Thread: "Views on Atonement for Sin."

Originally Posted by Woodrow

Perhaps that may be the reason Muslims have been and are persecuted? we are persecuted against daily in almost all things we do. Often by the words of well intentioned people, who can not see how strongly they persecute us. A shariah state can not even exist without non-believers swarming in with the agenda to "save" the people.

Our Noble Qur'an is treated with disrespect by the unknowing who misread it. the internet is filled with anti-Islam sentiments.

Christians and Jews are not the only ones who have faced persecution. However, for at least 1000 years no non-Christians have invaded Christian lands with the intent of driving Christians away from Christianity. But, today Christians not only invade Muslim countries with the intent of ending Islam they also have no limits in spewing their Evangelical fallacies against every Muslim they can find on the internet. There is a frequent barrage of people that come to this site with the soul intent of driving us away from following Allah(swt). Many of the posts and threads are so full of bitterness and hate that they are deleted before most members see them.

No Islamic site on the internet is free from evangelicals that will try their best to drive us away from Islam. If that is not bigotry and persecution, I don't know what it is.

Where are Christians persecuting Muslims today? If you are calling what us Christians are doing or just me on this forum persecution, then what do you call Muslims killing 300 laymen and a chopping a pastors hand? What about the pulling of finger nails out of a Pakistani Christian revert, and what do you call what was done to 17 year old Mary Khowry during the Lebanese civil war 1975 -1992? Muslim fanatics forced Mary and family to their knees at gun point saying, "If you don't become Muslims, you will be shot." After all were shot, she was the only one who remained alive with arms spread out in the shape of a cross - she was paralized. Woodrow, please don't try to reverse ever thing I say back on me. Use your own ideas, thoughts and information sources. Thanks for understanding. Moreover, I think you are confusing love for persecution. I am not asking you to stop being a Muslim, but I am asking you to develop a relationship with Jesus bc he lives.

Originally Posted by Woodrow

No Islamic site on the internet is free from evangelicals that will try their best to drive us away from Islam. If that is not bigotry and persecution, I don't know what it is.

I will tell you what it is. LOVE. Maybe not in all cases, but in mine, that's what it is---love for your lost souls. If I didn't give two hoots about where you will spend eternity, I would not waste my breath, or typing, to share with you the love of God and His desire for you to have a personal relationship with Him through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Obviously, from a Christian viewpoint, it is Islam and its "straight path" that will take you straight to hell, based on its denial of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for your sins. So, if I can "drive you away from" what will take you to hell, I would be remiss if I failed to do so.

And I understand your viewpoint that you think Christians are on their own path straight to hell, so if you don't do what you can to drive us away from that path, in a loving and respectful way, I would consider you remiss as well.

The bottom line is not bigotry or persecution, or at least shouldn't be, but true concern for the other person's soul and where it will spend eternity.

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

One of the most vehement of these Christians is also one with a lot of recent posts on this and other related threads. This person has been likened to none other than the infamous Pat Robertson of the 700 Club. A quick google search of "Pat Robertson Islam" turns up many quotes that reflect the tone of the person I have mentioned - yet he speaks repeatedly of "love".

I did a quick Google search as you suggested and did not come up with much more than that---Pat Robertson and his comments about Islam. So, who are you talking about that has been likened to him, with posts on this thread? Just curious.

Originally Posted by Phil12123

And I understand your viewpoint that you think Christians are on their own path straight to hell, so if you don't do what you can to drive us away from that path, in a loving and respectful way, I would consider you remiss as well.

The bottom line is not bigotry or persecution, or at least shouldn't be, but true concern for the other person's soul and where it will spend eternity.

I see that it is the responsibility of Muslims to spread the Message of Islam and to witness the Oneness of Allah to unbelievers. We Muslims realize that we can't guide anyone to the Truth, that quidance comes only from Allah. To those unbelievers in the Message (Christians, Jews, agnostics, atheists, etc) who ask questions genuinely trying to learn about Islam, we are obligated to share what we know about Islam in the best manner possible.

