Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Peace, Yoshiyahu.

Let's take a look at this verse:
Psalm 82:5-7*

They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
I said, "You are ELOHIM,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.

If I understand correctly, Elohim is being used to refer to mortals in this passage.

I agree - that is what I reffered to in Post #12

I agree that verbs and titles can be used with a plural ending to refer to a single thing in certain cases, but I have not seen cases where a persons name that is singular (ex: Adam) can be changed to a plural (Ex: Adamim) to show respect. However, I will ask a Hebrew teacher of mine if she knows of any cases where this happens.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Peace Yoshiyahu,
I did some searching and i came up with some other Hebrew nouns that are plural in form but singluar in meaning. The following is a list. The masculine plural ending is 'im' and the feminine plural ending is 'oth'.

zequnim — old age (Gen. 21:2, 7; 37:3; 44:20).


ne`urim — youth. David was only a boy (na`ar), but Goliath "has been a fighting man from his youth [ne`urim]" (1 Sam. 17:33).


chayyim — life. This is used in the song "To life, to life, lechayyim" in Fiddler on the Roof.


gebhuroth — strength. The singular form gebhurah is the usual word for strength, but the plural form is used in Job 41:12.


tsedaqoth — righteousness. The singular form tsedaqah is the usual word, but tsedaqoth is used in Isaiah 33:15 — "he who walks righteously [or "in righteousness"]."


chokmoth — wisdom. Chokmah is the usual form, but chokmoth is used in Prov. 1:20.

'adonim — lord. 'adon means "lord," and 'adonim normally means "lords," but Isa. 19:4 says, "I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master ['adonim]."

behemoth. This word normally means beasts, but in Job 40:15 it refers to one animal.

To me, 'adonim seems like the best comparison with Muhammadim.

For more information on the subject, consult Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, pages 396-401, 1909 edition.

Well if you compare 'adonim and Muhammadim, they both are similar.

Also, the name Muhammad can be regarded as a title as well.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Elohim?

Elohim typically refers to a holy group or gathering.
When you see Elohim in Genesis, it does not only mean HaShem, it means HaShem and an assortment of Angels that compose the holy court in heaven.

Is this agreed upon? I thought most Jews felt that it was specific to God, singular.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Is this agreed upon? I thought most Jews felt that it was specific to God, singular.

Aye. Grammatically, it is singular (just as one herd is singular and plural), but in the Jewish tradition it is agreed upon that it actually refers to the heavenly court when HaShem consulted his angels on the creation of the universe. It is plain to see when early in the first chapter it says "Let us make man in our image":

Gen 1:26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."

And here is the commentary that goes along side it:

Let us make man From here we learn the humility of the Holy One, blessed be He. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, He consulted them. And when He judges kings, He consults with His Heavenly household, for so we find regarding Ahab, that Micah said to him, (I Kings 22:19): “I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.” Now do “left” or “right” apply to Him ?! But rather, [the passage means that] these [angels] were standing on the right to defend, and these [angels] were standing on the left to prosecute. Likewise, (Dan. 4:14): “By the decree of the destructive angels is the matter, and by the word of the holy ones is the edict.” Here too, He took counsel with His heavenly household. He said to them, “Among the heavenly beings, there are some in My likeness. If there are none in My likeness among the earthly beings, there will be envy among the creatures of the Creation. ” - [from Tanchuma, Shemoth 18; Gen. Rabbah 8:11, 14:13]
Let us make man Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it [i. e., in the following verse:]“And God created (וַיִּבְרָא) ,” and it does not say,“and they created וַיִּבְרְאוּ.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]
in our image in our form.
after our likeness to understand and to discern.
and they shall rule over the fish Heb. וְיִרְדּוּ This expression contains both the meaning of ruling and the meaning of subservience. If he merits, he rules over the beasts and over the cattle. If he does not merit, he becomes subservient to them, and the beast rules over him. — [from Gen. Rabbah 8:12]

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...showrashi=true

Originally Posted by yoshiyahu

Hi Kafadi,

Thanks for the quick response.
I don't identify this as Jesus - I am not a Christian.
Rather, these (and the other "servant" passages) are about Israel. Let's take a look at the context of Isaiah 42. Right before it begins, in Chapter 41, we read:

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. [9] [Thou] whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou [art] my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. (KJV)

Other verses in the "servant" passages identify this as Israel also:

[44:1] Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: [2] Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. (KJV)

[44:21] Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (KJV)

[45:4] For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (KJV)

[49:3] And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. (KJV)

Peace yoshiyahu,

I disagree with your point. It's not referrin' to Israel. The reason is that when the term my servant is mentioned, the person referrin' is also mentioned in the same verse.

