I don't know what your question is here... but all Islamic sources pointed to one fact.. earth being elliptical/ spherical.. can be deduced from both the word (da'ha'ha) in the Quran.. and of course by the map of Al-Idrisi The globe he presented Roger the II was crushed in favor of the medieval belief that the earth was flat.. but all Muslims knew it wasn't, from the Quran itself.. or are you now fluent in Arabic? go look the word highlighted in red in an Arabic dictionary

وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا

Quran 79.30

Al Idrisi was around Abu Abd Allah Muhammad al-Idrisi (Arabic: أبو عبد الله محمد الإدريسي; b.1100-d.1165 or 1166)

so what are you trying to do.. erase the Quran and history by finding one guy who had a different opinion? Are you going to quit these juvenile games or what?

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

so what are you trying to do.. erase the Quran and history by finding one guy who had a different opinion? Are you going to quit these juvenile games or what?

Don't be absurd. Try actually reading the previous posts.

I clearly stated that the Qur'an says the world is spherical. I named Al-Suyuti (who, inconvenient as it may be, is a significant figure) merely to point out that the 'flat earth' idea was still around some considereable time later, and not only in Europe. I also implied that that was contrary to the vast majority of muslim opinion, and the article I linked to made that point quite specifically.

However, you are at it too.

.. was crushed in favor of the medieval belief that the earth was flat.. but all Muslims knew it wasn't, from the Quran itself..

Same old myth. The "medieval belief" was not that "the earth was flat". Some people thought it was. Most Arab intellectuals indeed knew it wasn't, but in all probability that knowledge could be traced right back to Eratosthenes. They knew it was spherical long before the Qur'an was revealed, although some of them afterwards no doubt obtained that knowledge from reading or listing to recitations of the Qur'an. But the fundamental point comes back to "could somebody in seventh century Arabia know the world was round not flat?". The simple answer is "yes". That was probably the prevailing opinion.

Quran never run against the modern sciense.

Really? The moon just splits in half then?

Everything was created in pairs?

There are quite a few examples of organisms which are exclusively
parthenogenetic. I might refer you to Graham Bell's "The Masterpiece
of Nature", a weighty tome which has all you could care to know about
the evolution of sexual reproduction.

Even though there are quite a few example of parthenogens, they tend
to be taxanomically isolated, suggesting that they are all of recent
origin (often due to hybridization between two disparate specied) and
are short-lived in evolutionary time.

There is one notable exception, however, which is the topic of study
in my lab. Bdelloid rotifers are an entire class of animals which,
as far as anyone can tell, has been reproducing entirely without any
form of genetic exchange for quite some time (perhaps more than 50
million years), with over 350 species identified.

If you're interested in more info about bdelloids and our work, I'd
refer to our lab web page, which includes a copy of our research
proposal which gives a fair amount of background material. You can
reach the page at
http://golgi.harvard.edu/meselson/.

[removed]

Originally Posted by Trumble

Don't be absurd. Try actually reading the previous posts.

I clearly stated that the Qur'an says the world is spherical. I named Al-Suyuti (who, inconvenient as it may be, is a significant figure) merely to point out that the 'flat earth' idea was still around some considereable time later, and not only in Europe. I also implied that that was contrary to the vast majority of muslim opinion, and the article I linked to made that point quite specifically.

However, you are at it too.



Same old myth. The "medieval belief" was not that "the earth was flat". Some people thought it was. Most Arab intellectuals indeed knew it wasn't, but in all probability that knowledge could be traced right back to Eratosthenes. They knew it was spherical long before the Qur'an was revealed, although some of them afterwards no doubt obtained that knowledge from reading or listing to recitations of the Qur'an. But the fundamental point comes back to "could somebody in seventh century Arabia know the world was round not flat?". The simple answer is "yes". That was probably the prevailing opinion.

I find most of your posts.. run along the same tracks... and tedium to trace them back.. but from the looks of your thesis ... a few Arabs from the old worked diligently hard at copying works from others, far and near and incorporating it into one beautiful long poem.. Again I am not sure for what purpose...

So long as your thoughts are satisfactory to your person.. then I don't think we can ask for more!

Peace!

Originally Posted by lavikor201

Really? The moon just splits in half then?

Everything was created in pairs?

[/B]

And you propose otherwise because you are an Astro-physicist? and your word should deem the Ariadaeus Rille an artifact?.. You always profess people are "clueless" when it comes to your Tanakh-- by the same token stop being such an expert quranic Texts.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

And you propose otherwise because you are an Astro-physicist? and your word should deem the Ariadaeus Rille an artifact?.. You always profess people are "clueless" when it comes to your Tanakh-- by the same token stop being such an expert quranic Texts.

