jesus pbuh properly was to follow it. The others will be judged according to their circumstances and what they knew of the truth, much like today if a person does not recieve the message of Islam properly, they will be judged according to their circumstances.


    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    You all agree that Jesus was more than a normal man, yet according to the Torah which by the why says that no other book shall ever be sent from G-d to replace it (That is why the Quran, New Testamant are not vaild under Judaism) proves that Jesus was not a prophet because he did not meet the standards to be a prophet set forth by the Torah.

    Therefore. Jesus was nothing more than a normal man. But I am sure I will here about how the Torah was 'corrupted' and so on and so forth.

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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    what about the Psalms of doud (David) and the suhouf/ scrolls of Abraham/les feuilles de Abraham .... does the Torah also see them as invalid? since the Torah is the only book? Also if the Torah is the only book, why do you need the Talmud and the Mishna? technically rabbis wrote those? they can be "false" prophets no?
    Last edited by ßlµêßêll; 08-18-2006 at 04:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    Quote Originally Posted by therebbe View Post
    You all agree that Jesus was more than a normal man, yet according to the Torah which by the why says that no other book shall ever be sent from G-d to replace it (That is why the Quran, New Testamant are not vaild under Judaism) proves that Jesus was not a prophet because he did not meet the standards to be a prophet set forth by the Torah.

    Therefore. Jesus was nothing more than a normal man. But I am sure I will here about how the Torah was 'corrupted' and so on and so forth.
    lol how did u knwo this was coming?

    So was the torah in the original language preserved from since Moses? i mean the origianl tablets? or maybe something written by ppl hwo live in his times or met/knew him ?

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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    why do you need the Talmud and the Mishna? technically rabbis wrote those? they can be "false" prophets no?
    Where did the Hadiths come from?

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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougmusr View Post
    Where did the Hadiths come from?
    Hadith literature means the literature which consists of the narrations of the life of the Prophet and the things approved by him supported by the Quran--"And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment. " [Qur'an 59:7]
    Not the interpretation by various groups written during the destruction of the 2nd temple and the revolt against Rome and Years after Moses so as to not meet with his approval... if by the above remark you were wishing to make a point?

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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    Not the interpretation by various groups written during the destruction of the 2nd temple and the revolt against Rome and Years after Moses so as to not meet with his approval... if by the above remark you were wishing to make a point?
    I just find it amusing that the Hadiths were written by humans about the life of Muhammed, and the Gospels were written by humans about the life of Christ, but only the Gospel writers were motivated to and were capable of bungling, misquoting, misinterpreting, and even intentionally deceiving the target audience.

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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougmusr View Post
    I just find it amusing that the Hadiths were written by humans about the life of Muhammed, and the Gospels were written by humans about the life of Christ, but only the Gospel writers were motivated to and were capable of bungling, misquoting, misinterpreting, and even intentionally deceiving the target audience.
    don't be surprised there are hadiths that can be classfied as "o7ad" or "twator"... you need a consensus and five or more sources, and still some might be considered weak, questionable or untrue.... but the Quran is uncorrupted... even if we did away with all the Hadiths we would still have the one uncorrupted book in which every copy is identical for the last 1400 years preserved in its mother tongue... by the way on a side note... we don't worship Mohammed... the Quran isn't about the life of mohammed in fact if you read it you'll notice Jesus mentioned 20 times where as prophet mohammed mentioned only 5--------peace

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougmusr View Post
    I just find it amusing that the Hadiths were written by humans about the life of Muhammed, and the Gospels were written by humans about the life of Christ, but only the Gospel writers were motivated to and were capable of bungling, misquoting, misinterpreting, and even intentionally deceiving the target audience.
    The most obvious difference between the hadiths and the gospels is the isnad system of the former. The hadiths are composed of both isnad (chain of narrators) and matn (the actual text of the hadith). By studying the chain of narrators, the hadith's authenticity can be classified. The gospels are composed of only matn, no isnad. Can you provide an unbroken chain of narrators for an NT verse along with the biographies of each person in the chain?