We also feel a responsibility to combat falsehood that is clear-as-day to us, but that you and other Christians hold as truth. The most blatant of enemies to Islam are those who are most evangelical in trying to misguide us to the worship of a man, Jesus (pbuh). We can't sit by idly and watch falsehood go unchallenged. Please, note that even the most evangelical of Christians serve a purpose in strengthening our resolve to the worship of One God and they challenge us to find Quranic verses and hadiths to counter their posts.

isn't it obvious? I mean I am not even following this thread and I can tell right away whom exactly Bros. Moose is referring to.. are you kidding?
look at the bright side of us being such heritics, there will be more heaven for you to share with Tony Bennett....

peace!

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Where are Christians persecuting Muslims today?

Your enthusiasm is understood and I believe I have some understanding as to how your views about wanting to share what you believe to be true. However, there is a fine line between wanting to share and wanting to impose. There is not a single Muslim country in which "Missionaries" are not entering into under false pretext of being tourists, charity workers, teachers or tradesmen etc, but are there for the single purpose of converting the people away from Islam. Their methods are very subversive and while their intent may be good on the surface, their goal is to destroy Islam. Perhaps they do not understand how evil their methods are.

Then you have the individual incidents throughout the Western world. A Sikh shop keeper from Pakistan shot and killed in Dallas, because somebody thought he was Muslim. Yes, it is more isolated and not as news worthy, but to the individuals it is just as horrific. There are no Muslim missionaries invading Western countries with the intent of converting the people and Muslims do not as readily identified. But, there are things like Mosque burnings and individual killings, simply because we are Muslim.

1994: An arsonist started a fire that burned to the ground a nearly completed mosque in Yuba City. CA.
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1995: The Islamic center in Springfield IL was destroyed by arson.
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1995-SEP-17: Vandals painted obscenities and graffiti on the windows, walls and trees of the Islamic Center of Passaic County, in Patterson, NJ. Flammable liquid was found on the floor of an outbuilding; this might have been an attempted arson.
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1995-SEP: Vandals attacked the mosque at Clarkston, GA by breaking windows, damaging lights, discharging fire extinguishers, and burning satanic symbols (inverted pentagrams) into the carpet.
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1995-OCT-21:The Islamic Center and Masjid of Greenville, SC, was destroyed in an arson attack. A suspect was later charged.
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1995-OCT-21: Vandals painted an obscene message on the wall of the Flint Islamic Center/Genesee Academy in Flint, MI.
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1996-MAR-19: Employees of a radio station in Denver, CO entered the local mosque after morning prayers. They allegedly played the national anthem on a trumpet, harassed the worshipers, and broadcast the incident live on radio. An agreement was later concluded between the local Muslim community and the radio station. It included a public apology by the station, sensitivity training for station employees and PSAs that offered a positive image of Islam.
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1998-JAN-28: A 23 year old man was arrested for allegedly smashing a concrete block through the glass front door of the mosque in Fort Collins, CO.
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1998-JAN-29: Vandals scattered metal spikes in the parking lot of the Flint Islamic Center in Flint, MI. A number of cars had flat tires.
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1998-FEB-22: A vandal threw a beer bottle through the second floor window of the mosque in Bloomingdale, IN.
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1998-MAR-8: Someone torched three school busses owned by the local Islamic school in Ottawa, ON Canada.
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1999-MAY: A man was arrested after fleeing in his car from the area of a mosque in Denver CO. Loaded weapons, machetes, hundreds of rounds of ammunition, and bomb making materials were found in his car. Jack Merylin Modig was later arrested. He allegedly said "I am an enemy against the Islamic nation [sic] and I was going to take care of business."
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1999-JUN-23: CFRB, a Toronto, ON Canada radio station broadcasted a live call-in program. The initial topic dealt with a Greek Orthodox priest who refused admittence of a seeing-eye dog into his church. A caller criticized religious extremism. He said "Nero burned the wrong people - he should have burned the Muslims." The announcer tried to change to another topic. The operations manager of CFRB later apologized. They have since drawn up new guidelines for operations during call-in shows.
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1999-MAR-5: A mosque was seriously damaged by an arsonist in Minneapolis, MN
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1999: Three youths were charged with vandalism of a Villa Park IL mosque, near Chicago. They allegedly threw several large chunks of concrete and a glass milk bottle through four windows of the Islamic Foundation.
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2000-JUN-20: A gunman seriously injured a worshiper at an Islamic Center in Memphis, TN. The door to the mosque was damaged by a shotgun blast.
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2000-NOV: A suspicious fire gutted the lobby of a mosque in Surrey, British Columbia, and severely damaged the rest of the building. There were no injuries reported. Witnesses reported seeing a van speeding away from the mosque just before an explosion was heard.
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2001-JAN: Vandals targeted the Islamic Center of Southern California.
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2001-FEB *: Vandals attacked a mosque in Winnipeg, MB, Canada. They smeared animal feces, eggs and white paint on the front of the building. Garbage was strewn around.
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2001-MAR-16: Several youths, one with a baseball bat, allegedly attacked two Muslims who were standing outside of their mosque in Sparks NV. One Muslim had his arm broken. The other was more seriously injured and was in critical condition in hospital after undergoing three operations. A member of a nearby church ran to help stop the attack.

Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_hate.htm

Hate crimes soar after bombings
Wirral Islamic Cultural Centre
Mosques outside London were also attacked after the bombings
Religious hate crimes, mostly against Muslims, have risen six-fold in London since the bombings, new figures show.

There were 269 religious hate crimes in the three weeks after 7 July, compared with 40 in the same period of 2004.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4740015.stm

Big Jump in Hate Crimes Against Muslims Documented

Final Call and IPS/GIN, News Report, Jim Lobe, Posted: Oct 10, 2006

WASHINGTON (IPS/GIN) - Complaints of discrimination, harassment and violence against Muslims jumped over 30 percent in 2005 from the previous year, according to a report released Sept. 18 by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the nation’s largest Muslim organization.

A total of 1,972 such incidents were reported in 2005. That was the highest number since CAIR began reporting anti-Muslim incidents in 1995, the year that the bombing by right-wing extremists of the federal government building in Oklahoma City, blamed initially by the mass media on Arab radicals, set off a rash of anti-Muslim attacks.

Source: http://news.newamericamedia.org/news...4ac2f3e171242e

Steep rise in hate crimes against Muslims
Chicago Sun-Times, Nov 26, 2002 by Curt Anderson

WASHINGTON--Muslims and people who are or appear to be of Middle Eastern descent were reported as victims of hate crimes more often last year than ever before, a probable consequence of the fear and suspicion that followed Sept. 11, the FBI said Monday.

Although the number of incidents has tapered off, many Muslims remain worried about a new backlash if the United States goes to war with Iraq or is hit with another major terror attack mounted by Islamic extremists.

"A lot of us feel that our patriotism is always suspect," said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_n12483387

1. Melbourne Mosque in Florida (Islamic Center of Brevard County) comes under attack from the bullets of a sniper (September 2006)

2. Tampa Mosque in Florida under attack from another sniper (September 2006).

3. Mosque in Adelanto in California is burned down (June 2005).

4. Clifton Mosque in Cincinatti, Ohio, receives a bomb threat (July 2006) after being the victim of two pipe bombs (December 2005).

5. Mosque in South Florida is vandalized with graffiti (April, 2006).

6. Muslim refused service at Subway Restaurant (December 2005).

7. Anti-Muslim Fliers are distributed door-to-door in Florida.

8. “Kill All Muslim Kids” website is launched.

9 Two Muslim Men Murdered in St. Petersburg, Florida

10. Muslim Reality in Chicago and in New York after 9-11

Source: http://makkah.wordpress.com/2007/02/...ise-post-9-11/

WHITE PAPER: PRELIMINARY REPORT ON HATE CRIMES
AGAINST ARABS AND MUSLIMS IN THE UNITED STATES

By
William J. Haddad
Executive Director

I.
Introduction

On September 11, 2001, using hijacked airplanes as weapons on targets in New York City and Washington D.C., terrorists attacked the United States of America, destroying the lives and property of American citizens. The murder victims included citizens, nationals, rescue workers and policemen of Arabic ancestry or of the Muslim faith.

