Greetings justahumane

Thank you for your kind words.
Good to see we have reached an agreement.

The laws on apostasy have been explained here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...-apostasy.html (Islam and Apostasy)

I understand.

Truth_Seeker,
As for your question,
If someone robs or murders or rapes, that is not a mistake. That is a crime. The punishment for Hiraabah (armed robbery) is reflective of the magnitude of the crime, and varies accordingly.

Rehabilitation is also part of the Shari'ah law. In every verse prescribing a criminal punishment in the Qur'an, it also mentions "except those who repent" before they fall into the criminal process.

This is a misconception which has been clarified in great detail here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/depth-is...ape-islam.html
In particular, these posts:
http://www.islamicboard.com/130000-post18.html (What is the ruling on the crime of rape in Islam?)
http://www.islamicboard.com/130001-post19.html (What is the ruling on the crime of rape in Islam?)

jazakallah khair for reply

Thanx for the links, very helpful

Can you plz explain what you mean by rehab? Is this after his hands have been chopped off? What is his role in society now, as he has become a burden on society now
also regarding people who repent, how do u know they are sincere? Is this also the case with rape since you said every case prescribing criminal punishment. How do you know he's not lieing and getting off easy

No, there is no reason why he becomes a burden to society. He may have a disability, but that doesn't make him a burden to society, and he is especially lucky because his crime has been expiated in this life so he will not be punished in the next life.
The societal laws are not meant to evaluate a person's personal relationship with God, they are meant to protect society and establish justice.
Part of the repentance is to seek forgiveness of the person you have wronged (4th condition).

Masha'Allah i loved reading this thread, especially Brother Ansar's posts, there were very informative as well as educating Im all for an islamic state and shariah laws being implemented with full accruacy and strict following of each and every rule...Insha'Allah soon we'll have this, it will mean justice for everyone Muslims and non-Muslims, Everyone will see the benefit from Shariah laws in society, even the ones who opposed it from the beginning.

ALLAHU AKBAR!

Wait a minute, something just crossed my mind, what about that particular Hadith that says the blood of a muslim can only be spilt for murder, adultery or apostasy, not in those exact words but you know the deal.

Hmmm. Now that is rather worrisome to be honest. Not necessarily the capital punishment for murder part, which is hotly debated, but definitely the adultery and apostasy part.

According to most Western notions of jurisprudence, a punishment should not exceed the crime, thus, physically harming someone for a strictly moral, or civil offense such as adultery would be deemed unjust in most all modern non-Islamic legal codes. Also, with the separation of church and state, the definition of apostasy as a punishable offense has likewise been essentially abandoned.

The consensus in the international opinion seems to be rather clearly shown by the fact that, currently, Turkey is being argued by some Europeans to be ineligible to join the EU on the sole basis that it retains the death penalty for capital offenses. To say nothing of the opinion of the EU about the drawing of blood for such a redeemable offense as adultery or apostasy.

Hi Ulysses.


Realise that if a person commit's treason within the US - the penalty is death. Similarly, in islaam - if a person commit's treason, the penalty is death. That's only from my understanding, and Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.

Always quote the hadith itself if you want an answer, not your recollections of what it said.

I do find certain things worrisome about your post. Like the fact that you passed judgement on Hijrah's vague recollections and though he did not cite the Islamic text in question you immediately presumed it an accurate statement of Islamic law. The accuracy of his recollection aside, I felt it pertinent to mention that such a methodology of absorbing every bit of rumors and hearsay, without any critical analysis or supplementary research, will inevitably create problems for you.
This is the second part of your post that is 'worrisome'. Despite your presumptous attitude in passing judgement on a complex system of jurisprudence, you are clearly devoid of even a basic understanding of the principles of Islamic penal law, going to the most elementary distinction of Hudûd and Ta'âzir punishments. I would be more than willing to explicate these matters for you, but if you truly wish to learn about these matters of Sharî'ah, then it is most conducive to your learning that you adopt the attitude of a learner.