I'm no expert in Quranic texts by any means. I would welcome you to correct any misinterpration on my part when quoting the Quran, or even reffering to it. I welcome critisism, since I am by no means a Quran expert.

Originally Posted by Trumble

Don't be absurd. Try actually reading the previous posts.

I clearly stated that the Qur'an says the world is spherical. I named Al-Suyuti (who, inconvenient as it may be, is a significant figure) merely to point out that the 'flat earth' idea was still around some considereable time later, and not only in Europe. I also implied that that was contrary to the vast majority of muslim opinion, and the article I linked to made that point quite specifically.

However, you are at it too.



Same old myth. The "medieval belief" was not that "the earth was flat". Some people thought it was. Most Arab intellectuals indeed knew it wasn't, but in all probability that knowledge could be traced right back to Eratosthenes. They knew it was spherical long before the Qur'an was revealed, although some of them afterwards no doubt obtained that knowledge from reading or listing to recitations of the Qur'an. But the fundamental point comes back to "could somebody in seventh century Arabia know the world was round not flat?". The simple answer is "yes". That was probably the prevailing opinion.

An interesting thing about Religious debate. It seems the biggest disagreements come from points that would be considered trivia if discussed in a non-Religious atmosphere.

But, the reality of life is, it is impossible to to prove a negative. It is not your responsibility to prove the Qur'an is flawed, it is our responsibility to prove it is true. Perhaps we take this task too seriously and some of the statements we show proof for are already known to the general population as being true. However, we are very much aware that every word, every line, every thought in the Qur'an is subject to scrutiny. We also know that there are things in the Qur'an that we do not have the means to show universally acceptable proof for, at this time. Therefore it is essential to point out every line of verifiable proof . Let the preponderance of evidence be the guide to demonstrate that the Qur'an is true.

I will agree that for some this is a long drawn out melodrama, and some what redundant and boring. But, because everything will be questioned, our job will not be complete until we can show to the strongest doubter that there is verification for every word.

The overall purpose of that statement was not to be a geography lesson, to point out to flat landers that the world is spherical. It is to show that there is verification that one statement is true.

This is what is demanded of the doubters, that we prove what is written. Even if it means taking it one word at a time.

Originally Posted by Trumble

???!!!

I was only replying to this from you;

Iam so sorry ..

Originally Posted by Trumble

Did you want an answer or not?! What did you expect me to say?

did you read my last reply in "The Qur'an Is The Word Of Allah .."
I have nothing to said except this ....... but don't think that I can't unswer you

Originally Posted by Trumble

Yes, I did watch the vid.

I hope you appreciate it , what's your opinion about it?

take care.

Originally Posted by lavikor201

Really? The moon just splits in half then?

Everything was created in pairs?

DUALITY IN CREATION

Glory be to Him Who created all the pairs: from what the earth produces and from themselves and from things unknown to them. (Qur'an, 36:36)

While "male and female" is equivalent to the concept of "pair," "things unknown to them," as expressed in the Qur'an, bears a broader meaning. Indeed, we encounter one of the meanings pointed to in the verse in the present day. The British physicist Paul Dirac, who discovered that matter was created in pairs, won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1933. This finding, known as "parity," revealed the duality known as matter and anti-matter. Anti-matter bears the opposite characteristics to matter. For instance, contrary to matter, anti-matter electrons are positive and protons negative. This fact is expressed in a scientific source as follows:

... every particle has its antiparticle of opposite charge… [T]he uncertainty relation tells us that pair creation and pair annihilation happen in the vacuum at all times, in all places.

Another example of duality in creation is plants. Botanists only discovered that there is a gender distinction in plants some 100 years ago.48 Yet, the fact that plants are created in pairs was revealed in the following verses of the Qur'an 1,400 years ago:

It is Allah Who created the heavens with no support-you can see them-and cast firmly embedded mountains on the earth so that it would not move under you, and scattered about in it creatures of every kind. And We send down water from the sky and make every generous plant grow in it, in pairs. (Qur'an, 31:10)

It is He Who made the earth a cradle for you and threaded pathways for you through it and sent down water from the sky by which We have brought forth diverse pairs of plants. (Qur'an, 20:53)

[IMG]http://www.miraclesof*************/images_miracles_of_the_quran/antimadde.jpg[/IMG]
There are antimatter equivalents of all the basic particles in the universe. Antimatters possess the same mass but carry opposite charges. For that reason, when matter and antimatter make contact they disappear by turning into energy.

by.harun yahya

what you read it about miracles is just a way to understand Quran, you have a choice to believe it or not ... So please don't Enter us in this empty discuss.

please read this verse " He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established, clear meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not clear, seeking discord, and searching for hidden meanings in it, but no one knows its interpretation except Allah.
And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. " (3:7)

that what Our Lord Order us to do and I have nothing to said except this:
"We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord"

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
"The Hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon was cleft asunder." (54:1)
and .. If you are really a Jew So, The sea just splits in half then?

this is a miracles .. are you understand

If you not .. then forget it

Greetings Trumble,

Originally Posted by Trumble

I know that Mohammed's political achievements alone identify him as a genius, and that while illiterate he certainly would have spoken to people from a wide variety of backgrounds. I know that that same knowledge would have resided in all centres of learning between Rome and India, and a great many people who generally resided or travelled elsewhere would have been exposed to it via others particularly when it may well have been 'common knowledge'.

