Originally Posted by vpb

was it Jesus that visited him?

Actually, his story is similar to that of the apostle Paul. Saul was a zealot bent on destroying all Christians. When he was on his way to Damascus, he was knocked off his horse and there was a bright light that blinded him and a voice spoke to him saying "Saul, Saul why do you persecute me?" Saul asked, "Who are you?" The answer he got was, "I am Jesus whom you persecute." Zahid's conversion was like Paul's. He didn't see Jesus, but he spoke and the Muslim heard and obeyed the heavenly vision with a great price. It is painful to be ostracized by your family and friends imprisoned and tortured than rejected by Christians for a time. He had nothing but him and God with no one believing him and having to look behind his back in hiding for his life. But that is what happened to Jesus. He came unto his own, but his own received him not, but as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the children (sons) of God. Here is another recorded incident in 1992 in Pakistan. The judge looked at Sajjad Husain, who was the only witness against the Christian Gul Masih. No one could confirm that Gul had defamed Mohammad. The judge looked at Gul Masih the Christian and said, “I have no reason not to believe this witness against you.” He was sentenced to death by hanging. Christians prayed and encouraged him and wrote letters to the Pakistani Ambassadors saying we are aware of the unproven and unjust sentence of Gul Maish and two other Pakistani Christians. This law is being used as a weapon against Christians from jealous people who make up lies to destroy them. Twelve other Pakistani Christians have been accused by blasphemy laws. Five out of the twelve were acquitted only to later be found illegally murdered by Muslim extremists. Many are still being accused. After three years imprison, Gul was released in 1994 of Nov. by the Lahore High Court, but his life remains threatened. Islamic fundamentalists outraged by the court’s decision issued a fatwa in Sarghode. Wanted posters were put out and threats shouted over the loud speaker from the local mosques. He, too, fears in hiding for his life.

Actually, his story is similar to that of the apostle Paul. Saul was a zealot bent on destroying all Christians. When he was on his way to Damascus, he was knocked off his horse and there was a bright light that blinded him and a voice spoke to him saying "Saul, Saul why do you persecute me?" Saul asked, "Who are you?" The answer he got was, "I am Jesus whom you persecute." Zahid's conversion was like Paul's. He didn't see Jesus, but he spoke and the Muslim heard and obeyed the heavenly vision with a great price. It is painful to be ostracized by your family and friends imprisoned and tortured than rejected by Christians for a time. He had nothing but him and God with no one believing him and having to look behind his back in hiding for his life. But that is what happened to Jesus. He came unto his own, but his own received him not, but as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the children (sons) of God. Here is another recorded incident in 1992 in Pakistan. The judge looked at Sajjad Husain, who was the only witness against the Christian Gul Masih. No one could confirm that Gul had defamed Mohammad. The judge looked at Gul Masih the Christian and said, “I have no reason not to believe this witness against you.” He was sentenced to death by hanging. Christians prayed and encouraged him and wrote letters to the Pakistani Ambassadors saying we are aware of the unproven and unjust sentence of Gul Maish and two other Pakistani Christians. This law is being used as a weapon against Christians from jealous people who make up lies to destroy them. Twelve other Pakistani Christians have been accused by blasphemy laws. Five out of the twelve were acquitted only to later be found illegally murdered by Muslim extremists. Many are still being accused. After three years imprison, Gul was released in 1994 of Nov. by the Lahore High Court, but his life remains threatened. Islamic fundamentalists outraged by the court’s decision issued a fatwa in Sarghode. Wanted posters were put out and threats shouted over the loud speaker from the local mosques. He, too, fears in hiding for his life.

should I wait then, till the light appears to me? or does that happen only in Pakistan, if that is the case then do I have to go to live in Pakistan?

Originally Posted by vpb

should I wait then, till the light appears to me? or does that happen only in Pakistan, if that is the case then do I have to go to live in Pakistan?