For example,

Isaiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia.

Isaiah 37:35 For I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.Similiary, the verses you cited also mention his names. However, the passage(s) (Isaiah 42) do not mention the prophecied Servant of God. And the qualities mentioned in the passage(s) of this particular person lead to Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

While I don't agree with the Christian belief that this refers to Jesus, why would his humiliation cause this not to refer to him?

Because it contradicts the followin' verse related to the prophecy:
He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

Where does this say that they will recieve a prophet? It seems to me that it is G-d telling them to praise him, and that G-d will destroy his enemies.

They will receive a revelation 'cause they promised one (refer to the above passages).

Furthermore, the Muslims were overjoyed when the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) arrived.

The women and children chanted, ‘This is the Messenger of Allah who has come! This is the Messenger of Allah who has come!'


The girls of the Ansar recited:
The full moon shines down upon us from Thaniyat al-Wada'.
We must all give our thanksgiving all the while praising Allaah
You whom Allaah sends among us,
What you bring, we will obey
You've ennobled Madinah.
Welcome now! Guide us to His way!

Compare that to the above mentioned passage.

So we get a translation of "His mouth is most sweet; and he is altogether Mohammed(s). This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

Why is Mohammed being mentioned in a passage that is part of a love song between King Solomon and his Wife?

There is no plural but a grandeur.

For a more detailed elobration (lackin' time), please refer to

http://www.geocities.com/islamicmira...songs_5_16.htm

Peace!

I disagree with your point. It's not referrin' to Israel. The reason is that when the term my servant is mentioned, the person referrin' is also mentioned in the same verse.

However, in the case mentioned (Isaiah 42) the servant is mentioned as Israel two verses earlier. Why should I think that it would have changed that quickly, when another name is not mentioned?

Because it contradicts the followin' verse related to the prophecy:
He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

I do not understand how that contradicts it. Could you explain?

They will receive a revelation 'cause they promised one (refer to the above passages).

Which verse says that the will recieve a revelation?

About the Shir HaShirim again - I think you can see that the translation of machmadim can be seen as either lovely or mohammed, and that by reading by the verse alone a clear conclusion can't be reached. In cases like this, reading the context usually helps. In this instance, the context (both before and after) is talking about something completely different. Why would one verse in this be so utterly different than the context of the verse?

One last question - does the Qu'ran ever quote this passage as a prophecy of Muhammed?

P.S.

Although we have extremely different views here, it's very nice to see that everyone is keeping their cool. Thanks guys

I think that the context must regarded very carefully, because later in Chapter 42 it reads............

19. Who is blind but My servant, and deaf as My messenger whom I will send? He who was blind is as the one who received his payment, and he who was blind is as the servant of the Lord.

mule

Sorry for the belated replies. I was workin' on my assignments!

However, in the case mentioned (Isaiah 42) the servant is mentioned as Israel two verses earlier. Why should I think that it would have changed that quickly, when another name is not mentioned?

My friend, Isaiah 42 prophecy is in no way referin' to Israel 'cause Israel was not bestowed with the universal leadership and Divine guidance to govern the affairs of the world. Israel was not sent to the Gentiles. Furthermore, the promised one is not a Jew since the reference of "Gentiles" means that he would be from the seed of Kedar (son of Ishmael -- peace be upon him) (refer to 42:11)

I do not understand how that contradicts it. Could you explain?

Accordin' to the Christian history of Prophet Isa son of Maryam (Peace be upon him), when he was arrested, he was humiliated on the streets before his crucifixion.

