Can anyone sumarize for me the Islamic story of Ishmael? Other than the suggestion that it was Ishmael rather than Issac that Abraham took to offer as a sacrifice, but God spared the child, what else is told of either of them in the Qur'an or the Hadith?

Several times, from several different posters, I have heard Muslims express concern that Ishmael was the first-born son and therefore......What?
....I haven't been really able to tell what it is that people are trying to say rightfully falls to Ishmael other than the privileges of being the recognized first-born son. I know of no Jew or Christian that disputes that Ishmael was Abraham's oldest son.

The covenant that Jews and Christians speak of God making with Abraham has nothing to do with being the first-born, but of being the child that God promised to Abraham that he would have through Sarah. So what is the point of Ishmael being the first-born? What is changed by recognizing that?

Salaam/peace;


therefore the blessed Prophet (p) had right over the holy land

I think it is legitimate to point out that according to the bible Ishmael is cast out and disinherited, and the scribes drive home the point that he and his descendents have no part in the spiritual inheritance of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) either. so he is quite a despised person, notwithstanding God's promise to grant him a great number of descendants.

Why would anyone have a problem with that? well, for a start it falls short of a human standard of basic decency, never mind divine grace. nowhere in the bible is it suggested that Ishmael was cast out and disinherited because he was evil or was deserving in any way of such harsh treatment - it was instigated by Sarah's petty jealousy on behalf of her son and portrayed as a kind of snobbishness that Ishmael, although a son of Abraham pbuh, was also a son of a slave and therefore inferior. the idea that God would condone this kind of thinking (which is implicit in the scriptures) is amazing.

Furthermore, according to Deuteronomy, the firstborn is owed a double portion of inheritance, no matter whether his mother is despised or not. 'For (the firstborn) is the beginning of his strength.' Elsewhere in the Torah Israel (the Israelites) are called by God 'my son, my firstborn son'. And when God punished the Egyptians he struck down their firstborn sons. To be the firstborn son is an honourable distinction elsewhere in the bible, so perhaps that is why Muslims feel it is worth mentioning.

as for the story of Ishmael, I'm afraid I don't have much time but I can tell you that he was brought as a baby to the valley of Mecca by Hagar and Abraham pbuh, who left them there to establish a settlement but returned regularly and when Ishmael was old enough they rebuilt the Ka'aba together (it had originally been built by Adam pbuh but evidently had disappeared). as stated in the bible, Ishmael was sufficiently close to his father's heart that he was informed of Abraham's pbuh final illness and together with his brother Isaac he buried him. Which fact jars a bit when you read it first because up till then the bible tell us a story of a son cast out and disinherited - I remember the first time I read it as a Christian I was startled and actually thought 'how did he get back into the story? I thought he was long gone!'. Did Abraham have a change of heart? How did he know where to find Ishmael? We are not told.

I hope this answers your question about the firstborn issue, sorry if it's all a bit garbled I'm in a rush!

peace

After reading your links, I fail to see the connection between Ishmael and the Prophet having right over the Holy land -- the article stated very specifically that it had nothing to do with ethnicity, but piety.

I also fail to see how that would be relevant today then. Some Muslims are pious, but not all. The same could be said of some Jews and some Christians. So, if that is the standard, the Holy land should have no political leadership, but a place settled by God's people of all lands and beliefs who truly seek to live righteous lives.

Thank-you for filling in some of the blanks. So, you view that Ishmael should get a double portion. And if one looks at the landmass that Ishmael's descendants are spread over, verses those of Isaac, does it not appear that they have that and more?

Do Muslims, (whether they be descendants of Ishmael or not) view as true or false that God made a special covenant with the son of Abraham through Sarah? Is this significant?

Salaam/peace;


Grace Seeker :After reading your links, I fail to see the connection between Ishmael and the Prophet having right over the Holy land --

In short : Jewish & Christians holy books tell them that First born son has right over dad’s property ( will get double portion than his younger bro ).



It does not matter if the husband loves this son’s mom or not. So , will u pl. tell me why many ( if not most ) Jewish & Christians think Prophet Ismail (p) had no right over there ?



Yes . …may be , that’s the reason Muslims are oppressed in the holy land



We won’t get back our right there till we become good Muslims.



Are u saying that Muslims own more land there than the Jewish people ? If yes , then it’s the first time I heard about it.



I always read/ learnt even from the non-Muslim sources that Zionists are grabbing land there from Muslims.









I don’t think there is any such verse in holy Quran. Normally Muslims respect all Prophets ( pbut ) including Prophet Isaac / Izak (pbuh).

Salaam/peace;


Israel And Arabs : Conflict or Conciliation?

--late Ahmed Deedat


I have read the book ...did not see the video ..supposed to be interesting.

The Jews have been colonising arab land and brain washing the Christian world by telling them that God promised this land for us.


This lecture is made to clarify most points of views on this topic.

http://www.archive.org/details/IPCII...orConciliation

another link:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmpLj...ew%3Btopicseen



comments of viewers:


SLAUGHTERING PALESTINIANS AT A RATIO OF "8 to 1" AND THEN CLAIMING YOU ARE THE VICTIM` OF TERRORISM AND ANTI~SEMITISM IS SIMPLY LAUGHABLE BY ANY RATIONAL, LOGIC, RELIGION, OR CREED!