Since it is believed that the terrorists were Middle Eastern and/or Muslim, civil disturbances have erupted throughout the United States targeting Americans of Arabic descent, Americans of the Islamic faith, and Americans who were stereotyped as "looking like" Arab/Muslim-Americans. Some of the disturbances erupted during sanctioned civil marches at or near mosques in the Chicago area and Dearborn, Michigan. Others were pre-meditated criminal acts of vandalism, arson, and murder---three such murders victimized persons who looked like Arab or Muslim Americans, but in fact were not (i.e. A Sikh man in New Mexico, a Pakistani man in Texas, and a Coptic man in California).

Source: http://www.arabbar.org/art-report.asp

Those are just the tip of the iceberg and are not even touching what all is happening in Europe. this is in spite of the fact that Muslims are not even evangelizing their religion and trying to subversly destroy the releigion of the country they live in. What do you suppose would happen if Muslims tried to Evangelize as Evangelists do when they come into Muslim countries.

If you are calling what us Christians are doing or just me on this forum persecution, then what do you call Muslims killing 300 laymen and a chopping a pastors hand?

I call trying to blatantly force Christianity down the throats of people who believe it is in error a form of verbal persecution. No matter who is doing it. I call Muslims who kill 300 laymen and chop off the hands of a pastor, very angry people who lack the skills to control their anger. their methods are very wrong and should not be condoned. but, they are understandable (Not Justified) when you can see that they are seeing their country and way of life being destroyed by invaders.

What about the pulling of finger nails out of a Pakistani Christian revert, and what do you call what was done to 17 year old Mary Khowry during the Lebanese civil war 1975 -1992? Muslim fanatics forced Mary and family to their knees at gun point saying, "If you don't become Muslims, you will be shot." After all were shot, she was the only one who remained alive with arms spread out in the shape of a cross - she was paralized.

One word: fanatics

Woodrow, please don't try to reverse ever thing I say back on me. Use your own ideas, thoughts and information sources.

There is no reversal the fact is I am just as adamant and believe just as strongly about Islam as you do about Christianity. If you take any of your statements and substitute Islam for Christianity and Allah(swt) for Jesus(as) you would be saying what I believe and feel as a Muslim.

Thanks for understanding. Moreover, I think you are confusing love for persecution.

forced Love is persecution. It no longer becomes love, it becomes an overwhelming desire tfor control and a need to satisfy personal wants. Evangelism is often a misguided attempt to control and show strength rather than sharing love. All too often Evangelical thoughts become an obsession and by doing so become an act of evil intent done in the misguided belief it is love.

I am not asking you to stop being a Muslim, but I am asking you to develop a relationship with Jesus bc he lives.

As a Muslim I have come to Love who Jesus(as) truly is, much stronger than I ever could love the myth I once believed. Truth is much greater and much more beautiful than fiction. Although fiction does have the greatest attraction and the strongest emotional impact, because it reflects what an individuals wants and destroys the truth. It is much more comforting and emotiaonaly strong to follow a ficticious desire, that it is to learn genuine love for the reality of truth.

Originally Posted by alapiana1

What does pbuh and swt stand for?

They are written as a sign of respect.

PBUH= Peace be Upon Him (Written after mentioning a Prophet)

PBUT= Peace be Upon Them (written when speaking of more then one Prophet)

SAW= "Salla Allahu alaihi Wa Sallam". It means "peace be upon him", but it is used when referring to Prophet

SWT= "Subhanahu wa ta'ala" meaning "Allah is pure of having partners and He is exalted from having a son."

there are many others commonly used. But, they are all written as a sign of respect or acknowledgment of an attribute.

Thank you for asking. We use them so often we make the error of forgetting they can be confusing to non-Muslims