About the Shir HaShirim again - I think you can see that the translation of machmadim can be seen as either lovely or mohammed, and that by reading by the verse alone a clear conclusion can't be reached. In cases like this, reading the context usually helps. In this instance, the context (both before and after) is talking about something completely different. Why would one verse in this be so utterly different than the context of the verse?

The correct translation composed by a brother (refer to article) is:

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is MUHAMMAD. This is my (paternal) UNCLE, and this is my COMRADE, O daughters of Jerusalem." [Correct translation of Shir Hashirim (Song of Songs) 5:16]

Prophet Ishmael (peace be upon him) was the paternal uncle of the Nation of Israel.

The Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) conveyed the same Message as the past prophets. In other words, he would have been the Prophets' comrades (Ra'yaa).

A small excerpt:
Haggai 2:7 states "And I will shake all nations, AND THE DESIRE OF ALL NATIONS SHALL COME: and I will fill this house with glory saith the Lord of hosts."

In the Hebrew text it says "CHMD" pronounceable as "ACHMAD" (which is "AHMAD" in Arabic) in the place of "desire of all nations". Thus, the translation would be, "And I will shake all nations, AND AHMAD SHALL COME: and I will fill this house with glory saith the Lord of hosts."

Immediately after that, Haggai 2:9 says "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than the former: and in this place will I give PEACE, saith the Lord of hosts."

So which latter house? Since the last temple was destroyed by the Romans there has been no Jewish temple rebuilt there. There only stands the Dome of the Rock and Masjid al-Aqsa which is certainly a place of "Peace" or Islam.

"...and never have I seen anyone more handsome than Allah's Apostle (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." [Saheeh Muslim, 30:5770]

One last question - does the Qu'ran ever quote this passage as a prophecy of Muhammed?

No it doesn't. In fact, the Qur'an doesn't quote any (passages) regardin' the Tampered Scriptures. All what was mentioned in the [original] Torah and the [origina] Injeel is mentioned in the Glorious Qur'an.

Peace!

The house of my glory' referred to in Isaiah 60 is the Kaba’h in Makkah not the so-called “Church of Jesus Christ.

Greetings Kadafi. I really need to respond to this statement. The second part of it is totally correct. In the Old Testament, the 'house of my glory, always refers to the Temple on Mount Zion. I will only cite two passages in support -

1Ch 22:1 Then David said, This is the house of the LORD God, and this is the altar of the burnt offering for Israel.
1Ch 22:2 And David commanded to gather together the strangers that were in the land of Israel; and he set masons to hew wrought stones to build the house of God.
1Ch 22:3 And David prepared iron in abundance for the nails for the doors of the gates, and for the joinings; and brass in abundance without weight;
1Ch 22:4 Also cedar trees in abundance: for the Zidonians and they of Tyre brought much cedar wood to David.
1Ch 22:5 And David said, Solomon my son is young and tender, and the house that is to be built for the LORD must be exceeding magnifical, of fame and of glory throughout all countries: I will therefore now make preparation for it. So David prepared abundantly before his death.

Ezr 6:5 And also let the golden and silver vessels of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took forth out of the temple which is at Jerusalem, and brought unto Babylon, be restored, and brought again unto the temple which is at Jerusalem, every one to his place, and place them in the house of God.......
Ezr 6:11 Also I have made a decree, that whosoever shall alter this word, let timber be pulled down from his house, and being set up, let him be hanged thereon; and let his house be made a dunghill for this.
Ezr 6:12 And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed.

Originally Posted by kadafi

My friend, Isaiah 42 prophecy is in no way referin' to Israel 'cause Israel was not bestowed with the universal leadership and Divine guidance to govern the affairs of the world. Israel was not sent to the Gentiles.

You might want to be more careful, because Israel was bestowed with universal leadership in the fact that they are supposed to be a "Light unto the nations"! Israel WAS ESSENCIALLY sent to the gentiles, to set an example of righteousness!
"I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I made you for a people's covenant, for a light to nations." Isaiah 42:6
As it is written back in Genesis 18:
" 20. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.
21. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year.""

Greetings Kadafi. I really need to respond to this statement. The second part of it is totally correct. In the Old Testament, the 'house of my glory, always refers to the Temple on Mount Zion. I will only cite two passages in support -

Peace!

