Those isolated incidents you speak of happen to Christians too. I didn't bother to mention those. You make it sound like those Muslims did it out of anger only and out of an overwhelming moment of rage. You didn't mention how this is really built into their belief system and they sought out these Christians deliberately. It is true that Christians go into countries with the intention to evangelize. You call them invaders. I call it obeying the great commission. Jesus said, "Go ye into all the world and make disciples of every nation." Mark 16:15 But if you feel that Christianity is being forced down your throat by me then I asked God's forgiveness for being such an unprofitable servant to him, but I will continue to try to obey him the right way.

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Aren't you suppose to spread Islam? I am in disobedience to God if I don't preach the gosple, but I never put a gun to your head and told you to convert. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" Who should I obey your concepts of how I should be or my convictions on what God is telling me to do?

There are many ways to spread Islam. the best way is to share Islam by living as a Muslim so that people will ask why you have so much inner peace.

Another is to always be available to answer questions to the best of your ability

The truth does not have to be Evangelized or unwantedly imposed upon others. In fact that is a great mistake, as an error on an Evangelists part, will lead people to Hellfire. I see Evangelism as a tool of shaytan, to lead people away from God(swt) while believing they have found the path to heaven. Evangelists teach people to Love a religious concept and never learn to love God(swt).

Another way is such as this forum, in which people of all faiths can come look and learn about Islam. All sides of it and even our own errors we can make in trying to defend what we believe. We are very open and do not try to hide the errors we do make. we also are very open in speaking of how much we love Islam and the reasons why we know it is the truth. We do not go into other peoples homes unless we know the door is open and we are invited to speak of our beliefs. But, we do try to live a visible life in which people will want to ask questions. It is Allah(swt) who leads people to us, we do not assume that people want to hear us or even welcome our words.

It may not seem to be a method of sharing Islam to those who resort to more covert methods, but it does bring the word to those who genuinely want to serve Allah(swt) and as a result Islam is spreading rapidly and without coercion or any misleading statements. It is Allah(swt) alone who brings people to Islam, we can only be simple tools to help them navigate through the tangles of lies they have been told.

There is no compulsion in religion. A person needs to choose from their own free will and not because of propaganda.

This thread is coming to a head

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Love is all we Christians have, and it is our most powerful force. If it weren't for that, we wouldn't want to be here, and I for one, don't agree with Pat Robertson on every point.

OK, show me where you disagree with him. Quote something he said about Islam that you don't agree with and believe that he is wrong about.

We Christians on this forum love you too much to let you continue on the path of a Christless eternity. I believe that is the edge we have over you. WE CAN LOVE YOU BUT YOU CAN'T LOVE US. I find that limitation in your believe system reprehensible.

Although I try to be friendly, I don't take unbelievers as intimate friends. Quran 5:57 O believers! Do not make your protecting friends those, from among the people who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers, who have made your religion a mockery or pastime, fear Allah if you are true believers. and 43: 57 On that Day, even friends will become enemies to one another with the exception of the righteous people.

Love is the most powerful weapon in the universe. I don't think you know that. If it weren't for love we all wouldn't be here as God's creation. God loves you and me; he loves his creation and his church. God would cease to be God if it weren’t for his love. That is who God is. He is love in the highest sense of the word.

Allah is more than "Love". He is also just to punish those that deny Him and associate others with Him in worship.

One cannot have more love than to lay down his life for a friend. That is what Jesus did for us. Your not believing he died is you believing a lie that is designed to destroy you. I don’t want that to happen to you. This is not persecution.

I don't see this as being divinely inspired, rather a creation of man

I would be telling you these words in a country or place that forbids it. In other words, I would risk my life to tell you something that would get me imprisoned or worse put to death.
You are loved

Still that does not make Christianity any less a misguidance.

Originally Posted by Woodrow

There are many ways to spread Islam. the best way is to share Islam by living as a Muslim so that people will ask why you have so much inner peace.

Another is to always be available to answer questions to the best of your ability

The truth does not have to be Evangelized or unwantedly imposed upon others. In fact that is a great mistake, as an error on an Evangelists part, will lead people to Hellfire. I see Evangelism as a tool of shaytan, to lead people away from God(swt) while believing they have found the path to heaven. Evangelists teach people to Love a religious concept and never learn to love God(swt).

