Originally Posted by vpb

in Islam, everything is based on knowledge, the more knowledge you have , the more you trust in God, the more pious you are, and that's why the first word revealed is "Ekara" which means "READ", so knowledge is keept in high esteem.

so when you have something that is not well defined, a complex thing, then a number of definitions come from that, same as people can't really define the word "intelligence", cuz it's a complex thing.

A former Muslim told me the more knowledge you have the less your security you have. He said that even the prophet Muhammad wasn't sure of his salvation. If that is the case, where do you think you stand? Do you know that Allah will save you from you sin on the last day? No, I didn’t think so either. I know I am covered, and I don't have to worry about facing a Christless eternity. I do not commit shirk as you may suppose, because I believe in the true God and Creator of the worlds. The God I know first loved me, and it is His goodness that leads me to repentance. You must love your God in order to be loved back (maybe). We have a sure foundation and there is no devil in hell that can shake it. We have something to offer that no other religion has, and it makes Satan mad. We have the light. According to Islam Allah sent messengers to deliver the word. To the Christian, God sent His Son who is the light of the world and truth. I wouldn’t change shoes with anyone for the whole world. Glory to God in the highest.

Originally Posted by alapiana1

He said that even the prophet Muhammad wasn't sure of his salvation.

No wonder this guy is a former Muslim... where did he get his knowledge from? Anti-Islamic websites? The Prophet knew fully well that he was granted Paradise.

Looks like you friend never had much knowledge to begin with.

Do you know that Allah will save you from you sin on the last day? No, I didn’t think so either. I know I am covered, and I don't have to worry about facing a Christless eternity.

We are saved because of our own actions and the Mercy of God. It is called justice. Don't expect an evil sinning Muslim to enter paradise without being punished. That is not just.

No wonder your religion has so little rules that you need to follow. No one would follow them even if they did exist because they already think they are saved.

I don't know that I am covered. That is why I continue to do good deeds and strive in the way of Allah, because I need it. If I knew I was already guaranteed paradise I would not do half the good deeds I do now.

By the way, it is very arrogant of you to think you are guaranteed Paradise- you are not deed yet. You could die an atheist for all you know.

We have a sure foundation and there is no devil in hell that can shake it.

Yeh, a solid foundation based on a book whose authenticity is disputed.

According to Islam Allah sent messengers to deliver the word.

Yeh, same goes to Christianity, we believe in the more or less the same prophets, duh.

To the Christian, God sent His Son who is the light of the world and truth.

To the Muslim, God is well above all that you attribute to Him and your sin of attributing a Son to Him is so great that it even the mountains would crumble upon being exposed it, had God not protected them that.

To the Muslim, we know that God is Just and so would not punish an innocent with the sins of others, let alone allow Himself to be punished at the hands of His creation!! What blasphemy! We are all held accountable for our own deeds.

We know that our fate is in our own hands, and by doing good deeds ourselves and hoping for the Mercy of Allah we will be saved.

Paradise is for those who do good, not for lip service.

Originally Posted by Malaikah

No wonder this guy is a former Muslim... where did he get his knowledge from? Anti-Islamic websites? The Prophet knew fully well that he was granted Paradise.

Looks like you friend never had much knowledge to begin with.


We are saved because of our own actions and the Mercy of God. It is called justice. Don't expect an evil sinning Muslim to enter paradise without being punished. That is not just.

No wonder your religion has so little rules that you need to follow. No one would follow them even if they did exist because they already think they are saved.

I don't know that I am covered. That is why I continue to do good deeds and strive in the way of Allah, because I need it. If I knew I was already guaranteed paradise I would not do half the good deeds I do now.

By the way, it is very arrogant of you to think you are guaranteed Paradise- you are not deed yet. You could die an atheist for all you know.




Yeh, a solid foundation based on a book whose authenticity is disputed.



Yeh, same goes to Christianity, we believe in the more or less the same prophets, duh.



To the Muslim, God is well above all that you attribute to Him and your sin of attributing a Son to Him is so great that it even the mountains would crumble upon being exposed it, had God not protected them that.

