The New Jerusalem is Ka’abah!

Interesting, but the Ka'abah doesn't fit the detailed description of the New Jerusalem which fills most of chapter twenty one and some of twenty two of Revelation -

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

The city is in a shape of a cube, about 1,400 miles wide, long and high, largely made up of something like transparent gold. There is nothing like it on Earth today. For a complete run-down on what it will be like - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jerusalm.htm

Originally Posted by kadafi

They intend to put out the Light of Allâh (i.e. the Religion of Islâm, this Qur’ân, and the Prophet Muhammad) with their mouths. But Allâh will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers hate (it). (As-Saff:8)

Interesting how this passage is clearly mistaken. It was long established that the covenant that HaShem gave to Moses, was not only with Israel forever, but unbreakable and perfect!
Isaiah 2:2 It will happen in the end of days: The Mountain of the Temple of HASHEM will be firmly established as the head of the mountains, and it will be exalted above the hills, and all the nations will stream to it. [3] Many peoples will go and say: ‘Come, let us go up to the Mountain of HASHEM, to the Temple of the G-d of Jacob, and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths.’ For from Zion will the Torah come forth, and the word of HASHEM from Jerusalem.

Devarim 6 6.And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart. 7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes. 9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

Psalm 119:44. And I shall keep Your Torah constantly, forever and ever.

In fact, your own Quran even declares that the Jewish people ARE the guiding light of the nations:

[4:32] And We have chosen them (the Children of Israel) above the 'Alamîn (mankind, and jinns) and our choice was based on a deep knowledge.

[32.23] And certainly We gave the Book to Moses, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

[32.24] And We made of them Guiding Lights and leaders to guide by Our command as they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001

In fact, your own Quran even declares that the Jewish people ARE the guiding light of the nations:

Not quite my friend! It says that they WERE, before they betrayed their covenant with God and disbelieved in His promised messenger.

[4:32] And We have chosen them (the Children of Israel) above the 'Alamîn (mankind, and jinns) and our choice was based on a deep knowledge.

4:32 And in no wise covet those things in which Allah Hath bestowed His gifts More freely on some of you than on others: To men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah hath full knowledge of all things.

[32.23] And certainly We gave the Book to Moses, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

[32.24] And We made of them Guiding Lights and leaders to guide by Our command as they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

Another altered verse?


32:23 We did indeed AFORETIME give the Book to Moses: be not then in doubt of its reaching (thee): and We made it a guide to the Children of Israel.

32:24 And We appointed, from among them, leaders, giving guidance under Our command, SO LONG AS they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.

So the Children of Israel were favoured ONLY while they obeyed Him, just like any other nation. God's favour does not rest on a particular group or race, but rather with those who are pious.

Devarim 7:11-13
Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.

IF you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, THEN the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers.

He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land-your grain, new wine and oil-the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you


God tell us in Devarim that His love is conditional. He only favours people as long as they keep their covenant with Him. It is not a permanent favour. Only righteousness brings people in God's favour, not ethnicity.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Devarim 7:11-13
Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.

IF you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, THEN the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers.

He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land-your grain, new wine and oil-the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you


God tell us in Devarim that His love is conditional. He only favours people as long as they keep their covenant with Him. It is not a permanent favour. Only righteousness brings people in God's favour, not ethnicity.

The blessings of the Covenant are conditional upon obedience. However, these commands are required forever upon Jews as inidicated in many other verses. Those Jews who do follow the Torah merit the blessings, while those who do not merit the curses.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

God tell us in Devarim that His love is conditional. He only favours people as long as they keep their covenant with Him. It is not a permanent favour. Only righteousness brings people in God's favour, not ethnicity.

I have told you before, HaShem only favours those who are GOOD. We just have a different way of aquiring favour that is permanent and unchangable, and when we are good inspires others to be good. That is also permanent and unchangable.

To expand on what I said earlier....

Jeremiah 31:34-35. So said the Lord, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name. If these laws depart from before Me, says the Lord, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time.

These laws are still in effect, as a casual visit to the beach shows ;)

Jeremiah 31:36 So said the Lord: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says the Lord.

No one yet has been able to measure the universe yet.

That being said, no Jew (one who does not follow the Mitzvot) inherits the blessings of the Torah unless he or she observes it.

Originally Posted by yoshiyahu

The blessings of the Covenant are conditional upon obedience. However, these commands are required forever upon Jews as inidicated in many other verses. Those Jews who do follow the Torah merit the blessings, while those who do not merit the curses.

Agreed. And I feel that is a universal policy, not specific to the Jews.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Agreed. And I feel that is a universal policy, not specific to the Jews.

There is a universal policy, but the Torah was handed specifically to the Jews, with the obligation to teach it to their children.

And the gentiles must follow their whims to find the truth? ???

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

And the gentiles must follow their whims to find the truth? ???

Come now Ansar, the only important truth is that there is one God (which some Gentiles will believe, and others will not. It is up to Jews and Muslims (and everyone else) to inspire that belief in others.

There once was a man who came to Rabbi Hillel and said, if you can teach me the entire torah while I stand on one foot, I will become a Jew, and Hillel said, "What is hateful to you, do not do to anyone else, that is the entire Torah, the rest is just commentary, now go study".

Surely, the Gentile nations do not require the Torah to learn that.

Yes, the basic truths I agree. But what about the laws of Noahide?

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Yes, the basic truths I agree. But what about the laws of Noahide?

What about them? They are simply basic laws that should be followed for a Gentile to truly be righteous.

I don't think you should have a problem with it, unless you think that idolatry and sexual deviancy and theft and others should be permitted to non-Jews?

Well, in a society that is largely atheistic, and has many immoral issues as well, what would you expect an individual to research to come to the truth?

None of the polytheistic books/religions for sure. So what book do they have to guide them? In a sense, don't they just have to rely on instict? And as we all know after dealing with these atheists in debate etc. this instinct can get very clouded at times.

Atheism is not a big culprit of immorality (other than the obvious sin of disbelief in HaShem). The real cause of immorality is Hedonism. The pagans of the past were hedonists, they did whatever felt good, not caring if it hurt anyone else. Who is a hedonist? Dictators, controlling rulers, abusive kings, people who always have to get their way...

What is basic instinct? We are human, and as was granted adam and eve after they ate of the forbidden fruit, we can tell the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. To not do that which is hateful to yourself, to others, IS our essencial instinct. We always know what we should do at our deepest levels. Whether a person chooses to follow such depends on which philosophy they adopt. Which philosophy they adopt depends on how they were raised by their parents. If they are brought up under the Noachide laws, or equivilent, they will have a firm grasp on that which is right, and will not succumb to hedonism. If they do not believe in a specific doctarine, the risk of hedonism grows, but that doesn't break down the last barrier. Only when they become selfish, self centered, or place themselves above everyone else, only THEN do we have that which is Hedonistic. Atheism, the implication that one cannot prove the existance of HaShem, doesn't lead to immorality until they adopt such principles.