If you look up the definition of Judaism, it says it is traced back to Abraham. I understand that you could techincally say he submitted to the One True God. And I understand how he could be called the first Muslim since his son was Ishmael, but wasnt that the son born of a concubine Hagar?

Yes, they may. But if you've read the verses which i mentioned in my former post, it is a direct response to those who claimed he was a Jew. Did he call himself a Jew? Do they have proof for that, or do they just place that idea in their books? I can assure you that you'll find no authentic evidence which states him saying that he was one. Although they may say it. It's almost like a time paradox.

As sister umzayd stated in the previous post also;





That's kool that you understand.




The scholars have stated that he was married to her. But just for arguments sake - if she was to be a concubine and give birth to a son. Is that something to be looked down upon?

God doesn't look at your status in the sight of people, or how much wealth you have etc. Rather - He looks at your hearts, and your piety. So if one was to argue that he 'is the son of a concubine' therefore, he 'can't be praised or loved in the sight of God', then that claim is unjust and also insulting. And i'm sure you agree that if any of us were living some centuries previously, and one was to use that as an insult to make us seem inferior in the sight of God - we wouldn't like it either.


What is the right upon a slave?


The Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said;

"Those slaves are your brothers, only God gave you an upper hand over them. So let that who has his brother (i.e. slave) under him give him the same food he himself eats, and the same clothing as he himself wears. The master may not give his brother a task that is beyond his ability. If he does give him such task, let him lend him a hand."

He (peace be upon him) also said:

' If a man hits or beats his slave, his atonement is the freeing of that slave.

Reported by Muslim and Abu Dawood.

There are more narrations of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him):

'Umar bin Al-Khattab once walked in Makkah and saw some slaves standing aside waiting, while their master ate. He was angry at this and inquired of the master :

"Why do some masters regard themselves as superior to their slaves ? "

Then he ordered the slaves to advance and eat.



A man once entered the house of Salman, may God be pleased with him, and saw him kneading his dough. "What are you doing, Abu 'Abdullah? " " I have sent my servant on an errand, " he answered. " So I didn't like to give him some more work." This is some of what Islam did for slaves !

The Islamic position on Slavery: A refutation of doubts
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions

That is just the opinions if for arguments sake, one was to say that she was a concubine. Yet as i've stated earlier, she was the wife of Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him.)




And Allaah knows best.





Regards.

Muslim is not a race. It is a person who submits to Allah(swt). Ishmael can be called the first Arab but he was not the first Muslim. The First Human Muslim we know of is Adam(PBUH).

There seems to be much confusion among people that Muslim=Arab and Arab=Muslim. But, that is far from the case. Only about 15% of the world's Muslims are Arab and not all Arabs are Muslim. There are also Arabs that are Jewish, Christian, Sabeean, Hindu, etc.

I think the confusion over Abraham doesn't have to do with how he saw himself. He clearly would not have seen himself as either Jewish or Arab as the concepts did not even exist at his time. But today he is claimed by both Jews and Arabs who, of course, want to consider him one of their own.

As having to be of the tribe of Judah to be Jewish, I don't think that it is necessary. Yes, I understand that this is where we generally think of the term as coming from (though if one reads the posts in the "ask a Jew" thread, I believe I read a different answer there about that a few months back). But that does not take into account that today we have people who are of the tribe of Benjamin (and this would included King David) and of the tribe of Levi (for example all those with the last name of Cohen) who are also considered Jews. So, the term "Jew", as used today, includes more than just the descendants of Judah.

Hi Jag, welcome to the forum. You asked a few posts back about the story of Muhammad (peace be upon him). Here is a quote from a short but sweet outline of the story written by Hamza Yusuf, who is a convert to Islam:


The Prophet of Islam was born in the city of Mecca, Arabia, into a poor but noble branch of an aristocratic clan known as Quraysh, a people who despised treachery, lies and stupidity, while honouring bravery in battle, generosity in partying, and cleverness in poetry.

Some families, were so ashamed of their baby girls, that they would bury them alive instead of suffering the possible indignity of future dishonour. The religion of the Arabs at the time was a hodge-podge of superstition, divination and idolatry. To them, man's life ended with his death and his afterlife was based on his military exploits might be immortalized by a poets tongue.

