Greetings in peace Les_Nubian;

The posting of this article is to promote THINKING. Not just blindly following something that there is no (as far as some are concerned) real proof for.

Some things we just have to accept on trust without total proof.

People believe in a God, but there is no real proof.
People believe in life after death but there is no real proof.

In the spirit of striving for a greater faith

Eric

Originally Posted by Eric H

Greetings in peace Les_Nubian;


Some things we just have to accept on trust without total proof.

People believe in a God, but there is no real proof.
People believe in life after death but there is no real proof.

In the spirit of striving for a greater faith

Eric

Sure people believe in God without physical "proof", because God is not a physical being. But this is a MAN we're talking about here. A supposed living, breathing, walking the earth, MAN. I'm just saying, that great historical figures like this usually have some sort of records, like at least people writing about the person, and their life story, etcetera...but I'm guessing the article argues that the bible only states what Jesus supposedly did and said in past-tense, and that there is no real "proof" or "evidence" of him existing.

Again, I'm realy not on either side, I just wanted to see your opinions on the matter. I truly didn't mean to offend anyone...I didn't think anyone here would be so sensitive to the matter, but I guess that's why God just made us all so different. The world would be boring otherwise.

Eric and phill

Some things we don't know, and thus have to take on faith, regardless of what religion we have. But this is not one of those things. This is a so-called research in history, but if you read my reply you'd see that it's all a big hype based on lies and twisting of words. Had the topicnever been started, but the person try to close her mind to it, it would have sticked around in the background, and from the second there's rough times, and faith becomes hard, shaytan would be there helping you to remember. Now by posting it, we've been able to discuss it, and I've been able to answer some of the arguments. Perhaps even convinced her this is all lies. SO you see it was a very good thing that she posted it. When you have a question, you ask it. there's no shame in asking questions. In fact it's a virtue and sign of strong faith to look for answers in order to strenghthen the faith.

Greetings Les_Nubian and Steve;

I am not offended by anything that has been said, beliefs will always be challenged in many different ways, I am sure you have had your own faith challenged many times.

The Prophet pbuh, commanded armies and influenced history so his names should also be in the history books. Jesus had a much lower background in life, he was a carpenter and he was crucified like a criminal, he rose again from the dead and a number of people witnessed this. Their collective stories have been gathered together and form part of the Bible.

There is a saying that the victors write the history books. The Jews crucified Christ so they would probably want to suppress anything to do with him. He was only a carpenter after all and his teachings challenged the ways of the Pharisees who preached the Jewish Faith.
The Romans had condemned him and handed him over to the Jews for crucifixion, why should they want to acknowledge his existence?

Yet we say there is no proof in history books, but I wonder if you have ever considered one very minor point.

The Roman Empire controlled much of the known world at the time of Christ, and it also controlled the Roman Calendar. Yet a few centuries later the Romans scrapped their hold on the calendar, and re wrote it set on the life of Christ. We are now in the year 2006 after Christ.

In the spirit of searching together in faith

Eric

Originally Posted by steve

There wasn't a nation that has not recieved messages.

Please name those messengers that were sent to:

Tasmania
Argentina
Japan
Papua New Guinea
The South island of New Zealand

and we can go from there.

Originally Posted by steve

Eric and phill

Some things we don't know, and thus have to take on faith, regardless of what religion we have. But this is not one of those things. This is a so-called research in history, but if you read my reply you'd see that it's all a big hype based on lies and twisting of words. Had the topicnever been started, but the person try to close her mind to it, it would have sticked around in the background, and from the second there's rough times, and faith becomes hard, shaytan would be there helping you to remember. Now by posting it, we've been able to discuss it, and I've been able to answer some of the arguments. Perhaps even convinced her this is all lies. SO you see it was a very good thing that she posted it. When you have a question, you ask it. there's no shame in asking questions. In fact it's a virtue and sign of strong faith to look for answers in order to strenghthen the faith.

Exactly Steve, you are very right.

That's why these type of discussions when in doubt are very important. You can't just let it sit in the back of your mind, and have doubts about it all the time...you have to get it out there, and get other people's points of view.

Thanks again, brother (Steve). :sister:

Originally Posted by Joe98

Please name those messengers that were sent to:

Tasmania
Argentina
Japan
Papua New Guinea
The South island of New Zealand

and we can go from there.

Greetings,
There were at least 124 000 Prophets of whom 315 were Messengers, as related in the Musnad of Imâm Ahmad. The Qur'an tells us that every nation recieved a warner (i.e. a Prophet), it does not list all 124 000 names, only the 25 listed earlier in this thread.