I think you know the answer to that. Since you believe that Jesus is still alive, why don't you ask him to show you what part He wants to play in your life? You have nothing to lose by asking him that. You aren't even going against the Koran. I know if you ask him sincerely you will be presented with a choice. That choice determines what religion you will hate and which you will love

I think you know the answer to that. Since you believe that Jesus is still alive, why don't you ask him to show you what part He wants to play in your life? You have nothing to lose by asking him that. You aren't even going against the Koran. I know if you ask him sincerely you will be presented with a choice. That choice determines what religion you will hate and which you will love

do you think that I would ever exchange something with




????

Nothing in this world is worthy of that black banner there.

Originally Posted by vpb

do you think that I would ever exchange something with




????

Nothing in this world is worthy of that black banner there.

Yes, if you experience what Zahid or Paul did! What does the banner mean Allah is Great?

the shahadah

Yes, if you experience what Zahid or Paul did!

You have no clue how much worthy that banner is. a person who embraced that banner, would not drop it, as long as he has his mind in his head.

What does the banner mean Allah is Great?

It means:

La ilaha illallah Muhammed rasulallah
There is no diety of worship except Allah, and Muhammed is the Messenger of Allah.

Originally Posted by vpb

You have no clue how much worthy that banner is. a person who embraced that banner, would not drop it, as long as he has his mind in his head.


It means:

La ilaha illallah Muhammed rasulallah
There is no diety of worship except Allah, and Muhammed is the Messenger of Allah.

Thanks for sharing that. Let us get back on topic. I know that you are very strong in what you believe, but I do submit to you that the idea of Jesus being God's sacrificial gift for our atonement makes perfect sense spiritually. Just think about how the Jews would slay a lamb for their sins on a daily bases. God, therefore, set up his lamb so that one sacrifice could be made forever for the remission of sin. It is even prophesied in Isaiah 53 that God would raise up someone who would take away our sins and by his stripes we are healed. It goes along with Old Testament Scriptures and even Daniel the prophet said that when the anti Christ comes he is going to set up the abomination that makes it desolate. The anti Christ is coming (The devil in the flesh). He will be doing signs and wonders and getting the world to wonder after him. He will set up a daily sacrifice and then cause it to stop by setting up the abomination that makes all desolate. At first, the Jews may believe he is the messiah. There is coming a dark time for earth such as the world has never known nor shall it be ever again. Every thing in the Old Testament points to Jesus from the rock Moses hits to the holding up of the serpent in the wilderness. The children of Israel had to look at the serpent to be healed. That serpent represented Christ because he became sin for us so his righteousness could fall on us. Even as the blood was put on the door post for the passover that represents Christ’s blood. Without our souls being sprinkled by the blood of the lamb we are dead just as the first born were killed.

1. Abraham's sacrifice was not anything else but submission to Allah, so don't confuse that with Jesus.
2. Apart from submission, we sacrifice the qurban to help the poor, did people give Jesus's meat to other people?
3. sacrifice in Islam is about sacrificing animal not human. Jesus was a human.
4. You are defending your point by telling me from OD , NT. I don't accept them. I already have Qur'an to refer to.

but I do submit to you that the idea of Jesus being God's sacrificial gift for our atonement makes perfect sense spiritually.

People can believe some thing make sense, but actually they don't. personally I don't think it makes sense at all, bc first of all if doesn't make sense to me God to have a son, or God to appear in human flesh. God is High from doing such things.
second, it doesn't make sense for me to inherit the sins of Adam, same as you wouldn't go to jail bc someone else did a crime.
third, there is no purpose to live a life, if Jesus has already died for our sins.

Without our souls being sprinkled by the blood of the lamb we are dead just as the first born were killed.

22:37. It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah. it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.

so don't try to judge here with christian rules.

