Salam.

Hitler was, as we all are, a sinner, and in his case we all like to emphasize that he was a really BIG sinner, but he certainly was NOT a Christian. Not sure who you mean by "the serb." If anyone dies without Christ, they go to hell. Period. If they die in Christ, they are in heaven. Period.

if you mean Hitler is not christian by his doing i will agree, if he christian by faith we'll never know since we're not God or psycic either...but i've read that he also attending Church before he gain power...i also see some picture
Hitler with priest...but yeah i'm assuming.

i meant serbian actually--you know Bosnia Herzegovina conflict in the 90' right? are they not Christian too?

it seems if Hitler or any Serbian troops died during that war, they are going to be save anyway. as you said 'Period'

Am i wrong if i put it like this?

Jesus sacrificed Himself to wash away all human sin and at the same time provide chance of redemption in case human sinned again.

If this atonement for sin never occured human will drowning in the original sin and they own personal sin without any chance of redemption, if they repented anyway it's also will never enough.

i meant serbian actually--you know Bosnia Herzegovina conflict in the 90' right? are they not Christian too?

Yes they are. And they say they are, and they fight for that. Now wether they follow christianity properly or not I don't know.

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan

if you mean Hitler is not christian by his doing i will agree, if he christian by faith we'll never know since we're not God or psycic either...but i've read that he also attending Church before he gain power...i also see some picture Hitler with priest...but yeah i'm assuming.

i meant serbian actually--you know Bosnia Herzegovina conflict in the 90' right? are they not Christian too?

it seems if Hitler or any Serbian troops died during that war, they are going to be save anyway. as you said 'Period'

Attending a church and being in a picture with a priest does not make Hitler a Christian. Nor does it make a Serb a Christian just because he/they claim to be Christians and "fight" for it. Let me quote myself and you will see what I mean and how you become a Christian:

Originally Posted by Phil12123

When a person repents of his sins, that is, comes to the point where he sees himself as a guilty sinner before a holy God, and he is willing to turn from his sins, and in that repentant state puts his faith and trust in Jesus Christ, that He died for his sins and rose again, and thereby makes Him his Lord and Savior, he receives forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift. At that point, the Holy Spirit comes into that person's life to empower him to live a life pleasing to God. His soul is redeemed, saved, born-again, ready for heaven.

Do you really think Hitler or the Serbs did any of that? I doubt it, but like you said, We're not God or psychic. However, "by their fruits you shall know them," and Hitler did not have very good fruit, did he? So, based on my assumption that they probably were NOT Christians, and assuming that's true, they would be in hell today. Period.

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan

Am i wrong if i put it like this?

Jesus sacrificed Himself to wash away all human sin and at the same time provide chance of redemption in case human sinned again.

Jesus died for our sins, ALL of them---past, present, and future. It is not just to provide a "chance of redemption" for later sins. ALL our sins are paid for IN FULL. So, the sins I commit next year were also paid for at Calvary. Jesus does not have to die again to cover those sins too. His ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice pays for them ALL. When a Christian sins, he has the promise of 1 John 1:9, that if he confesses his sins, God is faithful and just to forgive his sins and to cleanse him of all unrighteousness. Plus, he has an Advocate before the Father, making intercession for all believers as their faithful High Priest (1 John 2:1; Hebrews 4:14-16; 7:23-28; 8:1).

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan

If this atonement for sin never occured human will drowning in the original sin and they own personal sin without any chance of redemption, if they repented anyway it's also will never enough.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Could you please restate that?

Salam.

Attending a church and being in a picture with a priest does not make Hitler a Christian. Nor does it make a Serb a Christian just because he/they claim to be Christians and "fight" for it

i hope you don't get too emotional by this, as i stated earlier i'm assuming,
well, at least you knew how is it feel when people generalizing your religion by few bad apple.

i ask question because i want to know, i don't want anything else.

Do you really think Hitler or the Serbs did any of that? I doubt it, but like you said, We're not God or psychic. However, "by their fruits you shall know them," and Hitler did not have very good fruit, did he? So, based on my assumption that they probably were NOT Christians, and assuming that's true, they would be in hell today. Period.

i need an answer assuming they're christian.
is it like what you said?, they'll be in heaven, period!

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Could you please restate that?

sorry, for the inconvenient lol

If God never offered atonement for sin, human will overwhelm in the original sin and they own personal sin, if human merely repent(like muslim), it's also will never enough to redempt it.

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan

i hope you don't get too emotional by this, as i stated earlier i'm assuming, well, at least you knew how is it feel when people generalizing your religion by few bad apple.

