why do some atheist demand religious people to prove that god exists? religion isn't science - it's a different system. just because you can't see or measure something, does not mean that it doesn't exist! this is what "faith" is all about.
some religious people fall in the same category when they quote their holy books as proof.
religion, whatever you may think of it (and i don't like it) requires no proof!

Even in descrete math, something that cannot be proven, doesn't mean that it's false.

Originally Posted by vpb

Even in descrete math, something that cannot be proven, doesn't mean that it's false.

We assume it is false if there is no proof. It called OCCAM'S RAZOR.

Originally Posted by Philosopher

My way of life?? It is the burden of the believer to prove the positive. You claim God exists. Now prove it. If you cannot, we must assume God's non-existence. You have as much proof for your "Jesus" as the tooth fairy. It is because of secularists like myself Christianity is so watered down and their is separation between church and state.

This country was founded under Christianity. Separation of church and state was never the founding fathers intentions for this country. In fact, It was the first president of the US that said, "Don't claim American patriotism if you ever attempt to remove religion from our institutions." He was referring to Christianity; that means, anyone in this country that wars against Christianity is not a true American. The only way you can get forgiveness for your sin is through Jesus. Without him, you will die in your sins. It is not my job to prove this to anyone. Jesus didn't try to prove anything to any one. He just is, and without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Originally Posted by Keltoi

I almost sense an inkling of jealousy in many of the posts made by atheists on this forum. They do not believe in religion and think those that practice their faith are ignorant and foolish, yet they are members of a Muslim forum. The question in mind is why? It doesn't seem to revolve around interest in any particlular faith.

I think that is a very good question. And why butt in on a discussion of "Views on Atonement for Sin" when they don't believe in any of this. All their posts are really off-topic, challenging the very existence of things everyone else takes for granted or by faith. Seems to me they ought to start their own thread and see if they can get anyone to join it, but stay out of this one. They don't really want to learn or understand our faith; they just want to mock it and ridicule it.

We assume it is false if there is no proof. It called OCCAM'S RAZOR.

So you want to say that OCCAM's RAZOR's principle is more important and more used than discrete math's principles ?? I wonder how come we didn';t learn it in Uni. , you know what, these who come to this thread heard u, but don't tell this to someone else cuz u'll make them laugh

Originally Posted by Philosopher

We assume it is false if there is no proof. It called OCCAM'S RAZOR.

OOOPs you just flunked philosophy 101 Occam's Razor is the hypothesis that the least complex explanation is most likely the correct one.

Originally Posted by Woodrow

OOOPs you just flunked philosophy 101 Occam's Razor is the hypothesis that the least complex explanation is most likely the correct one.

Least complex = A Creator
Most complex = A chain of occurrences that the probabilities of them happening to the power of ten are so far past impossible it's wedikewus

Thanks Philosopher, anything else you would like to post to help people along towards the realization of a Creator I'm sure we would all like to see!!

Originally Posted by Philosopher

No, Jesus did not exist. Historians have standards upon which they can verify the existence of past figures. Jesus fails these standards.

I bet that in 50 years by these standards you will not have existed.

Originally Posted by Philosopher

Christianity has caused enough pain and suffering as it is.

No, people who are Christians have, people who believe they are Christians have, Christian organizations have, incorrect doctrines have, inept and erroneous interpretations have but true Christianity has eased more suffering and brought more comfort than you or I can fathom.
People cause the things you speak of because we are sinners in a fallen world. We are enslaved by fear, desire, ego and many other things. Those of us who believe stumble often (I'm on my face enough I usually stay there and pray).
Becoming a Christian isn't an arrival, it's the start of a journey, each step unknown. Only the destination is known. Early Christians were called followers of The Way.
So to get us back on topic, the atoning sacrifice of Jesus pays for my past my present and my future, no matter what the failings.

Originally Posted by alapiana1

This country was founded under Christianity. Separation of church and state was never the founding fathers intentions for this country. In fact, It was the first president of the US that said, "Don't claim American patriotism if you ever attempt to remove religion from our institutions." He was referring to Christianity; that means, anyone in this country that wars against Christianity is not a true American. The only way you can get forgiveness for your sin is through Jesus. Without him, you will die in your sins. It is not my job to prove this to anyone. Jesus didn't try to prove anything to any one. He just is, and without faith, it is impossible to please God.

All refuted here:

http://www.atheists.org/courthouse/charlotte.html

Here are what the presidents had to say about your lies:

“The greatest achievement ever made in the cause of human progress is the total and final separation of church and state. If we have nothing else to boast of, we could lay claim with justice that the first among the nations we of this country made it an article of organic law that the relations between man and his maker were a private concern, into which other men have no right to intrude. To measure the stride thus made for the Emancipation of the race, we have only to look back over the centuries that have gone before us, and recall the dreadful persecutions in the name of religion that have filled the world.”
(David Dudly Field (1805 - 1894) in describing ‘American Progress in Jurisprudence,’ as quoted in Anson Phelps Stokes, “Church And State In The United States,” Vol. 1., pg. 37)

“The United States have adventured upon a great and noble experiment, which is believed to have been hazarded in the absence of all previous precedent -- that of total separation of church and state. No religious establishment by law exists among us. The conscience is left free from all restraint and each is permitted to worship his maker after his own judgment... Such is the great experiment which we have tried; our system of free government would be imperfect without it.”
(Pres. John Tyler, 10th U.S. President and supporter of state-church separation).