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Thanks for sharing that. Let us get back on topic. I know that you are very strong in what you believe, but I do submit to you that the idea of Jesus being God's sacrificial gift for our atonement makes perfect sense spiritually. Just think about how the Jews would slay a lamb for their sins on a daily bases. God, therefore, set up his lamb so that one sacrifice could be made forever for the remission of sin. It is even prophesied in Isaiah 53 that God would raise up someone who would take away our sins and by his stripes we are healed. It goes along with Old Testament Scriptures and even Daniel the prophet said that when the anti Christ comes he is going to set up the abomination that makes it desolate. The anti Christ is coming (The devil in the flesh). He will be doing signs and wonders and getting the world to wonder after him. He will set up a daily sacrifice and then cause it to stop by setting up the abomination that makes all desolate. At first, the Jews may believe he is the messiah. There is coming a dark time for earth such as the world has never known nor shall it be ever again. Every thing in the Old Testament points to Jesus from the rock Moses hits to the holding up of the serpent in the wilderness. The children of Israel had to look at the serpent to be healed. That serpent represented Christ because he became sin for us so his righteousness could fall on us. Even as the blood was put on the door post for the passover that represents Christ’s blood. Without our souls being sprinkled by the blood of the lamb we are dead just as the first born were killed.

Do you really understand what the Jewish view on animal sacrifices was/is? It had nothing to do with salvation or the washing away of sins.

Here is the Jewish view from a Jewish site:

Ah: here is the central issue of the debate. The view I subscribe to, and do most Conservative Jews (who have an opinion on this) is that the Torah, regardless whether or not you believe it was given by G-d, was given to a particular people, at a particular time. And at that time, they were surrounded by tribes of other people who vehemently believed in the necessity of sacrifice to cleanse one's soul (or whatever).
Therefore, even though atonement still required the person carrying the guilt to atone directly for their sins (if they stole, repay the loss, if they injured, make some kind of restitution, etc.) the Torah allowed for the symbolic atonement. This is what people expected then.



>> If the Jewish people never accepted the idea of vicarious atonement, why is it spelled out in detail in the Torah how to do animal sacrifices for means of atonement for sins (sin offering)as a requirement to do? Why does it say in Leviticus 17 that blood is the atonement for the soul?

So that accomplishing animal sacrifices would be so incredibly difficult, that people would readily accept prayer in its stead. Mind you, prayer doesn't accomplish vicarious atonement, either. Again, it is still the thing you do AFTER you have actively atoned.



>> Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Yes, excellent citation. And context helps make it much clearer...

In the paragraphs above (starting at Lev. 17:1) there is this whole discussion about NOT slaughtering animals out in the fields. Rather, "So that the Children of Israel will bring their feast-offerings that they have been slaughtering on the open field, and they shall bring them to Ha'shem to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting to the Kohen; and they shall slaughter them as peace-offerings... ...They shall no longer slaughter their offerings to the demons after whom they stray; this shall be an eternal decree to them for their generations."

Bit by bit here. First, notice the reason they must bring their offerings to the Tent of Meeting? Because these folks simply weren't used to being "The Children of Israel" yet. These folks were truly proto-proto-Jews. They were still offering up every animal they slaughtered to appease the "the demons" that is, they were still worshipping idols.

Source: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Conservat...-Sacrifice.htm


The Jews never did and still don't believe that animal sacrifices and blood could wash away sins. This blood concept is a later innovation by Christians. It was not a part of Judaism.

That is not an error Jesus(as) would have made because he was a devout Jew and as a devout Jew had submitted to Allah(swt) and was therefore Muslim. His words about blood washing away sins of the world would not have been his words as he would not have been taught the error that blood can wash away sins.