Another way is such as this forum, in which people of all faiths can come look and learn about Islam. All sides of it and even our own errors we can make in trying to defend what we believe. We are very open and do not try to hide the errors we do make. we also are very open in speaking of how much we love Islam and the reasons why we know it is the truth. We do not go into other peoples homes unless we know the door is open and we are invited to speak of our beliefs. But, we do try to live a visible life in which people will want to ask questions. It is Allah(swt) who leads people to us, we do not assume that people want to hear us or even welcome our words.

It may not seem to be a method of sharing Islam to those who resort to more covert methods, but it does bring the word to those who genuinely want to serve Allah(swt) and as a result Islam is spreading rapidly and without coercion or any misleading statements. It is Allah(swt) alone who brings people to Islam, we can only be simple tools to help them navigate through the tangles of lies they have been told.

There is no compulsion in religion. A person needs to choose from their own free will and not because of propaganda.

I can say the same about Christianity, but Islam is growing fast, and I will be the first to admit, I find that very perplexing. I shudder to think of what would happen if they had an evangelical thrust. They might grow twice as fast. I am not trying to give you guys ideas, but don't you think that Allah will accuse you for not doing what would be the most effective stratergy for winning people to Islam? I almost wish Muslims would.

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

OK, show me where you disagree with him. Quote something he said about Islam that you don't agree with and believe that he is wrong about. Although I try to be friendly, I don't take unbelievers as intimate friends. Quran 5:57 O believers! Do not make your protecting friends those, from among the people who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers, who have made your religion a mockery or pastime, fear Allah if you are true believers. and 43: 57 On that Day, even friends will become enemies to one another with the exception of the righteous people.
Allah is more than "Love". He is also just to punish those that deny Him and associate others with Him in worship. I don't see this as being divinely inspired, rather a creation of man Still that does not make Christianity any less a misguidance.

I see your point, but it does prove love and a pure motive! Justice and mercy are all part of love. I don't know what Pat R. says about Muslims. I was talking about his Christian theology.

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Those isolated incidents you speak of happen to Christians too. I didn't bother to mention those. You make it sound like those Muslims did it out of anger only and out of an overwhelming moment of rage. You didn't mention how this is really built into their belief system and they sought out these Christians deliberately. It is true that Christians go into countries with the intention to evangelize. You call them invaders. I call it obeying the great commission. Jesus said, "Go ye into all the world and make disciples of every nation." Mark 16:15 But if you feel that Christianity is being forced down your throat by me then I asked God's forgiveness for being such an unprofitable servant to him, but I will continue to try to obey him the right way.

One part of your quote above makes me realize you have been mistaken about Islam.

You didn't mention how this is really built into their belief system

True some Muslims may believe in that manner. But, remember Islam is very individual. It is our own responsibility to seek out the truth. we do not rely upon the teachings of mere instructors. a good instructor will acknowledge to his students that he is capable of error. It is only the Word of Allah(swt) that is free from error. An Instructor can only guide us to where we may find the proper word. It is up to us how we use that word.

Who is a Muslim?:

A person who believes in and consciously follows Islam is called a Muslim, also from the same root word. So, the religion is called "Islam," and a person who believes in and follows it is a "Muslim."


all Muslims have very simple Identical beliefs, our overall belief system that applies to all Muslims is:


1) Belief in God:

2) Belief in the Angels:

3) Belief in God’s Revealed Books:

4) Belief in the Prophets and Messengers of God:

5) Belief in the Day of Judgment:

6) Belief in Al-Qadar:

Muslims believe in Al-Qadar, which is Divine Predestination, but this belief in Divine Predestination does not mean that human beings do not have freewill. Rather, Muslims believe that God has given human beings freewill. This means that they can choose right or wrong and that they are responsible for their choices.

The belief in Divine Predestination includes belief in four things: 1) God knows everything. He knows what has happened and what will happen. 2) God has recorded all that has happened and all that will happen. 3) Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen. 4) God is the Creator of everything.

Those above are the the beliefs shared by all Muslims. those are the only beliefs that can truly be said are the belief system of all Muslims.

It is true there are many cultural differences in other areas.

A person from Pakistan has different cultural values than a person from Saudi Arabis, which differ from a person from New York which differ from a Texan, which differ from a Malaysian .......etc.

But we have the same beliefs as the 6 above and those may even be the only beliefs we have in common. But, because we share those beliefs we are Muslim.