Yes, people shouldn't generalize a religion by a few bad apples. There is a difference, though. You might have a point regarding the Serbs---I don't know enough about them to say. But in the case of Hitler, I cannot imagine anyone mistaking HIM for a Christian. Jesus was brought up Jewish and He was sent to the Jews as their Messiah. His first disciples were all Jewish. So how does a follower of the Jew's Messiah end up murdering 6 million Jews? That does not compute. If someone generalizes Christianity based on Hitler, they're insane.

On the other hand, many non-Muslims see ALL of the 911 terrorists as Muslims following their holy book, which has plenty of justification in their minds with the idea of slaying the infidels, etc. And undoubtely the terrorists and encouragers of suicide bombing view you as a backslider or worse in not joining their jihads. So a lot of non-Muslims would actually see the Jew-hating Hitler as more closely aligned with Jew-hating Palestinian Muslims, etc. than with Christians. In fact, it seems like some Jew-hating Muslim extremist has advocated "finishing the job Hitler left unfinished." I can't remember who I heard that said that.

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan

i need an answer assuming they're christian.
is it like what you said?, they'll be in heaven, period!

As I said, to assume they are Christian does not compute. If you want to give me more information, like, they repented and believed the Gospel on their death beds before they died, then they are in Heaven. Period. If not, they are in hell. Period.

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan

If God never offered atonement for sin, human will overwhelm in the original sin and they own personal sin, if human merely repent(like muslim), it's also will never enough to redempt it.

Let me see if I understand your question. Are you asking this: If God never offered atonement for sin, and humans were overwhelmed in original sin and their own personal sins...if they merely repent (like Muslims say to), is that also never enough to redeem them?

Correct, merely repenting is not enough to redeem them and keep them out of hell. They have to pay for their own personal sins if there is no atonement offered by God. If God never offered atonement for sin, there is only that one outcome: everyone is doomed to pay for their own sins. On the other hand, with the atonement God offers, there are the two alternatives: 1) You pay for your sins, or 2) you believe Jesus paid for them and then you get into heaven free. Payment already made. You don't have to pay for them. But if you reject that payment, you have to make your own payment.

Repentance is merely a change of mind, it is not payment for the wrong you are repenting of. When a person repents, he sees himself as a guilty sinner before a holy God and has a godly sorrow for his sins. Before that repentance, his sin was not a concern to him; he did not see his sin as God sees it---a wicked offense. He sees it as no big deal. His repentance, or change of mind, makes him then think, "uh oh, I have offended a holy God and I'm in big trouble. I need to deal with that sin." He wants to stop it and turn away from it. But in his own power he cannot do that. That is why I say a repentant sinner is one who wants to turn from his sin. So he turns to God for the power to do that.

Salam.

Yes, people shouldn't generalize a religion by a few bad apples. There is a difference, though. You might have a point regarding the Serbs---I don't know enough about them to say. But in the case of Hitler, I cannot imagine anyone mistaking HIM for a Christian. Jesus was brought up Jewish and He was sent to the Jews as their Messiah. His first disciples were all Jewish. So how does a follower of the Jew's Messiah end up murdering 6 million Jews? That does not compute. If someone generalizes Christianity based on Hitler, they're insane.

yeah i'm insane. thanx.

On the other hand, many non-Muslims see ALL of the 911 terrorists as Muslims following their holy book, which has plenty of justification in their minds with the idea of slaying the infidels, etc

yeah! every single Muslim that involved in war in this world throughout century is just simply for fun. we're evil by nature and don't deserve to share this world with other sinless and innocent peoples.

And undoubtely the terrorists and encouragers of suicide bombing view you as a backslider or worse in not joining their jihads. So a lot of non-Muslims would actually see the Jew-hating Hitler as more closely aligned with Jew-hating Palestinian Muslims, etc. than with Christians. In fact, it seems like some Jew-hating Muslim extremist has advocated "finishing the job Hitler left unfinished." I can't remember who I heard that said that.

now we're Hitler lovers too.

As I said, to assume they are Christian does not compute. If you want to give me more information, like, they repented and believed the Gospel on their death beds before they died, then they are in Heaven. Period. If not, they are in hell. Period.

my original question is what if sinful christian died eventhough deep in they heart They have no doubt Jesus is their only savior.

But i must admit this question is based from my understanding of human nature, i thought no human are obsolute righteous or evil. most will have mix of it...you dont have to answer this if you dont want to.

it seems like ur saying if they're Christian they will never be evildoer.
if they're evildoer therefore they're not Christian, even we don't know what's in their Hearts.