Let's examine Isaiah chapter 60:

060:001 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 060:002 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 060:003 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 060:004 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 060:005 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. 060:006 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD. 060:007 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. 060:008 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? 060:009 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. 060:010 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. 060:011 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. 060:012 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. 060:013 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. 060:014 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. 060:015 Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. 060:016 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. 060:017 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. 060:018 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. 060:019 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. 060:020 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. 060:021 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. 060:022 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

Here, the House of Glory is mentioned which is the exact literal translation of the term Baitul Haraam which is used in the Qur'an for the Ka'bah.

In Revelations 3:12-13 we read “003:012 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.” 003:013 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The New Jerusalem is Ka’abah! The new name of Allaah that was not known to the people of Arabia was “Rahman” which shot to prominence by means of Islaam only. Descending of New Jerusalem from Heaven means that Divine Order to make the Ka’abah, the new Qibla. Glorious Qur’aan also point to it in the following words:

Qur’aan 2:144! Verily! We have seen the turning of your (Muhammad's (SAW) face towards the heaven. Surely, We shall turn you to a Qiblah (prayer direction) that shall please you, so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid- al-Harâm (at Makkah). And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction. Certainly, the people who were given the Scriptures (i.e. Jews and the Christians) know well that, that (your turning towards the direction of the Ka'bah at Makkah in prayers) is the truth from their Lord. And Allâh is not unaware of what they do.

In Psalms chapter 84 we read:

084:004 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah. 084:005 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them. 084:006 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.


Gist

1.The verse 4 says that there is one house of Allaah in which people are auspicious who are always busy in reciting the name of Allaah and His praise.

2.The verse 5 describes the source of strength and respect, without any effect of worldly matters on these people.

3.The name of the valley is Baca (Makkah) the inhabitants have constructed a well (pointing to the well or fountain of ZamZam).

4.The people who are mentioned dwelling in the House of Allaah are Ismaeel (A.S.) [Ishmael] and the Ishmaelites.

Glorious Qur’aan, (3:96) says!

Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and guidance for Al-'Alamîn (the mankind and jinns).

I'd also like to point out some interestin' passages.

Therefore thy gates shall be open continually

The gates of the Ka'bah is open continiously nights and day and never closed for prayers.

because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee."

Within DECADES, Islam inhabitated 1/3 of the known world.

Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001

You might want to be more careful, because Israel was bestowed with universal leadership in the fact that they are supposed to be a "Light unto the nations"! Israel WAS ESSENCIALLY sent to the gentiles, to set an example of righteousness!
"I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I made you for a people's covenant, for a light to nations." Isaiah 42:6
As it is written back in Genesis 18:
" 20. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.
21.But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year.""

Peace,

Despite the fact that you quoted the passages that I primary pointed were referrin' to the prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him); I'll still address it.

Firstly, that passage:
"I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I made you for a people's covenant, for a light to nations (Gentiles)."

is not referrin' to Israel 'cause accordin' to Isaiah 42:18; Israel is a blinded servant:

"Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?
Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not."

Now, how on earth can a blinded servant who doesn't understand give light?

If he can't understand, how can he lead others to the path of light. Furthermore, the scripture also states that knowledge was taken away from the Children of Israel and they were wanderin' in spiritual darkness.

Isaiah 6:9-10 "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

Isaiah 29:13-14 "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid."

So now it's clear-cut that Israel is the blinded servant and the other servant who is bein' prophecised is Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The qualities mentioned in those passages refer to him only.

Let's examine the same passage again but this time, discuss how it applies to the Prophet.

“and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles”

O mankind! Verily, there has come to you the Messenger (Muhammad) with the truth from your Lord. So believe in him, it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, then certainly to Allâh belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. And Allâh is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise (An-Nisaa:170)

O mankind! Verily, there has come to you a convincing proof (Prophet Muhammad( from your Lord; and We sent down to you a manifest light (this Qur’ân).(An-Nisaa:174)

They intend to put out the Light of Allâh (i.e. the Religion of Islâm, this Qur’ân, and the Prophet Muhammad) with their mouths. But Allâh will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers hate (it). (As-Saff:8)