    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    The most obvious difference between the hadiths and the gospels is the isnad system of the former. The hadiths are composed of both isnad (chain of narrators) and matn (the actual text of the hadith). By studying the chain of narrators, the hadith's authenticity can be classified. The gospels are composed of only matn, no isnad. Can you provide an unbroken chain of narrators for an NT verse along with the biographies of each person in the chain?
    Even if you can follow the Hadiths back to their original sources, when you get done the most you can say is you have a copy of the original. You can not however say that the documents you have are true. This requires faith.

    don't be surprised there are hadiths that can be classfied as "o7ad" or "twator"... you need a consensus and five or more sources, and still some might be considered weak, questionable or untrue....
    Apparently Hadiths have to meet a certain criteria to be accepted. I suspect the same was true for the Quran when it was assembled from various recitations 400 or so years after Muhammed's death. The mere act of imposing a scriptural validity test prior to assembly of the final document implies the imposition of a judgement by one or more fallable humans on the final product. You feel the Quran was protected by God, and that tracability is proof of God's protection. I don't agree. So we will just have to differ on which book is God's Word and let Him decide who was right in the end.

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    why do you need the Talmud and the Mishna?
    Actually the Talmud and Mishna are the oral laws given to us by G-d, with the commentaries and interpretations of our wisest Rabbi's on them.

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougmusr View Post
    Even if you can follow the Hadiths back to their original sources, when you get done the most you can say is you have a copy of the original. You can not however say that the documents you have are true. This requires faith.
    You asked why the writers of the gospels are charged with failing to transmit accurately the teachings of Jesus while the hadith narrators are not, is that right? The difference of course is the chain of narration. For one particular hadith, we will have numerous chains of narrators stemming back to actual ear and eye-witnesses who transmitted the saying. When it comes to the gospels, they were ascribed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but without a chain of narrators one cannot be sure of how accurately the information was transmitted. Even if we were certain, there are still so many questions about them. The earliest gospel is ascribed to Mark, who never met Jesus.
    I suspect the same was true for the Quran when it was assembled from various recitations 400 or so years after Muhammed's death.
    I don't know where you got that idea from but it is laughably wrong. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh had over 60 scribes recording the Qur'an for him in his lifetime, it was memorized in its entirety by his companions and it was and is recited out loud in the congregation prayers.To this day, every Ramadan the Imam recites the Qur'an from cover to cover in from of the entire congregation. Keep in mind that the Qur'an is very different from the NT in that the Qur'an is an inextricable part of the ritual practices of the Muslims. It is mandatory to recite it in every single unit of prayer, of which there are no less than five compulsory prayers adding up to a total of 17 units of prayer daily.

    In written form it was assembled into one manuscript under the supervision of the first caliph Abu Bakr who ruled for 2 years after the Prophet's death, until he too passed away; a long shot from 400 years!

    Even the most ardent opponents of Islam amongst the orientalists do not dispute the preservation of the Qur'an!
    'This Text of the Qur'an is the purest of all works of alike antiquity' (Wherry, Commentary on the Koran, I. p. 349).

    'Othman's recension has remained the authorised text from the time it was made until the present day'
    (Palmer, The Qur'an, p. lix).

    'The text of this recension substantially corresponds to the actual utterances of Muhammad himself'
    (Arnold, Islamic Faith, p. 9).

    'All sects and parties have the same text of the Qur'an' (Hurgronje, Mohammedanism, p. 18).

    'It is an immense merit in the Kuran that there is no doubt as to its genuineness That very word we can now read with full confidence that it has remained unchanged through nearly thirteen hundred years' (LSK., p.3)

    'The recension of 'Othman has been handed down unaltered. There is probably in the world no other work which has remained twelve centuries with so pure a text'
    (Muir, Life of Mohammed, pp. XXII-XXIII).

    'In the Kuran we have, beyond all reasonable doubt, the exact words of Mohammed without subtraction and without addition' (Bosworth Smith, Mohammamed and Mohammedanism, p. 22)

    'The Koran was his own creation; and it lies before us practically unchanged from the form which he himself gave it'
    (Torrey, Jewish Foundations of Islam, p.2).

    'Modern critics agree that that the copies current today are almost exact replicas of the original mother-text as compiled by Zayd, and that, on the whole, the text of the Koran todaay is as Muhammad prodcued it. As some Semitic scholar remarked, there are probably more variations in the reading of one chapter of Genesis in Hebrew than there are in the entire Koran' (Hitti, History of the Arabs, p. 123).
    Regards


    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    'Othman's recension has remained the authorised text from the time it was made until the present day' (Palmer, The Qur'an, p. lix).
    re·cen·sion Audio pronunciation of "recension" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-snshn)
    n.

    1. A critical revision of a text incorporating the most plausible elements found in varying sources.
    2. A text so revised.

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougmusr View Post
    re·cen·sion Audio pronunciation of "recension" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-snshn)
    n.