That is not an error Jesus(as) would have made because he was a devout Jew and as a devout Jew had submitted to Allah(swt) and was therefore Muslim. His words about blood washing away sins of the world would not have been his words as he would not have been taught the error that blood can wash away sins.

that's why Ibn Abbas comments on last two verses of Surah Al-Fatiha:
{ ٱهْدِنَا ٱلصِّرَاطَ ٱلْمُسْتَقِيمَ }(Guide us to the straight path) guide us to the established Religion that You are pleased with, i.e. Islam. It is also said that this means: make us firm in holding fast to it. It is also said that the straight path refers to Allah's Book, and guidance to this means guidance to that which it prescribes as lawful or unlawful and to the exposition of its content.

{ صِرَاطَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ ٱلْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِم وَلاَ ٱلضَّآلِّينَ }

(The path of those whom Thou hast favoured), the Religion of those whom You have blessed with the Religion and who are the followers of Moses, before the blessings of Allah deserted them, in that He shaded them with a white cloud and sent down on them honey and quails when they were in the wilderness. It is also said that (the path of those whom Thou hast favoured) refers to the prophets. (Not of those who earn Thine anger), not the religion of the Jews who earned Your anger, whom You forsook and whose hearts You did not protect until they became complaisant. (Nor of those who go astray), nor the religion of the Christians who erred from Islam. Amen: thus shall be its custodians; it is also said that Amen means let it be so. It is also said that it means: O our Lord! Do with us as we have requested You. And Allah knows best'





may Allah swt guide us all. Ameen.

Originally Posted by Woodrow

Do you really understand what the Jewish view on animal sacrifices was/is? It had nothing to do with salvation or the washing away of sins.

Here is the Jewish view from a Jewish site:



Source: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Conservat...-Sacrifice.htm


The Jews never did and still don't believe that animal sacrifices and blood could wash away sins. This blood concept is a later innovation by Christians. It was not a part of Judaism.

That is not an error Jesus(as) would have made because he was a devout Jew and as a devout Jew had submitted to Allah(swt) and was therefore Muslim. His words about blood washing away sins of the world would not have been his words as he would not have been taught the error that blood can wash away sins.

It even says it in the NT Bible that animals could never wash away sins. These things were just a shadow. Just like God asking Abraham to sacifice is son. These were all shadows of what was to come. God would never ask us to do something He wouldn't do Himself. For God so loved the world that He gave is only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave is only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16

I've memorized this verse by heart.

It even says it in the NT Bible that animals could never wash away sins. These things were just a shadow. Just like God asking Abraham to sacifice is son. These were all shadows of what was to come. God would never ask us to do something He wouldn't do Himself

don't try to twist things to make your ideas fit.

Originally Posted by vpb

I've memorized this verse by heart.



don't try to twist things to make your ideas fit.

Bro, I am not trying to twist anything. i just call it the way God shows me! There is a reasons Christians are persecuted so severely. They are shinning a light for all to see. The devil hates that. So he is working hard behind the stage of life to bring death with his deception.

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Bro, I am not trying to twist anything. i just call it the way God shows me! There is a reasons Christians are persecuted so severely. They are shinning a light for all to see. The devil hates that. So he is working hard behind the stage of life to bring death with his deception.

Perhaps that may be the reason Muslims have been and are persecuted? we are persecuted against daily in almost all things we do. Often by the words of well intentioned people, who can not see how strongly they persecute us. A shariah state can not even exist without non-believers swarming in with the agenda to "save" the people.

Our Noble Qur'an is treated with disrespect by the unknowing who misread it. the internet is filled with anti-Islam sentiments.

Christians and Jews are not the only ones who have faced persecution. However, for at least 1000 years no non-Christians have invaded Christian lands with the intent of driving Christians away from Christianity. But, today Christians not only invade Muslim countries with the intent of ending Islam they also have no limits in spewing their Evangelical fallacies against every Muslim they can find on the internet. There is a frequent barrage of people that come to this site with the soul intent of driving us away from following Allah(swt). Many of the posts and threads are so full of bitterness and hate that they are deleted before most members see them.

No Islamic site on the internet is free from evangelicals that will try their best to drive us away from Islam. If that is not bigotry and persecution, I don't know what it is.