Hey,

As I mentioned before it depends on who you are speaking of, you as a Christian might claim to hate the sin and love the sinner but do you love satan? If you believe that there is a being called the devil/lucifer or anything who willingly opposes God do you love him? Can someone you love be an enemy? Do you also mean that you love someone more than God loves them? Because God will punish some people who sin.

Of course we are all sinners but there are different types of sinners, some who sin out of weakness for example and some out of arrogance, obviously they are different in station with regardst to love.

Also with regards to your not understanding the punishment, sometimes the punishment may be expiation, so through it they are forgiven in the next world?

EDIT:Thought I'd add this video didnt know whether I should but anyways here it goes:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5oVkHM...eature=related

I dont know if what the brother is saying is coveyed fully in those clips.

Greetings Al Habeshi

You raise some very interesting points.
Since we are in the 'Learn about Islam' section here, I am reluctant to enter into a discussion about Christianity.
Better to take that into the 'Comparative Religions' section. (It would make a great debate there, I am sure)
I merely explained my own understanding of 'Hate the sin, but love the sinner' in my OP to have something to measure the Islamic understanding against.

Thanks for your contributions, all.
This is turning into an interesting discussion. People are bringing very different points of view.

Salaam

All praise to Allaah, may He reward you and increase your knowledge, JazakAllahu Khayr for that excellent post

Hey Glo,

Yes, I only brought the point to you because I find it it helps me understand when someone puts something into 'my' context.

But yes, what I was trying to show is that there are different types of sinners therefore different ways of dealing with them.

Thank you, Al Habeshi

Do you think it is a personal choice to what extend one might find it in oneself to 'love the sinner'?
For example, you might be able to love and forgive somebody who burgled your house, but not somebody who murdered a loved one?

In the Islamic context, is there any specific teaching which instructs Muslims ' 'hate the sin, but not the sinner'?
(Apart from Dr. Tahir Ul Qadri, who I am still trying to find ut about)

It may be that the Islamic interpretation of such a saying is quite different from my own ...

^ Check this post out:

http://www.islamicboard.com/seeking-...tml#post930017

Hi Glo I hope you are well

I'm tempted to contribute to this very interesting thread when I have more time, please bear with me inshaAllah.

and Al Habeshi didn't say ameen and give me the same duaa back. Anon has feelings too u know

Fi aman Allah everyone,

Could it be that we are confusing the terms mercy and love? If I remember correctly, mercy is often spoken of in Islam (Qur'an and hadith), but rarely is "love".
Does one think that Allah loves someone whom He has sentenced to eternal punishment in the Hellfire? We should not focus on the Mercy of Allah to the extent that we forget the Wrath of Allah. In Islam, we have a balance between hope in Allah's Mercy and fear of His Wrath. Yes, I agree with you. A hadith that comes to my mind follows. A woman from Juhaynah came to Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) and she had become pregnant because of adultery. She said: Allah's Apostle, I have done something for which (prescribed punishment) must be imposed upon me, so impose that. Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) called her master and said: Treat her well, and when she gives birth bring her to me. He did accordingly. Then Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) pronounced judgment on her. Her clothes were tied around her and then he gave the order and she was stoned to death. He then prayed over her (dead body). Thereupon Umar said to him: Allah's Apostle, you offer prayer for her although she had committed adultery! Thereupon he said: She has made such a repentance that if it were to be divided among seventy men of Medina, it would be enough. Have you found any repentance better than that she sacrificed her life for Allah, the Majestic? (Muslim 792)

I think there are boundaries, which are not our personal choice, but within those boundaries we choose how much to love.

For example, we may have the boundary of 1(hate)-10(love) that boundary is imposed on us, and we have the choice of what is in that boundary, if that makes sense. SO we may choose anything between one and ten but we cant choose 11.

I dont know, I dont have a clue if these words even occur in Islamic Teachings. I have not heard them. If they do, then we also have to understand what type of love or hate it should be because that can make all the difference.