The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was born into this world on April 9th, 570, Christian era in the lunar month of Rabi'a al-Awwal. His father, Abdallah died during his mother’s pregnancy. And for the first four years he was raised in the relative purity of the desert by a Bedouin woman named Halimah. After which he returned to his mother, Aminah. But in his seventh year, his mother died leaving him in the care of his grandfather.

At the age of twenty-five, he was employed as a commercial agent by Lady Khadijah, a successful widow from his own clan. She soon recognized his honesty and good nature and proposed marriage. Although fifteen years younger than she was, he accepted her proposal, and fathered six of his seven children with her.

At the age of forty, it had become his custom to escape the idolatry of Meccan society by seeking solitude in a cave on the mountain known as "the Mountain of Light." In the solitary confines of his small cave a voice pierced his consciousness declaring: "Recite!"

Alarmed and shivering he fled to his wife, begging her to wrap him in a cloak. He feared for his sanity, concerned that a desert spirit or poetic muse might be pursuing him. More revelations soon followed and Muhammad came to the understanding that he was not only a prophet in a long line of prophets, but that he was the last of them who was sent with a universal message.

As the days passed his revelations increased and they were powerfully rhythmic punctuated with intoxicating messages that challenged listeners to reflect on everyday miracles such as the alternation of the night and day

These revelations revealed to Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, came to be known as the Qur'an, the Muslim holy book. For thirteen years he invited his clan to worship one God, sit with slaves in spiritual solidarity, respect women as soul-full equals and the source of human mercy, care for the widow, the orphan, the weak and the oppressed.

At first people ridiculed his message and accused him of attempting "to make the gods one." His message threatened his people’s financial control of the markets of Mecca where pilgrims from all over Arabia came to spend their wealth.

When his clan failed to stop his preaching they plotted to kill him in his sleep. But he was warned by the Angel Gabriel and told to flee in the cover of darkness to Madina with his beloved friend and lifelong companion Abu Bakr.

Setting out, the two sought refuge in a cave to escape the skilled trackers of Mecca hot on their trail. The bounty hunters quickly came upon the cave, but a spider’s web had already covered the entrance and a dove with her young rested in a nest above it.

When the posse left and the two felt safe again, they continued their journey to the city of Yathrib. And as they entered it the young girls and children of Bani Najjar came out chanting lines of poetry which is still sung all over the world in remembrance of this auspicious occasion.

The name Yathrib was changed to Medina, city of hope. It became a city founded on the brotherhood of virtue. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, enacted a treaty uniting the once warring groups. He secured the rights of the Jewish minority by granting them full citizenship and freedom to practice their religion without constraint.

Days after his arrival in Medina he began the construction of a mosque, a sanctuary of prayer and meditation, in the centre of the city. And he had his companions; the Muslims create their own marketplace in order to ensure economic strength.

The Meccans, sensing that a rising power was now emerging in the peninsula, plotted ways of subverting the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and his growing community of believers.

And the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, who had practiced a strict pacifism in Mecca for thirteen years and disliked the use of coercive force, was now given permission by God to defend against any attacks by his enemies. The Qur'an declared, "Fighting has been prescribed for you and you detest it, but perhaps you detest something and in it is much good. And perhaps you love something and in it is much harm, and God knows and you do not know." [Qur'an 2:216].

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "Never desire to meet your enemies, rather ask God for peace and well-being; but should you be forced to meet them, then act courageously." [Sahih al-Bukhari]

Muslims are not ashamed of their Prophet’s teaching about war. On the contrary, for us it is a great source of pride. He was courageous as a great lion against the strong and oppressive yet gentle as a shepherd with the weak and the oppressed.

The true object of war fought for God should always be peace. What the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, taught is that Muslims fight for a just cause only. In this world, there are only two choices: two sides, truth and justice or falsehood and oppression. You don’t have to be a Muslim to understand that.

After years of conflict between members of his clan and his followers, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, had a revelation that he should visit the sacred mosque. In the eighth year after his migration to Medina the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, set out for Mecca but his adversaries refused to allow him in. They sent out an arbitrator to strike an agreement that would bring the stand-off to an end. And on every point of this treaty the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, compromised his own position in pursuit of peace.

On the journey back to Medina some of the companions were deeply troubled by what had just taken place and disappointed that they were thwarted from visiting the sanctuary. When asked to explain, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, replied, "Did I say it was going to be this year?"