Correct, merely repenting is not enough to redeem them and keep them out of hell. They have to pay for their own personal sins if there is no atonement offered by God. If God never offered atonement for sin, there is only that one outcome: everyone is doomed to pay for their own sins. On the other hand, with the atonement God offers, there are the two alternatives: 1) You pay for your sins, or 2) you believe Jesus paid for them and then you get into heaven free. Payment already made. You don't have to pay for them. But if you reject that payment, you have to make your own payment.

well, i understand now.

Repentance is merely a change of mind, it is not payment for the wrong you are repenting of. When a person repents, he sees himself as a guilty sinner before a holy God and has a godly sorrow for his sins. Before that repentance, his sin was not a concern to him; he did not see his sin as God sees it---a wicked offense. He sees it as no big deal. His repentance, or change of mind, makes him then think, "uh oh, I have offended a holy God and I'm in big trouble. I need to deal with that sin." He wants to stop it and turn away from it. But in his own power he cannot do that. That is why I say a repentant sinner is one who wants to turn from his sin. So he turns to God for the power to do that.

your View about Repentance clearly different with me.

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan

yeah i'm insane. thanx.

I wasn't saying YOU are insane. People in general.

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan

yeah! every single Muslim that involved in war in this world throughout century is just simply for fun. we're evil by nature and don't deserve to share this world with other sinless and innocent peoples.

Now that's what I call "generalization"!! And how you draw that generalization from what I said, I have no idea. But yes, you (and everyone else) are evil by nature, but there are no "sinless and innocent peoples."

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan

now we're Hitler lovers too.

You say, "we're" so does that mean YOU are a Jew-hating Palestinian Muslim? Why would you want to put yourself in that group? I didn't.

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan

my original question is what if sinful christian died even though deep in they heart They have no doubt Jesus is their only savior.

But i must admit this question is based from my understanding of human nature, i thought no human are obsolute righteous or evil. most will have mix of it...you dont have to answer this if you dont want to.

it seems like ur saying if they're Christian they will never be evildoer.
if they're evildoer therefore they're not Christian, even we don't know what's in their Hearts.

No, I never said Christians never do evil things, but when you pose your hypothetical with someone like Hitler, I have to dispute it. What I was trying to make sure of was, whether the evildoer did in fact, at some point, repent and believe the Gospel before he died. If so, he is in heaven, no matter what evil you want to assume. All that evil, every single sin, has been paid for by Jesus at Calvary. This does not give any Christian a license to sin without consequences, but those consequences do not include hell, but rather chastening or chastisement from the Lord as a father would discipline his wayward child. See Hebrews 12:5-11.

Salam.

yeah i get it, i apologize for going off topic

Originally Posted by Phil12123

Jesus was brought up Jewish and He was sent to the Jews as their Messiah. His first disciples were all Jewish. So how does a follower of the Jew's Messiah end up murdering 6 million Jews? That does not compute.

it doesn't compute, but nevertheless it has been the history of christianity. the church is deep in jewish blood.

If someone generalizes Christianity based on Hitler, they're insane.[/COLOR]

this i agree with.

Salam.

If God never offered atonement for sin, and humans were overwhelmed in original sin and their own personal sins...if they merely repent (like Muslims say to), is that also never enough to redeem them?

plz don't misquote me..what i meant like Muslim is like muslim do

back to the topic.

esus died for our sins, ALL of them---past, present, and future. It is not just to provide a "chance of redemption" for later sins. ALL our sins are paid for IN FULL. So, the sins I commit next year were also paid for at Calvary. Jesus does not have to die again to cover those sins too. His ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice pays for them ALL. When a Christian sins, he has the promise of 1 John 1:9, that if he confesses his sins, God is faithful and just to forgive his sins and to cleanse him of all unrighteousness. Plus, he has an Advocate before the Father, making intercession for all believers as their faithful High Priest (1 John 2:1; Hebrews 4:14-16; 7:23-28; 8:1).

okay.

Correct, merely repenting is not enough to redeem them and keep them out of hell. They have to pay for their own personal sins if there is no atonement offered by God. If God never offered atonement for sin, there is only that one outcome: everyone is doomed to pay for their own sins. On the other hand, with the atonement God offers, there are the two alternatives: 1) You pay for your sins, or 2) you believe Jesus paid for them and then you get into heaven free. Payment already made. You don't have to pay for them. But if you reject that payment, you have to make your own payment.

okay

This does not give any Christian a license to sin without consequences, but those consequences do not include hell, but rather chastening or chastisement from the Lord as a father would discipline his wayward child. See Hebrews 12:5-11.