It is only an assumption that the knowledge of the earth being spherical was so widespread at that time, when "the Early Middle Ages (ca. 3rd to 7th centuries) saw occasional arguments in favor of a flat Earth". Furthermore:

Around 150 AD, Claudius Ptolemy, a Greek geographer, mathematician, and astronomer, compiled an encyclopedia of the ancient world from the archives of a legendary library in Alexandria, Egypt. His eight-volume Geography included extensive maps of the known world, all based on a curved globe.

Unfortunately, learning and intellect went out of fashion in Europe between 400 and 1200 AD. The storehouses of Greek knowledge were lost to Western society with the advent of the gloomy period known as the Dark Ages. Sea monsters and Vikings ruled the seas, and ships that ventured too far from shore were sure to fall off the edge of a flat Earth. Maps made in that time were based on religious beliefs or superstitions, not on observations, calculations, or scientific inquiry. Rectangular maps of the Earth represented the "four corners of the Earth." Circular maps usually placed the birthplace of Christianity, the holy city of Jerusalem, at the center of the world.

http://www.gma.org/space1/nav_map.html

So although some people may have known the earth was spherical, it cannot be said for certain that all centres of learning would have had this same belief. We also know about the Prophet's (pbuh) homeland:

In that benighted era, darkness lay heavier and thicker in one land than in any other. The neighboring countries of Persia, Byzantium, and Egypt possessed a glimmer of civilization and a faint light of learning, but the Arabian peninsula, isolated and cut off by vast oceans of sand, was culturally and intellectually one of the world’s most backward areas. The Hijaz, birthplace of the Prophet, had not passed through even the limited development of neighboring regions, and had not experienced any social evolution or attained any intellectual development of note. Although their highly developed language could express the finest shades of meaning, a study of their literature’s remnants reveals the limited extent of their knowledge. All of this shows their low cultural and civilization standards, their deeply superstitious nature, their barbarous and ferocious customs, and their uncouth and degraded moral standards and conceptions.

http://www.islamanswers.net/crossroads/prophet.htm

The idea that Mohammed's Mecca was somehow isolated in some bubble from the rest of the world simply isn't credible. If anything, it's rather insulting to its inhabitants. It was a trading town, on the route from Southern Arabia and even India to the Byzantine (and previously Roman) empires, not to mention assorted other places.

Makkah was a religious center more than anything, and the caravans would go to Syria in the summer and Yemen in the winter. It is also important to note that Muhammad (pbuh) lived as a shepherd for much of his life, and prior to Prophethood he would spend much of his time away from society contemplating. It is therefore quite apparent that the more we examine the life and location of Muhammad (pbuh), the more baseless the allegations about him become.

In fact, these claims are not new; the Qur'an itself makes mention of them:

Those who disbelieve say: "This (the Qur'ân) is nothing but a lie that he (Muhammad ) has invented, and others have helped him at it, so that they have produced an unjust wrong (thing) and a lie."

And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon."

Say: "It (this Qur'ân) has been sent down by Him (Allâh) (the Real Lord of the heavens and earth) Who knows the secret of the heavens and the earth. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

[25:4-6]


The commentary of these verses mentions:

Because this idea is so foolish and is so patently false, everyone knows that it is not true. It is known through Mutawatir reports and is a common fact that Muhammad the Messenger of Allah never learned to read or write, either at the beginning or the end of his life. He grew up among them for approximately forty years, from the time he was born until the time when his mission began. They knew all about him, and about his honest and sound character and how he would never lie or do anything immoral or bad. They even used to call him Al-Amin (the Trustworthy One) from a young age, until his mission began, because they saw how truthful and honest he was. When Allah honored him with that which He honored him, they declared their enmity towards him and came up with all these accusations which any reasonable person would know he was innocent of. They were not sure what to accuse him of. Sometimes they said that he was a sorcerer, at other times they would say he was a poet, or crazy, or a liar.

Many inerrancies arise if one goes down the path that such information was taught to Muhammad (pbuh) by others. For instance, why would this information be mentioned in the context of drawing attention to Allaah's creation? Wouldn't he subscribe to the Greek philosophy or widespread beliefs at that time whilst delivering the information in a more scientific, in-depth fashion? The Qur'an would be more of a scientific journal if such was the case.