And so the following year, in accordance with the treaty, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and his followers performed a pilgrimage completely unmolested. But soon his clan the Quraysh broke their end of the deal, massacring another clan with alliance to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, attacking them even in the sacred precinct. Abu Sufyan, the head of the Prophet’s enemies, attempted to restore the truce but it was too late. News of the massacre enraged the believers and the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, summoned all of the Muslims capable of bearing arms to march on Mecca. When the nearly ten thousand Muslims arrived on the outskirts of the city, the Quraysh realized they did not stand a chance and people either fled or stayed in their homes.

And so it was, after years of persecution, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, marched triumphant into the city of his birth at the head of the largest army ever assembled in Arabian history. With his head bowed in humility he declared a general amnesty and granted war criminals refuge.

His overwhelming magnanimity of character led to a mass conversion among the citizens of Mecca. Even Abu Sufyan, his archenemy, embraced the religion of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. In the months that followed, almost all of Arabia dispatched representatives to swear allegiance to this Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and to enter in the faith of Islam. In a period of twenty-three years Muhammad, peace be upon him, had succeeded in uniting a feuding people trapped in cycles of violence into one people with a sense of destiny and a mission that would transform the world.

He elevated the low, and he lowered the elevated that they might meet in that middle place known as brotherhood. He infused in them a love of learning unleashing a creative power that would lead to some of the most extraordinary scientific breakthroughs in human history.

He died on the same day he was born, in the same house he had lived in for ten years in Medina, on a small bed made of leather stuffed with palm fibres, in the arms of his beloved wife Aishah. His dying words were, "Treat your women well, and do not oppress your servants, the prayer, the prayer, don’t be neglectful of the prayer. O God, my highest companion, O highest companion."



source

Makes sense. Except i'm still having a problem with this Isaac Ishamel thing.

According to the Torah, Isaac was the one whom Abraham's offspring would be reconed.

I'm not saying Ishmael wasnt blessed, for God did bless him and he had 12 tribes under him.

But according to the Torah and the Bible it was through Isaac that the covenant was made, that Abraham's offspring would be known, and the lineage of Jesus was made.

He was also the son promised to Sarah and Abraham - Ishmael was not the one.

So, i understand what you are saying, but i have to ask. Since the Torah predates the Quran, wouldent it be more accurate? Or in this case, does the Quran correct the Torah through a revelation?

actually according to Jewish Laws the rights of inheritance whether of a covenant or otherwise, goes to the first born.. And the first son of Abraham PBUH and the one who was taken for the sacrifice is Ishmael.. Issac wasn't even born at the time.. why do you think Sara (P) wanted Hagar taken else where? she was barren!.. it was later that she came to conceive Abraham received gladtiding of Issac when Sara was of very old age... that is if we are to go purely by history not theology...
I hope that helps... I am sure someone here can offer you some sources, it is 1.18Am where I am not and can't dedicate to this with any justice...but hope it was of help?
peace and welcome to LI

well we can legitimately claim prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) as a Muslim, because 'Muslim' means 'one who has submitted to the will of the One True God'. And certainly the Jews may claim him as a ancestor, but we would dispute about whether the prophet was as partial as their scriptures make him out to be, and abandoned his teenage son from a 'slave-girl' because a superior son had been born to him from his wife.

peace to you

as you correctly guessed, we do believe that the torah was corrupted and so the qur'anic version of events is the correct one, and that God will protect the qur'an from corruption because it is the final scripture to stand for all time and for all humanity.

unfortunately the bible stories of Ishmael/Isaac portray a very partial God which goes against the Islamic understanding of God. We do believe that human hands altered these scriptures and deliberately tried to exclude Ishmael from any 'spiritual' inheritence so to speak. still, you can see that the covenant was made before the birth of Isaac and the circumcision, which was a sign of that covenant, was performed by Abraham upon Ishmael. his descendants kept faith with that and always circumcised their offspring.

If you read the OT scriptures relating to Ishmael you will find some odd things. for example, Ishmael would have been at least 16 when he and his mother were supposedly cast out (according to the bible Abraham pbuh was 86 when Ishmael was born and 100 when Isaac was born, and Ishmael was cast out when Isaac was weaned). and yet in Genesis 21:14 when they were cast out Hagar is supposed to have carried her son. and a few verses later when she is in despair of thirst she 'threw him under a bush'! that's not a strapping lad, it's a baby. and indeed we Muslims do believe that when Ishmael was still a babe Abraham pbuh took them away, to Mecca, and they established a settlement there. Also, it clearly states in the bible that when Prophet Abraham died he was buried by both of his sons, Ishmael and Isaac.