What kind of punishment that is not include Hell?

Originally Posted by snakelegs

Originally Posted by Phil12123 View Post
Jesus was brought up Jewish and He was sent to the Jews as their Messiah. His first disciples were all Jewish. So how does a follower of the Jew's Messiah end up murdering 6 million Jews? That does not compute.

it doesn't compute, but nevertheless it has been the history of christianity. the church is deep in jewish blood.

Deep in Jewish blood? I don't understand that one. Please enlighten me. Are you referring to the Catholic Inquisition or the Catholic Crusades or what? Remember, Hitler was NOT part of the Christian church, so what are you talking about?

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan

Originally Posted by Phil12123

This does not give any Christian a license to sin without consequences, but those consequences do not include hell, but rather chastening or chastisement from the Lord as a father would discipline his wayward child. See Hebrews 12:5-11.

What kind of punishment that is not include Hell?

The kind that is chastening or chastisement from the Lord as a father would discipline his wayward child. Hebrews 12:5-14 says:

5. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6. For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.''
7. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
8. But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
9. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
10. For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.
11. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but grievous; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
12. Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees,
13. and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.
14. Pursue peace with all men, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:

Do you see the difference between God's chastening, or spanking, which is corrective, and hell which is purely punishment and payment for sins without any thought of correction that afterwards brings holiness? For the Christian, whose sins have been fully paid for at Calvary, he still needs correction for his day to day sins, but those sins, already paid for, do not take him to hell. God's corrective spankings are intended to produce holiness.

God's chastening, or corrective spankings, can take the form of sickness, or other such things in our lives that He uses to get our attention to something He sees we need to deal with and repent of---have a change of mind about, to see it as He sees it. That and the Holy Spirit convicting us of that sin, is all intended for our good, quite unlike the punishment of hell.

Salam.

i see...am i wrong if i state this.

faithful christian with good deeds will enter paradise.
faithful Christian but evildoer will receive punishment in this world but their place in heaven are guaranteed.
only unfaithful will be burn for eternity.

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan

i see...am i wrong if i state this.

faithful christian with good deeds will enter paradise.
faithful Christian but evildoer will receive punishment in this world but their place in heaven are guaranteed.
only unfaithful will be burn for eternity.

Yes, but I would add...

faithful Christian with NO good deeds will enter paradise.

Let me explain that one. Good deeds don't get anyone to paradise. They merely get the faithful Christian rewards in paradise.

Ephesians 2:8-10 says:

8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

It is by grace (God's undeserved love and kindness) that we are saved (delivered or rescued from hell) through faith (believing in and trusting in the atoning sacrifice of Christ and His resurrection), and it is not of US but of God, as a free gift (something we don't earn or do anything to get, just receive), so that no one can boast about it since they didn't deserve it and did nothing to get it except receive it by faith. Nevertheless, God, after saving us, wants us to serve Him in gratitude for what He has so richly blessed us with, including (and especially) that salvation.

Let me give you an example. On each side of Christ was crucified a thief, both of whom initially said some very unkind things to him. But one thief apparently repented, had a change of mind, and yelled at the other thief that they were getting what they deserved, but Jesus was sinless and didn't deserve what He was suffering. He then turned to Jesus and said an amazing thing, that could only be evidence of tremendous faith: "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Is that not amazing? They are all going to die, and this thief is talking about Jesus coming into a kingdom. He obviously repented and believed in Jesus. So what was Jesus' response to him? "Truly I say to you, TODAY you will be with me in paradise!"

Now, notice, the thief did not have any good deeds to help him get into Paradise. It was only repentance and faith in Jesus. That's all. But it got him in Paradise. Could he boast about it? Hey look everyone, I'm saved and going to Paradise! Not really, unless it was really a boast of God's grace toward him, because he certainly did not deserve Paradise.

That's the way Christians feel about God's "Amazing Grace" as the hymn is entitled---amazing that God would save a wretch like me. Sure, we can say, I'm saved and assured of heaven, but it's really not a boast of anything we deserve or have done anything to get. It is a free gift of God, purchased with Christ's blood, because He loved us so much. Hallelujah!!

Let me explain that one. Good deeds don't get anyone to paradise. They merely get the faithful Christian rewards in paradise.

So we can do anything we want, as long as we "believe in Jesus's crucification of washing away our sins" ????

but Jesus was sinless and didn't deserve what He was suffering.

how can you say "sinless" ??? is God tempted by evil?