Now to live as a Muslim we are obligated to follow the Pillars of Faith which are:

* Testimony of faith (Kalima)
* Prayer (Salat)
* Fasting (Sawm)
* Almsgiving (Zakat)
* Pilgrimage (Hajj)


Those are the Beliefs we are universaly taught as Muslims. Anything that goes outside of those are cultural beliefs and do not necessarily mean they are Islamic beliefs.

Originally Posted by Woodrow

One part of your quote above makes me realize you have been mistaken about Islam.




True some Muslims may believe in that manner. But, remember Islam is very individual. It is our own responsibility to seek out the truth. we do not rely upon the teachings of mere instructors. a good instructor will acknowledge to his students that he is capable of error. It is only the Word of Allah(swt) that is free from error. An Instructor can only guide us to where we may find the proper word. It is up to us how we use that word.

Who is a Muslim?:

A person who believes in and consciously follows Islam is called a Muslim, also from the same root word. So, the religion is called "Islam," and a person who believes in and follows it is a "Muslim."


all Muslims have very simple Identical beliefs, our overall belief system that applies to all Muslims is:


1) Belief in God:

2) Belief in the Angels:

3) Belief in God’s Revealed Books:

4) Belief in the Prophets and Messengers of God:

5) Belief in the Day of Judgment:

6) Belief in Al-Qadar:

Muslims believe in Al-Qadar, which is Divine Predestination, but this belief in Divine Predestination does not mean that human beings do not have freewill. Rather, Muslims believe that God has given human beings freewill. This means that they can choose right or wrong and that they are responsible for their choices.

The belief in Divine Predestination includes belief in four things: 1) God knows everything. He knows what has happened and what will happen. 2) God has recorded all that has happened and all that will happen. 3) Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen. 4) God is the Creator of everything.

Those above are the the beliefs shared by all Muslims. those are the only beliefs that can truly be said are the belief system of all Muslims.

It is true there are many cultural differences in other areas.

A person from Pakistan has different cultural values than a person from Saudi Arabis, which differ from a person from New York which differ from a Texan, which differ from a Malaysian .......etc.

But we have the same beliefs as the 6 above and those may even be the only beliefs we have in common. But, because we share those beliefs we are Muslim.

Now to live as a Muslim we are obligated to follow the Pillars of Faith which are:

* Testimony of faith (Kalima)
* Prayer (Salat)
* Fasting (Sawm)
* Almsgiving (Zakat)
* Pilgrimage (Hajj)


Those are the Beliefs we are universaly taught as Muslims. Anything that goes outside of those are cultural beliefs and do not necessarily mean they are Islamic beliefs.

Most of what you shared is common to Christians as well with the exception of having to take a pilgrimage. All the others we need to do, but our salvation is not contingent on it. But I thought i read that Muhammad said kill the infidels?

Originally Posted by alapiana1

I see your point, but it does prove love and a pure motive! Justice and mercy are all part of love.

Please, explain which part of the definition of "love" applies to sending someone to burn in the Hellfire for eternity. That sounds a lot more like the Wrath of God rather than His Mercy. I fear the Wrath of Allah and hope in His Mercy. As the song by Tina Turner goes - "What's love got to do with it?"

I don't know what Pat R. says about Muslims. I was talking about his Christian theology.

Take the time to find out using the search that I suggested. I am sure that you will find much in common with his views about Islam. I challenge you to find a quote that Pat R. made about Islam that you disagree with.

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Please, explain which part of the definition of "love" applies to sending someone to burn in the Hellfire for eternity. That sounds a lot more like the Wrath of God rather than His Mercy. I fear the Wrath of Allah and hope in His Mercy. As the song by Tina Turner goes - "What's love got to do with it?"Take the time to find out using the search that I suggested. I am sure that you will find much in common with his views about Islam. I challenge you to find a quote that Pat R. made about Islam that you disagree with.

no, I meant my being willing to risk my live to share the gospel proves love and a pure motive. Can you please send me the link of what Pat R. says about Muslims?

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Most of what you shared is common to Christians as well with the exception of having to take a pilgrimage. All the others we need to do, but our salvation is not contingent on it. But I thought i read that Muhammad said kill the infidels?

well to begin with infidel was what the crusaders called Muslims. It is an English concept. somehow Hollywood movies have turned into being a statement of Muslims.

Now for what Muhammad actually said, I can not find anything specific in the Hadith where he says to kill infidels, non-believers, Kaffirs etc.