So Sarah's rather mean and snobbish demand to 'cast out this bondwoman and her son' was not so effective, as there must have been communication between Ishmael and Abraham (peace be upon them both) for Ishmael to know that his father was dying and return to bury him.#

consider this: christians always condemn the fact that Islam allows polygamy, and find it distasteful that God would permit more than one wife in decent, dignified marriage in which each wife MUST be treated equally. and then, they tell us that the great patriarch and 'friend of God' Abraham pbuh was allowed by God to sleep with his slave-girl in order to get a son, and then commanded by God to throw them both out because a new, superior son had been born to his 'superior' wife and the inferior son doesn't count any more (won't that resound with all those poor kids whose fathers go on to have 'new' families after divorcing their first wives - somehow I would expect God to be better than them). and that is the moral high ground which the Christians stand upon?

In the bible, when Isaac is going to be sacrificed there is a repetition of 'take your son, your ONLY son, whom you so love, Isaac' (such detailed instructions for an only son!). why is it emphasised 'your ONLY son?' not 'your son Isaac whom you so love'? I believe it's possible that God left it there to show us the error of the copyists in ascribing the sacrifice to Isaac. at no time was Isaac the 'only son'. Ishmael was born first and for 14 years he was the 'only son' of Abraham pbuh. At no time was Isaac the ONLY son of his father. And why should Ishmael be so thoroughly disowned that God himself denies him his father, by calling Isaac 'Abraham's only son'? was it because he was the son of a slave woman? does God despise a person for their lineage?

anyway, must get back to my kids now. peace to you!

Here's something amazing, which will insha Allaah (God willing) clarify alot of things while placing them into context.

“How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?’ But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie” (Jeremiah 8:8).

We are told in Genesis 22:2: “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” At no time during the lifetime of Isaac (upon whom be peace) was he ever the “only son” of Abraham. Did “God” forget about Ishmael, Isaac’s brother who was fourteen years his senior?


Christians will retort that God only intended the son Abraham “loved,” the implication being that Abraham hated Ishmael. Although we can never believe such nonsense, what does the Law say about this?

In Deuteronomy 21:15-17 we read: “If a man has two wives, one loved and the other unloved, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the unloved, and if the firstborn son is of her who is unloved, then it shall be, on the day of bequeaths his possessions to his sons, that he must not bestow firstborn status on the son of the loved wife in preference to the son of the unloved, the true firstborn. But he shall acknowledge the son of the unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.”


Therefore, it matters not whether Abraham loved Ishmael, he IS the first-born. It was none other than the evil pen of a scribe who changed the name “Ishmael” to “Isaac” in Genesis 22:2. Truly Allah has told us: “Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places…” (Qur’an 4:46).

“But Ishmael was the illegitimate son of a bondswoman!” the Christian will shout. Tell him to consider the following passage: “Then Sarah, Abram’s wife, took Hagar her maid, the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his WIFE, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan. So Hagar bore Abram a SON; and Abram named his SON, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram” (Genesis 16:3, 15-16).



Genesis 15 reveals to us two vital stipulations in the covenant between God and the chosen child of Abraham. It reads: “Then He (God) brought him (Abraham) outside and said, ‘Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.’ And he said to him, (1) ‘So shall your descendants be.’ On the same day, the Lord made a covenant with Abram saying, (2) ‘To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates’” (Genesis 15:5, 18.).

The vast majority of land between the two great rivers constitutes the Arabian desert and peninsula. This region was never conquered by the Children of Israel, but immediately upon the emergence of Muhammad and the Muslims. It was only with the appearance of the Messenger of the Covenant Muhammad (Malachi 3) that all idolatry was rooted out of these lands promised to the covenant progeny of Abraham. Jewish history demonstrates the obvious ineptness of the Children of Jacob to abolish the heathen worship of statues in Palestine and even in their very Temple!

Karen Armstrong, author of the popular book A History of God remarks: “We have seen that it took the ancient Israelites some 700 years to break with their old religious allegiances and accept monotheism, but Muhammad managed to help the Arabs achieve this difficult transition in a mere 23 years” (page 146).



The Sign of God’s covenant was circumcision. In Genesis 17:9, 11 God tells Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations…and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.”