Looking at it in context, this is just one aspect out of many which attest to the truth of the Qur'an. The Qur'an includes many other scientific references that do not go against our scientific understanding today. If we consider the time period of superstition and ignorance as well as the person to whom the Qur'an was revealed, how is this possible?

Originally Posted by Trumble

Oddly enough, the heyday of the 'flat-earthers' was actually many centuries later in Europe. In the muslim world Imam Al-Suyuti (15th century) believed the world to be flat (which, as I happily agree the Qur'an says it is round, seems rather odd), contrasting with earlier muslim opinion.

The wikipedia article goes on to mention:

Medieval Muslim World

At some time in the 9th century, with scholars like Al-Battani, the Muslim World was leading in astronomical knowledge, and the sphericity of the Earth was consequently a well known fact. Around 830 CE, Caliph al-Ma'mun commissioned a group of astronomers to measure the distance from Tadmur (Palmyra) to al-Raqqah, in modern Syria. They found the cities to be separated by one degree of latitude and the distance between them to be 66 2/3 miles and thus calculated the Earth's circumference to be 24,000 miles.[38]

Ibn Taymiya (died 1328 CE), said: "Celestial bodies are round - as it is the statement of astronomers and mathematicians - it is [likewise] the statement of the scholars of the Muslims; as Abul-Hasan ibn al-Manaadi, Abu Muhammad Ibn Hazm, Abul-Faraj Ibn Al-Jawzi and others have quoted: that the Muslim scholars are in agreement (that all celestial bodies are round). Indeed Allah has said: And He (i.e., Allah) it is Who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon. They float, each in a Falak. Ibn Abbas says: A Falaka like that of a spinning wheel. The word 'Falak' (in the Arabic language) means "that which is round." [39]

Many Muslim scholars declared a mutual agreement (Ijma) that celestial bodies are round. Some of them are: Ibn Hazm (d. 1069), Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 1200), and Ibn Taymiya (d. 1328). The later belief of Muslim scholars, like Suyuti (d. 1505) that the earth is flat represents a deviation from this earlier opinion .[40]

The Muslim scholars who held to the round earth theory used it in an impeccably Islamic manner, to calculate the distance and direction from any given point on the earth and Mecca. This determined the Qibla, or Muslim direction of prayer. Muslim mathematicians developed spherical trigonometry which was used in these calculations.[41] Ibn Khaldun, in his famous Muqaddimah, clearly says the world is spherical.

There is also a verse in the Quran [79:30] which some modern English translations give as "He made the earth egg-shaped"[42] which suggests that the Earth was not believed to be flat. Most translations ("And after that He spread the earth") suggest that this verse can be interpreted to support the flat Earth theory.

lavikor,

Really? The moon just splits in half then?

Miracles are different to scientific facts, since miracles, by definition, go against ordinary laws of nature.

Peace.

While "male and female" is equivalent to the concept of "pair," "things unknown to them," as expressed in the Qur'an, bears a broader meaning. Indeed, we encounter one of the meanings pointed to in the verse in the present day. The British physicist Paul Dirac, who discovered that matter was created in pairs, won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1933. This finding, known as "parity," revealed the duality known as matter and anti-matter. Anti-matter bears the opposite characteristics to matter. For instance, contrary to matter, anti-matter electrons are positive and protons negative. This fact is expressed in a scientific source as follows:

... every particle has its antiparticle of opposite charge… [T]he uncertainty relation tells us that pair creation and pair annihilation happen in the vacuum at all times, in all places.

Did you not read my post? *Sigh*.

Miracles are different to scientific facts, since miracles, by definition, go against ordinary laws of nature.

Yes, I understand, I am just at a lost of words to why thousands of cultures did not write about this, nor attribute this action to their own gods. Such a thing like the moon splitting I would think create thousands of literrary works.

Yes, I understand, I am just at a lost of words to why thousands of cultures did not write about this, nor attribute this action to their own gods. Such a thing like the moon splitting I would think create thousands of literrary works.

I would love to rip the Torah by listing all it's scientific inaccuracies, but I will not steep that low.

PLEASE watch a documantary type on quran miracle at
http://www.thedeenshow.com/video.html

Originally Posted by lavikor201

Did you not read my post? *Sigh*.

So? there is NO opposition between you and me ..... Iam talking about subject and you talk about another.

"And of every thing We have created pairs: that ye may receive instruction"

does This verse talk about reproduction?

please read carefully .. and be honest with yourself when you read Quran.

and Greetings,

Posts about the splitting of the moon have been moved here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...it-moon-2.html