But, I still have much to learn of the hadith.

so what does the Qur'an say, I know there are several ayyats that when taken out of contxt seem to justify the killing of non-believers. But, all that i recall when taken in their entirety are speaking of war against aggressors. I can not think off hand of any specific ayyat you are referring to. I know there is one commonly quoted by non-believers to justify that belief, but it is taken out of context. I can not recall which ayyat that is. It has been explained many times on this forum and clearly shows it is related to warfare.

Originally Posted by alapiana1

no, I meant my being willing to risk my live to share the gospel proves love and a pure motive. Can you please send me the link of what Pat R. says about Muslims?

I would not say willing to risk your life has anything to do with love for the unbeliever in Christianity such as myself, rather your love of Jesus (pbuh) and the strength of your belief that you are right and a conviction to show others "the Truth" of Christianity. I would share a similar willingness to risk my life, but for the sake of my love for Allah and for sharing the Truth of Islam and not for a supposed love for the unbeliever.

Don't you know how to do a google search? http://www.google.com/

A few websites as requested.
http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles..._robertson.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Rob...am_and_Muslims
http://www.cbn.com/blogs/scottross/0...-on-islam.aspx
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLI...lam/index.html

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

I would not say willing to risk your life has anything to do with love for the unbeliever in Christianity such as myself, rather your love of Jesus (pbuh) and the strength of your belief that you are right and a conviction to show others "the Truth" of Christianity. I would share a similar willingness to risk my life, but for the sake of my love for Allah and for sharing the Truth of Islam and not for a supposed love for the unbeliever.

Don't you know how to do a google search? http://www.google.com/

A few websites as requested.
http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles..._robertson.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Rob...am_and_Muslims
http://www.cbn.com/blogs/scottross/0...-on-islam.aspx
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLI...lam/index.html

Yes, I agree. I would be doing it out of my love for God. I am sure you can identify with that.

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Yes, I agree. I would be doing it out of my love for God. I am sure you can identify with that.

Yes, I can identify with a motive to witness for the love of God.

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

I would not say willing to risk your life has anything to do with love for the unbeliever in Christianity such as myself, rather your love of Jesus (pbuh) and the strength of your belief that you are right and a conviction to show others "the Truth" of Christianity. I would share a similar willingness to risk my life, but for the sake of my love for Allah and for sharing the Truth of Islam and not for a supposed love for the unbeliever.

Don't you know how to do a google search? http://www.google.com/

A few websites as requested.
http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles..._robertson.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Rob...am_and_Muslims
http://www.cbn.com/blogs/scottross/0...-on-islam.aspx
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLI...lam/index.html

I read some of the link you sent and now I am more confused than ever. I just read a little to get the gist of where it was going. Here is the part that stands out:

And I want to show you the statement of the Study of Islam and Democracy, signed on by dozens and dozens of individuals and groups where they said, "We wish again to state unequivocally that neither the al-Qaeda organization nor Usama bin Laden represents Islam or reflects Muslim beliefs and practice. Rather, groups like al-Qaeda have misused and abused Islam in order to fit their own radical and indeed anti-Islamic agenda."

And this is again signatories all over the place, dozens. They speak for mainstream Muslims in America and worldwide.

ROBERTSON: You know, I hate to tell you, Alan, but that is absolute falsehood, not on your part, but on the part of those who signed it. All you have to do is read the writings of Mohammed in the Koran. He urges people to attack the infidels. He urges his followers to kill Christians and Jews. He talks about eradicating all of the Jews. This man was an absolute wild-eyed fanatic. He was a robber and a brigand. And to say that these terrorists distort Islam, they're carrying out Islam.

I used to believe just the way Pat R. spoke, but since I have been on this forum I started to see it more like Alan states, but now I am confused, bc I looked at the persecuted Christians and the terrorist attacks and I compare it with the way you are and there is such a blantant contrast. I think the scary thing is Woodrow is right about Islam being an individualized religion. I honestly believe that there are Muslims that think and believe like the former statements, but there are those who believe and act on the later. I am not sure you know the path you are taking yourself and what it is eventually leading you to do. Muhammad does state in the Koran to attack the infidels. My feelings are mix about Islam at this point, and it is a very powerful and scary religion to me. It might sound like I am glorifying Islam, but I am not. I have a gut feeling if it keeps growing the way it is, I will eventually be martyred by a Muslim, because I have no intentions to follow Islam, and it won't be long before we are confronted with it at our doorsteps.