In verse 26 we are told: “That very same day Abraham was circumcised, and his son Ishmael.” So far we have been told that:

1) Ishmael is Abraham’s first-born son.
2) Hagar is Abraham’s lawfully wedded wife.
3) The covenant seed will be as numerous as the stars.
4) The covenant seed will be given the land between the Nile and Euphrates Rivers.
5) Ishmael was Abraham’s only son and seed for fourteen years.
6) Circumcision is the symbol of God’s covenant.
7) Ishmael was circumcised with his father on the same day to fulfill the covenant with the flesh of their foreskins.
NONE of the above have anything to do with Isaac!

The most obvious piece of Jewish scribal deception, however, occurs in Genesis 21:

“Now Abraham was one hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him…So the child grew up and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the same day Isaac was weaned. And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing (playing with Isaac, REB version).

Therefore she said to Abraham, ‘Cast out this bondswoman with her son; for the son of this bondswoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac’…So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away (he set the child on her shoulder, REB version).

Then she departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. And the water in the skin was used up, and she placed the boy under one of the shrubs. Then she went and sat down across from him at a distance of about a bowshot; for she said to herself, ‘Let me not see the death of the boy.’ So she sat opposite him, and lifted her voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad (God heard the child crying, REB version).


Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, ‘What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand (in your hand), for I will make him a great nation.’ Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water, and gave the lad a drink.” – Genesis 21:5-19.

It is very clear from the text that we are given the profile of an infant here and not that of a seventeen-year old man. In Jewish custom, a child (Isaac) is weaned after three years. This would have made Ishmael seventeen (Remember that Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born and 100 when Isaac was born, Gen. 16:16, 21:5). Can you imagine a grown man sitting on Hagar’s shoulder, CRYING beneath a shrub for water, and then being LIFTED UP and FED by his mother? It is very interesting to note that although Ishmael is referenced in no less than eleven places in this passage, he is never addressed by name.

It seems as if the chronologies of these events have been deliberately manipulated in order to give the reader the impression that Ishmael was banished due to a conflict between him and Isaac. In actuality, the nameless infant would not know his younger sibling until many years later. According to Islam, Ishmael and his mother were never banished at all. Abraham was told by God to leave them in the wilderness as a sign of his faith that God would fulfill His covenant under any circumstances. This was where Ishmael grew up and continued his father's work.



According to Genesis 16:10-11, God called him “Ishmael” because He heard Hagar crying after she ran away from Sarah. This concocted story serves as a clever way for the rabbinical scribes to explain the meaning of Ishmael’s name, meaning “God heard,” while also making the point that Hagar and her son are inferior to Sarah. It is possible, however, that the child was not named until after Genesis 21:5-19 was written and “God heard” (verse 17) the infant child Ishmael crying while he and his mother settled in Baca, “the weeping valley” (Psalm 84:6; Qur’an 3:96), and not Beersheba as the Bible states. Another possibility is that God named him Ishmael because He had heard the prayer of Abraham for a son to continue his legacy. Why exactly Ishmael’s name is not mentioned in Genesis 21:5-19 remains a mystery.

We are also told in Genesis 25:9 that in the spirit of brotherhood, both sons of Abraham buried their father. From this we can also conclude that the story given in Genesis 16:10 in which God tells Hagar that she must “submit herself under Sarah’s hand,” and Ishmael is called a “wild ass of a man,” are undoubtedly forgeries penned by the Jewish rabbis and scribes in order to discredit the God-given rights of Ishmael, the ancestor of Muhammad -- The Messenger of God (salallau ‘alayhi wa sallam).

Source:
http://www.voiceforislam.com/2005/03...-or-isaac.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/12447-post24.html (Differences between The Qur'an, The Tanakh and The Bible)

But Ishmael wasnt the one promised to Abraham, it was Isaac - since Sarah was his mom.

okay, so you answered my questions. You believe the Torah was corrupted, thats all i really need to know, thanks.

what are you basing your opinion on? history or biblical errors? Book of Jeremiah, Chapter 8, Verse 8 it says this
8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

You have to admit there is a biblical error on either front..

Saying your only son, is wrong which ever way you slice it, you'll get only Ishmael out of the formula-- 1- Abraham has two sons so how can it be take your only son?.. 2- if indeed we are to go by take your only son, then the son would have been Ishmael on the account Issac wasn't even born... here is something written here sometime ago by a member--