    1. A critical revision of a text incorporating the most plausible elements found in varying sources.
    2. A text so revised.
    I expected that you would comment on that. The point of course is that Uthman was one of the Prophet's companions and palmer says that the text has been preserved since then. You'll notice also that many of them say the Qur'an is Muhammad's words which Muslims would reject as false. I'm just quoting their statements which show that even they, as the most hostile of all non-muslim orientalists, realized that the text has been preserved since the time of the Prophet.
    And they call it Uthman's recension since it was the edition compiled under his supervision, reviewing it verse-by-verse.


    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

  15. #120
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    Default Re: Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?

    Quote Originally Posted by abd77 View Post
    Muhammad said he was a prophet, therefore we have two possibilities; either he said the truth, or he was a liar and an imposter. Only one of these 2 can be true.

    Let’s 1st look at the hypothesis that he was a liar and an imposter, that he himself invented the Quran, and that even though he was illiterate.
    First what was Muhammad’s interest to create a new religion? Until the age of 40, he lived a happy and comfortable life with his rich wife Khadija, he was loved and respected for his honesty and morality by all of his tribe. Why would he have gone through 10 years of persecutions, hardships and reject from most of his tribe, what was his interest in going through so much suffering and persevering in the transmission of his message?

    Until the end of his mission, even when he ruled almost the whole of the Arabic peninsula (a territory about 5 times the size of France), he always lived in the most complete destitution, sleeping on a bed of dried leaves, without a castle nor a palace or anything resembling it, without a single bodyguard, wearing clothes repaired by himself, shoes repaired by himself… Why did this “imposter” never used all his power to acquire wealth, palaces and luxurious gardens like other kings and heads of states?
    And if he only had created this religion in reaction to Jews and Christians as some have claimed, why would about half of the Prophets mentioned in the Quran would be …Jewish? Why does the Quran praise so much Mary the mother of Jesus, a Jewish woman, but never mentions Muhammad’s mother, nor any member of his family?
    In order to convince the Arabs, who were often in conflict with the Jews, wouldn’t it have been easier to denigrate all these Jews instead of praising them? Yes, but that’s neither what the Quran says, nor what Muhammad said.

    Moreover, if you wanted to create and spread a new religion, surely you’d make it easy to practice, with as few constraints as possible, just like most idolatrous religions of the time. Would you try to impose the complete banning of alcohol, a whole month of fasting every year, 5 compulsory daily prayers at fixed times?… No, it wouldn’t make sense, because nobody would follow such a religion. But amazingly that’s what the Quran and Muhammad have done, without ever accepting any compromise to this message. And the most extraordinary is that this religion has triumphed over all the others !

    If Muhammad was an imposter, what was his personal interest to have his people abide by these countless food restrictions, this entire month of fasting every year, these 5 compulsory prayers every day? Why did he insist so much on these restrictions, which personal interest did he get from it?
    Of course none, it even made many tribes hesitate and sometimes abandon him. It really made his mission very much harder to fulfill, but yet he never accepted any compromise to this message.
    In a famous episode of Muhammad’s life, a tribe called Thaqif accepted to convert to Islam and to obey Muhammad if he allowed them to keep some of their idols and to be exempted from the 5 daily prayers. Muhammad refused categorically. Rather than to acquire absolute power over this important tribe without any effort, he preferred to remain faithful to the message God had transmitted him.


    But let’s still continue this hypothesis “Muhammad was an imposter and invented the Quran”, already shaken by these few facts; if Muhammad wasn’t guided by God, then we also have to admit that he was:

    -The greatest Arabic writer in history ; because no one can deny that the Quran is the greatest literary piece ever written in this language. Still 14 Centuries later, if you go to any University to study Arabic literature, you’ll study mainly the Quran for its inimitable style and the beauty of its verses. God himself challenges anyone to produce anything like it (Quran 11:13,14). A challenge that still 14 Centuries later no human has been able to meet.

    -A scientific genius; the reproduction of humans, of plants, the aquatic origin of all life, the orbits of the sun and the earth, the expansion of the Universe, these are a few of the scientific truths mentioned in the Quran, some of which discovered more than 1000 years later.

    -A genius in medicine; thanks to its very strict hygiene and food restrictions, the Quran and the Sunna (the teachings of Muhammad) have allowed Muslim countries that abode by these laws to be spared from most great epidemics that wreaked havoc in other parts of the world. Still today, look at how the latest great epidemics, the AIDS virus, has strangely largely spared the Middle East, the Maghreb and the Arabic peninsula (all the Muslim countries), whereas it causes havoc in all the neighboring regions (Sub-Saharian Africa and South-Western Asia).
    Everyone now recognizes the importance of diet, sexual non promiscuity and regular washing of one’s feet and hands to prevent the transmission of diseases. All these principles were dictated 14 Centuries ago by an illiterate Arab who had never studied medicine in his life.