I read your links, sis, but they didn't make much sense (Perhaps I am a bit dim today ... I also have to confess that I haven't really have enough peace and quiet at the moment to read them thoroughly. I will persevere though ...)

Thank you anon. I am sure that Al Habeshi will make du'a for you.
Here is your chance to put aside your hurt feelings and be forgiving yourself!

Looking forward to your contributions.

you are welcome glo, and anon is not hurt at all. Anon knows that when you give someone a good duaa the angels give same duaa back to you!

I think you've misunderstood me akhi.

He did say Ameen, and Wa Iyyak

Hi Glow,

Here is [excerpts of] an article in which an Imam explains how we should deal with sinners [non-Muslim sinners to be more precise] in terms of loving them, and in the process he explains that we only hate the sin and not the sinner, so this may include an insight to the answer your looking for :

Islam is a religion of mercy, tolerance and moderation. It teaches its followers to be moderate in all fields and walks of life, in aspects of worship, in dealing with others and in interaction with members of other faiths. Being extreme in one way or another would entail going against the pristine teachings of Allah Most High and His beloved Messenger (Allah bless him & give him peace).

...neither does Islam teach its followers to have hatred for fellow human beings even if they be from another faith. The reality is that Islam teaches moderation. It allows Muslims to have a good relationship with non-Muslims but to a certain limit.

...The beloved Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), who was sent as a mercy for the whole of mankind, demonstrated such kindness, compassion, generosity and politeness towards non-Muslims that it is difficult to find similar examples in history.

When Makka al-Mukarrama was in the grip of famine, he personally went out to help his enemies who had made him leave his home town. At the conquest of Makka, all his enemies came under his power and control, yet he set them all free saying that not only are you being given amnesty today but rather you are also forgiven for what you have done in the past. When non-Muslim prisoners of war were presented before him, he treated them with such kindness and tenderness as one would treat his own children. His enemies inflicted upon him all sorts of injuries and pain but he never raised his hand in revenge neither did he wish ill for them, rather he would pray for their guidance. A delegation from the tribe of Banu Thaqifa (who had yet not accepted Islam) came to visit him, and was given the honour of staying in the Mosque of the Prophet, a place regarded by Muslims to be the most sacred of places. (See: Ma’arif al-Qur’an, 2/51)

Finally, one should always remember that our love, hate, respect and dislike relate to actions and not the person committing these actions. Thus, we dislike the act of disbelief (kufr) but we do not hate non-Muslims as they are also the creation of Allah, hence non-Muslims deserve the same rights as Muslims. May Allah Most High give us the ability to live a life that is in accordance with His and His beloved Messenger’s (Allah bless him & give him peace) pleasure, Ameen.

ref: http://daruliftaa.com/question.asp?t...nID=q-09004611

Hope that helps

Peace.

The reason why one should "Judge the sin, not the sinner". We cannot judge other people for the following reasons:

* We don't have the right (permission)
* We don't have the responsibility (it is not our job, nor is it expected from us)
* We don't have the power (to enforce judgment of a person in a correct manner, a judgment without enforcing is meaningless)
* We don't have the ability (to judge a person by pure standards, to weigh of the total of good and bad acts a person has done)
* We don't have the insight (we can't be certain about what the intention, background of a person was)

The reason why not to hate the sinner, and only the sin:
First of all; one shouldn't hate something/someone when it is not for the sake of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala). Secondly, we know that Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) hates sin, but he doesn't hate every person that has committed a sin (if not he would hate everybody). And since we cannot judge a person, we don't know who is hated by Allah (subhana wa ta'ala). In fact in many hadeeth the prophet (peace be upon him) told us about people that were considered sinners by society, but in the end will be forgiven by Allah (subhana wa ta'ala). So when you hate a sinner, it could be that you hate someone who is loved by Allah subhana wa ta'ala.

Ps: this is actually the same thing as you'll find in western law. As example, a person who is on trial for racism cannot be convicted for being a racist (he cannot be convicted merely on the basis that the jury indeed establishes that he holds racial views and opinions), but he can be convicted of committing racism or spreading racism. So he is on trial for his actions, not for who he is.