“I believe that in America where the separation of church and state is absolute -- where no Catholic prelate would tell the president (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote -- where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference -- and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the president who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.”
(President John F. Kennedy)

“The twin doctrines of separation of church and state and liberty of individual conscience are the marrow of our democracy, if not indeed America's most magnificent contribution to the freeing of Western man.”
(Clinton Rossiter, American historian)

In addition, the New York Supreme Court, in a well known case (Miami Military Institute v. Leff 129 Misc. 481, 220 N.Y.S. 799, 810) said of the principle of religious freedom that “it, ‘has always been regarded by the American people as the very heart of its national life.’ This would be difficult to maintain in a democracy without constitutional separation of church and state.”
(Anson Phelps Stokes, "Church And State In The United States," Vol. 1, p. 34)

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

This is excellent too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6h2fKZ_p6Y

I'd rather be in the pits of hell with Gandhi than in heaven with a tyrannical, egotistical, sexist, homophobic, genocidal, and evil deity. Then again, Jesus is probably be a thing of the fairytales in the future.

The reason why American is such a great, secular country is this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y

Originally Posted by Phil12123

I think that is a very good question. And why butt in on a discussion of "Views on Atonement for Sin" when they don't believe in any of this. All their posts are really off-topic, challenging the very existence of things everyone else takes for granted or by faith. Seems to me they ought to start their own thread and see if they can get anyone to join it, but stay out of this one. They don't really want to learn or understand our faith; they just want to mock it and ridicule it.

Keloti says: "I almost sense an inkling of jealousy in many of the posts made by atheists on this forum. They do not believe in religion and think those that practice their faith are ignorant and foolish, yet they are members of a Muslim forum. The question in mind is why? It doesn't seem to revolve around interest in any particlular faith."

I think this atheist is outwardly fighting accountability but inwardly searching. He is a lost soul in need of being found. We should deal with him as such for evangelistic purposes. He may be jealous, but the atheists may not be the only ones. There are others that instead of submitting to God by accepting God’s forgiveness through Christ they go about seeking it through what a prophet tells them instead of seeking and hearing from God for themselves. They would rather make the mistake of someone else by establishing a righteous of their own that is not according to knowledge. They should a least make their own instead which wouldn’t be a mistake if they would only trust and obey Jesus. If they did that, they would have the direct channel to Allah they so desperately want! We have forgiveness for our sin and our names are written in the Lamb's book of life. We are heaven bound and there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God. To somebody who doesn't have it and doesn't want it on God's terms they will be more than jealous; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Originally Posted by evangel

I bet that in 50 years by these standards you will not have existed.

It not wise to bet when you're Christian. After all, priests prophecised over a hundred times on the end of the world. They were wrong 100% of the time

Fundies make me laugh

Fundies make me laugh

how about this one? http://www.islamicboard.com/769704-post396.html ("Views on Atonement for Sin.")
do you not find that hilarious?

Originally Posted by Philosopher

All refuted here:

http://www.atheists.org/courthouse/charlotte.html

Here are what the presidents had to say about your lies:

“The greatest achievement ever made in the cause of human progress is the total and final separation of church and state. If we have nothing else to boast of, we could lay claim with justice that the first among the nations we of this country made it an article of organic law that the relations between man and his maker were a private concern, into which other men have no right to intrude. To measure the stride thus made for the Emancipation of the race, we have only to look back over the centuries that have gone before us, and recall the dreadful persecutions in the name of religion that have filled the world.”
(David Dudly Field (1805 - 1894) in describing ‘American Progress in Jurisprudence,’ as quoted in Anson Phelps Stokes, “Church And State In The United States,” Vol. 1., pg. 37)

“The United States have adventured upon a great and noble experiment, which is believed to have been hazarded in the absence of all previous precedent -- that of total separation of church and state. No religious establishment by law exists among us. The conscience is left free from all restraint and each is permitted to worship his maker after his own judgment... Such is the great experiment which we have tried; our system of free government would be imperfect without it.”
(Pres. John Tyler, 10th U.S. President and supporter of state-church separation).

“I believe that in America where the separation of church and state is absolute -- where no Catholic prelate would tell the president (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote -- where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference -- and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the president who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.”
(President John F. Kennedy)

“The twin doctrines of separation of church and state and liberty of individual conscience are the marrow of our democracy, if not indeed America's most magnificent contribution to the freeing of Western man.”
(Clinton Rossiter, American historian)

In addition, the New York Supreme Court, in a well known case (Miami Military Institute v. Leff 129 Misc. 481, 220 N.Y.S. 799, 810) said of the principle of religious freedom that “it, ‘has always been regarded by the American people as the very heart of its national life.’ This would be difficult to maintain in a democracy without constitutional separation of church and state.”
(Anson Phelps Stokes, "Church And State In The United States," Vol. 1, p. 34)

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

This is excellent too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6h2fKZ_p6Y

I'd rather be in the pits of hell with Gandhi than in heaven with a tyrannical, egotistical, sexist, homophobic, genocidal, and evil deity. Then again, Jesus is probably be a thing of the fairytales in the future.

The reason why American is such a great, secular country is this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y

Why don't you open a new thread on Separation of Church and State. I'll meet you there. You need to dig a little deeper. Separation of Church and state was never a part of the constitution. It is a distortion of what the founders wanted. The 1st adm was designed to keep the state out of the church ands not God out of the state. Does the tem "In God we trust" sound familiar to you?

Originally Posted by vpb

Even in descrete math, something that cannot be proven, doesn't mean that it's false.

Than why do Muslims ask Christians to prove that Jesus is God?