To the Muslim, we know that God is Just and so would not punish an innocent with the sins of others, let alone allow Himself to be punished at the hands of His creation!! What blasphemy! We are all held accountable for our own deeds.

We know that our fate is in our own hands, and by doing good deeds ourselves and hoping for the Mercy of Allah we will be saved.

Paradise is for those who do good, not for lip service.

Is it not true that Muhammad said that even though he is an apostel of Allah he doesn't know what Allah will do to him? He even said that one can be tormented in the grave just for soiling his pants. If you are not sure it can be found in the hadith 5.266 and look at 2.460. Either you are not being honest with me or you don't know the QUR'AN as well as I thought!
Peace

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Is it not true that Muhammad said that even though he is an apostel of Allah he doesn't know what Allah will do to him? He even said that one can be tormented in the grave just for soiling his pants. If you are not sure it can be found in the hadith 5.266 and look at 2.460. Either you are not being honest with me or you don't know the QUR'AN as well as I thought!
Peace

Just want to clarify a few things. The Ahadith are not part of the Qur'an, although we do give much credability to the Ahadith and are obligated to obey the authentic Ahadith. The Hadith are much more like the Gospels, rather than being the words of God(swt) they are the words of reliable witnesses. The reliability of ahadith is dependent upon it's authenticity, which is why when we quote any Hadith it is essential to name the narrator of the Hadith.

Trying to find authentic hadith that correspond with the numbers that you mention I find from Bukhari:

Volumn 001, Book 005, Hadith Number 266.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Maimuna bint Al-Harith : I placed water for the bath of Allah's Apostle and put a screen. He poured water over his hands, and washed them once or twice. (The subnarrator added that he did not remember if she had said thrice or not). Then he poured water with his right hand over his left one and washed his private parts. He rubbed his hand over the earth or the wall and washed it. He rinsed his mouth and washed his nose by putting water in it and blowing it out. He washed his face, forearms and head. He poured water over his body and then withdrew from that place and washed his feet. I presented him a piece of cloth (towel) and he pointed with his hand (that he does not want it) and did not take it.

There is no ayyat in the Qur'an numbered 5:266 so I am assuming you are talking about an Hadith.


I do not find any authentic hadith numbered 2:460,, Nor is there any ayyat in the Qur'an listed as 2:460

LOL, alapiana1 got owned.

Originally Posted by Philosopher

LOL, alapiana1 got owned.

I don't see it that way. He is not Muslim and I do not expect him to be familiar with the Qur'an or the Ahadith. I can understand how there would be some confusion for a Non-Muslim over the words we use.

I do disagree with his beliefs and believe he is in error. But, I also believe he is very sincere as to what he does believe.

Because I disagree with his beliefs does not mean I believe he would intentionaly say something invalid.

.................But, I also believe he is very sincere as to what he does believe
.............I believe he would (not) intentionaly say something invalid.

Then why does he never give a direct answer when a straight forward question is asked?

[QUOTE=NoName55;749890]

.................But, I also believe he is very sincere as to what he does believe
.............I believe he would intentionaly say something invalid........
/quote]Then why does he never give a direct answer when a straight forward question is asked?

Only he can answer that.

I am assuming it is either an oversight or an honest lack of knowledge to answer the question. I believe that he was under the impression that his answers would be self evident and that he would never be questioned as to the validity of them.

I do not think he expected the reaction he gets from us and is only just now realizing that his beliefs and answers are self evident only to him. Since we as Muslims do question everything, we do not accept anything simply because it is told to us. This can be quite a difficult awakening to anybody who has accepted blind faith. I doubt that he expected the reactions he has been getting and that he expected us to believe everything because it is written in the Bible. We are probably the first people he has come across that do not accept the bible as being the word of God(swt)

Originally Posted by alapiana1

By the way, the Qur'an misrepresents Biblical Christianity. It bases its assumptions on Catholicism, because no where in the Bible does it state that followers of Christ are to include Mary as deity or part of the trinity. Remember, we do not see God as one in three gods. We see Him as one substance yet three persons, and contrary to the Qur'an, Mary is not part of it.

last time I looked Catholics were in the majority (by a long way) in the Christian world. and Catholics worship Mary. And a god is 'one who is worthy of worship'. so they take Mary as a god.

the part of qur'an you quoted doesn't mention bible or trinity. as usual, no mistake there. it is entirely correct and even precise. all praise belongs to Allah ta'ala.

peace

Originally Posted by Woodrow

Only he can answer that.