    -A genius in law ; The Quran and Muhammad’s Sunna are the first great legislation in history to elaborate such a comprehensive list of the rights and duties of all human beings (several thousands of pages covering a multitude of fields), about 11 Centuries before the West had any kind of counterpart with the Universal Declaration of the Human Rights, itself much less comprehensive than the vastness of domains broached by the Islamic Law.

    -A speaker with amazing eloquence; thanks to his wisdom and eloquence, Muhammad managed to touch the heart of billions of human beings and to convince them that he was the Messenger of God, and that in spite of the horrendous persecutions that hit the first men and women that believed in his Mission. He was so much admired that tens of thousands of pages of his sermons and teachings were memorized by his companions and their descendants and put into writing to constitute what we now call the Sunna.
    From which other great Man of History have we preserved so many teachings?

    -A military genius; what Muhammad accomplished in this field in so little time, he who until the age of 52 (when God revealed him the verse ordering him to defend himself) had never shown any interest for war nor had had any experience whatsoever neither as a fighter or as a strategist, is really beyond the extraordinary.
    He’s often compared to Alexander the Great and Napoleon, but what Muhammad accomplished is even more extraordinary, and that for the 2 following reasons:

    -While the vast empires that Alexander and Napoleon established crumbled pretty quickly (a few decades after his death for Alexander and in his own lifetime for Napoleon, which shows how little support they had in the land they had conquered), the conquests of Islam not only didn’t crumble after Muhammad’s death, but continued to expand under his companions and successors. Even during the era of colonization, while the Europeans had managed to impose Christianity in most of their colonies, they never succeeded in Muslim countries, such was the attachment of Muslims to their religion. On the contrary, 14 Centuries later, in the whole of Europe and North America, it is islam and mosques are spreading like flooding waters.

    -Another big difference: Greece already was a powerful nation when Alexander took power, and France was along with England the most powerful country in Europe when Napoleon came to power. In other words Alexander and Napoleon had right from the start huge means; a great, experienced and well-equipped army…
    Muhammad had nothing, no army, no king or nation to support him, he was at the beginning completely alone. He had to convince his co-tribesmen and contemporaries one by one about the truth of his Mission, endure his tribe’s persecutions, build with his companions makeshift weapons to defend himself, then constitute a modest army with people who for many of them had no experience in fighting whatsoever.
    From this modest start, and thanks to miraculous victories over armies largely superior in numbers and in means, he succeeded in spreading Islam over almost the whole of the Arabic Peninsula.
    How could a man have achieved such a feat if he had not been protected and guided by God?

    -A political genius; thanks to judicious treaties with other Arab tribes, intelligent strategic decisions both in and off the battlefield, Muhammad managed to spread Islam on most of the Arab peninsula, and make of this forgotten and desertic land the heart of a civilization that would later expand from Morocco to India !
    And what other great King or Emperor managed to rule over such a large territory without ever owning any palace, any fortress, any bodyguard, relying only on his Lord and Creator to Guide him and Protect him?

    History has seen a few literary geniuses, and also a few military geniuses, and a handful of geniuses in each of the fields I have mentioned.
    But having a man excel in all these fields at once, surpassing all the geniuses from any period of History in such various and different domains, it is simply out of this world. And this coming from a man who had never followed any education and could hardly even read ! ! !

    Is it reasonable to think that this man (who until the age of 40¾the beginning of his Mission¾ had never shown any interest for any of these fields) could have suddenly become such a genius?
    Or is it more reasonable to think that something really extraordinary happened in this night of the year 610, that through the Angel Gabriel it is really God that addressed him and Guided him in a Divine Mission.


    You can guess of course what my opinion is. An opinion based not only on faith but also on reason.

    In conclusion, here’s what the great French poet Lamartine said after studying his life:
    “If the greatness of a man is to be measured by comparing the smallness of his means with the greatness of his accomplishments, then what great man in History can seriously be compared to Muhammad."
    Lamartine, Histoire de la Turquie.


    In truth there are really obvious signs for people who meditate. (Quran 13:3)


    read carefully so if he was deceived by satan then Muhmmad must be the greatest scientist in the world which mean you are saying Muhammad is the author of Quran, the Quran has scientific facts that is discovered recently

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