Regards

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

The Qur'an tells us that every nation recieved a warner (i.e. a Prophet),

That can't be true because no prophet got to any of the places I listed.

Originally Posted by Joe98

That can't be true because no prophet got to any of the places I listed.

Let us take a look at the places you just mentioned.

Tasmania
Argentina
Japan
Papua New Guinea
The South island of New Zealand

Four of them have only been inhabited, in recent times, in terms of the existence of civilization. They were probably founded by wayfarars from established civilizations.

Tasmania
Argentina
Papua New Guinea
The South island of New Zealand

We state that prophets have been sent to all people and all nations. However, that dosen't necessary mean the people are still living in the same locality their ancestors were living at the time a prophet was sent to them. All evidence indicates that the indigneous people of those 4 countries came from prior locations.

I set Japan aside , as Japan has probably been inhabited much longer and may even date back prior to Egypt. It seems possible that a prophet was sent to them. we do know that the teachings of Shintoism and Buddhism do carry at least a part of what is revealed through the prophets, so it does seem that at one time a prophet did speak to the Japanese.



Now getting back to a question that several members here raised. That is about the value of this thread. True the title does go against both Muslim and Christian beliefs. Yet, I can not think of any title that would be more accurate. Reading through the replies, I see that the topic has brought forth some very legitimate replies. The subject may be controversial, but the replies show a good deal of uniformity and agreement that Jesus(as) did historicaly exist.

Originally Posted by Les_Nubian

Sure people believe in God without physical "proof", because God is not a physical being. But this is a MAN we're talking about here. A supposed living, breathing, walking the earth, MAN. I'm just saying, that great historical figures like this usually have some sort of records, like at least people writing about the person, and their life story, etcetera...but I'm guessing the article argues that the bible only states what Jesus supposedly did and said in past-tense, and that there is no real "proof" or "evidence" of him existing.

Again, I'm realy not on either side, I just wanted to see your opinions on the matter. I truly didn't mean to offend anyone...I didn't think anyone here would be so sensitive to the matter, but I guess that's why God just made us all so different. The world would be boring otherwise.

Well sis I already told you that belief in the prophets is one of the 6 pillars of faith. You have to believe in all the prophets as a Muslim. Part of being a believer is having yaqeen, certainty in Islam.

Originally Posted by Woodrow

All evidence indicates that the indigneous people of those 4 countries came from prior locations.

Yes, 10,000 - 20,000 - 50,000 years ago.

Tell us again when the messages were sent?

That can't be true because no prophet got to any of the places I listed.

Do you mean because those places were unreachable? Well what if a prophet was born in such a region then

Originally Posted by Joe98

Yes, 10,000 - 20,000 - 50,000 years ago.

Tell us again when the messages were sent?

Does it matter?

Originally Posted by steve

Does it matter?

Yes. According to a post above the Koran said that every land received a prophet.

1. Thats not possible

2. If each group of people around the world received a prophet how come there are no stories from anywhere on the earth except the Middle East?

Originally Posted by Joe98

1. Thats not possible

Why is that impossible?

2. If each group of people around the world received a prophet how come there are no stories from anywhere on the earth except the Middle East?

Difrent reasons:
1. Not all nations have writen history, so not all stories were writen down.
2. Not all prophets were recognised, most didn't have large numbers of folowers.
3. Some might have survived history, but aren't recognised as islamic prophets today. there are some historical people of whom it has been suggested that they were in fact prophets, but it's very hard to establish that. And since Islam is already considered to be complete as guidance, there's no good reason to accept them as prophet, we leave the possibility open, but we don't change our ways based on it.
4. All nations recieved a message through a warner, but not all warners were prophets. Right now, we are explaining some parts of our faith to you, so we could be considered warners conveying you the message, but that doesn't make us prophets, far from it

Originally Posted by Joe98

Yes, 10,000 - 20,000 - 50,000 years ago.

Tell us again when the messages were sent?

The time is irrelevent. One billion years is insignificant in terms of eternity.

Good point. A refutation I often get from people when I talk about the Qur'an is that the ideas were stolen from the ancient books of the Babylonians, Assyrians, etc.

My counter arguement is that is because they all had contact with a prophet at some point in their history. Even when speaking of the Native American religions and the worship of Manitou or the religions of the aborigianal Australians. You will find stories similar to some of the writtings in the Qur'an. Which makes since as they had they same source, even if much of the words were lost.

In every ancient religion I have ever studies there is a strong resmbalance in at least some of their stories, that indicate some contact with somebody who had contact with a prophet in the past.