NO EXCUSES` ARE CREDIBLE` FOR THESE LEVELS OF TERRORISM.

NOT EVEN THE JEWISH HOLY TORAH ALLOWS KILL~ING BEYOND AN EYE FOR AN EYE!

The Christian understanding (ask Rav if this is also the Jewish understanding) is that in this case God promised to Abraham that he would blessing him, not just with a son (Ishmael, his son through Hagar is no less Abraham's son than Isaac), but that he would bless him with a son through Sarah. Ishmael is not Sarah's son and so cannot inherit what was promised to Abraham's son that God was going to give him through Sarah.

Ishmael may be entitled to the right of the first born, but this cannot negate what God promised to Sarah's son.





I read the Zionists are doing this too. What I was saying is not that Zionists are treating Palestinians equitably. (Aren't Palestinians descendants of the Phoenicians, not Arabs anyway?) But I was saying that the descendants of Ishmael (aren't these the Arab people) possess land in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan, the Emirates, Kuwait, Lybia, and elsewhere. This is a much greater total landmass than the descendants of Isaac possess in Israel. (And as we value it in today's economy, the wealth of Arab lands is far greater than the wealth of Jewish lands as well.)

Salaam/peace;

So God contradicts Himself in OT Deut
21 : 16 ?




The Biggest joke in Israel


If u ask any Jew in Israel , Who gave u
Palestine ? ...............without the slightest hesitation every Jew will reply God .

........ But over 75% of the Israeli Jews if questioned , Do u believe in God ? " they immediately respond with NO .

Yet these atheist & agnostic Jews falsely use God's name for their usurpation of the land of the Palestinians.

( few lines from the book : Arab & Israel.....by late Deedat )


So ???????? Does it mean Muslims can't have their due share in Jerusalem ???

Jews now live in USA , Europe .....if u count those lands ...then not sure who posses bigger land but ........i don't think holy land consists of Kuwait , Lybia , Yemen , USA etc.

should a believer denies the right of Prophet Ismail (p) in the holy land just because his mom was once a slave ?

This is correct, Allah made a special covenant with Ibrahim (Alaihi salaam) and his descendants:

And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." (2:124)

However, as you may well know, the covenants and laws which Allah made with the past nations have all been abrogated with the revelation of the Holy Quran and the coming of the final prophet Muhammad (Alaihi salaatu wa salaam). Now the final covenant is to believe in Allah and His Messenger. Regarding the holy land of Jerusalem, it has been promised to the Muslims, and we alone have the divine right to own it:

And He made you inherit their land and their houses and their wealth, and also a land on which you have not yet set foot. And Allah has power over all things. (33:27)

Salaamualaikum Brother... Peace be with you and your family.


(Seek and you shall find, Ask and it shall be given, Knock and the doors shall be openned)

Clearly, the Muslims were given the revelation and the knowledge of the Truth, and the best Proof or Evidence is the Qur'an....

May Allah guide you in your journey to find the Truth...

by the way, congratulations... you already made the first step.

Salaam/Hello

Well I was a Catholic until recently...daddy was a muslim and at around 20 or so and im now 24 I became a muslim...well all our fam did...anyway...i was a real catholic as in...nothing u cood tell me wood i believe alwayz had an answer bla bla.. however I decided for once to listen...and be very open minded...as I alreadi knew thingz in the catholic religion didnt quite add up...the trininty...the hail mary where mary is the mother of God...priests and holy powerz and the order which the world was made...and then the scientific stuff thatz in the Quran...and even in the bible it said that a book wood be sent in a foreign tongue...in one nite..i was converted...i coodnt be miss high horse no more....the Quran made too much sense...evn tho i had onli read a few quotez and some paragrapghs in books here and there...

The main difference is that there is no trinity...therez no mother of God..which is the most important...Jesus or no other prophet do we pray to...itz just God...which is sumthing in catholism I didnt quite dig....praying to Jesus for that...St Thingy for that and Saint thingy for this.... Im not disrespectin it...but it was too all over the place...and being told that we just have to believe..blind faith....

TAKEZ A BREATH

but even the likez of the scientific thingz...which have beent he turnin point for a lot of scientistz and doctorz...coz they can simply tell that them sorta thingz...just wernt heard of..not tryna convert ya...just telln ya me stuff!!

salaam..i thing iv gone on a bit here..il regret me post when i re read..lol..but i never turn bak!

bye

If you are talking about a believer in the Hebrew scriptures, then the answer is YES. Because your Prophet Ismail was not promised any of the holy land in the Hebrew bible. But it wasn't because his mom was once a slave. That I don't think is relevant. It is because his mom was not Sarah. If Hagar had been a queen it would not change what God said to Abaraham in the Hebrew scriptures: Now, I know you are familiar with this passage. In fact I think you have referred to it before to highlight the important place that Ishmael has. And you are right to highlight that God does not turn his back on Ishmael, even if Sarah does. But the key verse in terms of God's promise to Abraham is found here: For those who believe that the biblical record is sufficient justification for determining who should be the inheritor of Israel, this verse is all that they need. Birthright means nothing when stacked up against just this one single verse. I'm not saying that I accept it as valid justification, but if I was a Muslim, I certainly wouldn't try to make an argument with a Jew based on the fact that Ishmael should have the birthright as firstborn. That card is g