I am assuming it is either an oversight or an honest lack of knowledge to answer the question. I believe that he was under the impression that his answers would be self evident and that he would never be questioned as to the validity of them.

I do not think he expected the reaction he gets from us and is only just now realizing that his beliefs and answers are self evident only to him. Since we as Muslims do question everything, we do not accept anything simply because it is told to us. This can be quite a difficult awakening to anybody who has accepted blind faith. I doubt that he expected the reactions he has been getting and that he expected us to believe everything because it is written in the Bible. We are probably the first people he has come across that do not accept the bible as being the word of God(swt)

JazakAllah khaira wa Salaam Alaikum

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Is it not true that Muhammad said that even though he is an apostel of Allah he doesn't know what Allah will do to him? He even said that one can be tormented in the grave just for soiling his pants. If you are not sure it can be found in the hadith 5.266 and look at 2.460. Either you are not being honest with me or you don't know the QUR'AN as well as I thought!
Peace

I know what I am talking about. I also know which hadith you are referring too, and that there is a context and interpretation to it. I can't remember what it was though- I think it might have been that the Prophet pbuh said it BEFORE it was clarified to him that he would enter paradise without being punished.

Anyway, don't quote me on that, I'm not 100% certain. The one thing I am certain about is that your friend is wrong and the Prophet was guaranteed paradise.

Originally Posted by alapiana1

A former Muslim told me the more knowledge you have the less your security you have. He said that even the prophet Muhammad wasn't sure of his salvation. If that is the case, where do you think you stand? Do you know that Allah will save you from you sin on the last day? No, I didn’t think so either. I know I am covered, and I don't have to worry about facing a Christless eternity. I do not commit shirk as you may suppose, because I believe in the true God and Creator of the worlds. The God I know first loved me, and it is His goodness that leads me to repentance. You must love your God in order to be loved back (maybe). We have a sure foundation and there is no devil in hell that can shake it. We have something to offer that no other religion has, and it makes Satan mad. We have the light. According to Islam Allah sent messengers to deliver the word. To the Christian, God sent His Son who is the light of the world and truth. I wouldn’t change shoes with anyone for the whole world. Glory to God in the highest.

This deception of falsely being assured of salvation is what may mislead Muslims from the straight path they are on. Muslims be warned!

Originally Posted by Malaikah

I know what I am talking about. I also know which hadith you are referring too, and that there is a context and interpretation to it. I can't remember what it was though- I think it might have been that the Prophet pbuh said it BEFORE it was clarified to him that he would enter paradise without being punished.

Anyway, don't quote me on that, I'm not 100% certain. The one thing I am certain about is that your friend is wrong and the Prophet was guaranteed paradise.

The only earnest we have of paradise is having the Holy Spirit and being sealded by the blood of the lamb hid in Christ.

I can see that you have not grasped the degree of security and assurance we do have as Muslims. We know that Allah(swt) is all just and merciful. We do know that he will punish us no more than what our sins warrant, but that out of his goodness and forgiveness he will reward us countless times more than what we could ever be worthy of. We trust in His word without any question and know fully that he will guide us as we walk on the path to Jannah.

True. Only with justice we go to Hell, but it's the forgivness of Allah swt that helps us to enter Jannah.
may Allah make us of those who enter Jannah.

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

This deception of falsely being assured of salvation is what may mislead Muslims from the straight path they are on. Muslims be warned!

It sounds more like not having assurance leads away from the straight path. It is like walking in darkness with the blind leading the blind as Jesus puts it and the dead burying their dead.