Having said that, let me now provide you with a brief explanation on the conditions for the Hadd punishment for zina (adultery) in Islam. One of the aims of the Islamic state is the protection and preservation of society from harm. The Islamic state is not aimed at monitoring the religious commitment of its citizens, rather it aims to ensure that corruption does not spread in society. The punishment for adultery requires 4 individual witnesses. There is a purpose for this massive burden of evidence. As Shaykh Abdul-Wahhab At-Turayri, former Professor at Al-Imam Univeristy [Riyadh, Saudi Arabia], writes:

The punishments for fornication and adultery are designed more to protect society from the open practice of licentious sexual behavior than they are designed to punish people.

It is nearly impossible to get a conviction for adultery except in a case where it is carried out in public for all eyes to see. With this threat of severe punishment, people will keep their evil deeds concealed and society as a whole will be protected.

So if someone commits a sin in private, they will be held accountable before God for that sin. But the function of the Islamic state, in terms of penal law, is to protect the society from harm. If people practice immoral deeds publicly then they are not only sinning themselves, but they are harming the society by spreading their immorality, and it is the latter action that requires the intervention of the state.

To cut a long story short, I will just refer you to the response on this one:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#28

Regards

You are reffering to this hadith


One of the first hadith i memorized:wub:

my question is, how would homoseuxals be treate din an islamic society?

someone please go into detail about this.. and the punishment, and so forth. and does it apply to non muslims?

thanks!

Hello Thirdwatch,
Thanks for your question.

In order to deal with this question, we need a quick recap on the function of the Islamic state.

The Role of the Islamic State in Protecting the Society

The Islamic state preserves both the security and morality of its society. At the same time it is not there to police the personal religious commitment of individuals before God. It is God alone who will deal with those who sinned against Him and did not fulfill their obligations. If someone skips his prayers in private, or violates his fast, or drinks alcohol hidden away from society, it is of no concern to the state so long as it is not affecting the society. God alone will punish the perpetrator of such sins. But if someone's sins enter into the public domain then it is obligatory for the state to step in and prevent the spread of sin and this is where people are compelled to abide by the laws. This is why a person has the opportunity to repent before their sin becomes public but if it comes before the state the punishment is given to function as both deterrence and denunciation of the sin so as to prevent it from spreading.

So the state doesn't care about what they do in private so long as they are not harming society physically or morally. For instance, if we look at punishments for sexual offences like adultery and fornication, we find that these offences have an extremely high burden of proof attached to them - that is four seperate witnesses to the act of penetration. As Shaykh Abdul-Wahhab At-Turayri, former Professor at Al-Imam Univeristy [Riyadh, Saudi Arabia], writes:

The punishments for fornication and adultery are designed more to protect society from the open practice of licentious sexual behavior than they are designed to punish people.

It is nearly impossible to get a conviction for adultery except in a case where it is carried out in public for all eyes to see. With this threat of severe punishment, people will keep their evil deeds concealed and society as a whole will be protected.

So if someone commits a sin in private, they will be held accountable before God for that sin. But the function of the Islamic state, in terms of penal law, is to protect the society from harm. If people practice immoral deeds publicly then they are not only sinning themselves, but they are harming the society by spreading their immorality, and it is the latter action that requires the intervention of the state.

Homosexuality

Coming to the issue of homosexuality, then if someone has homosexual inclinations, there is no punishment or even sin upon them so long as they do not act upon it [*]. They are to be assisted and helped to cope with their inclinations so that they may overcome them or surpress them (the reality of which it is, is something to be determined by scientific inquiry). If such an invidual does commit homosexual acts privately, then they will not be punished in light of what we have mentioned earlier about the Islamic state; rather, they are encouraged to repent before Allah and seek to change their ways from this lifestyle which is harmful to themselves spiritually, socially, physically and mentally.

If however the act does become public and is performed in such an openly licentious manner as to be witnessed by four people, then the Islamic state is obligated to carry out a punishment to prevent the spread of such blatant immorality. If the licentious offenders are gays then it is execution, if they are lesbians the punishment is ta'zîr (discretionary) according to what the judge deems appropriate. Again, these punishments are only in the event of public displays of sodomy.

I hope this answers your question.
And Allah knows best.

Note to all members: this thread is not for discussion on the nature of homosexuality or whether it is moral/immoral etc. These issues have been discussed at length in the thread entitled "being Gay". The current thread is only for explication of Islamic laws.

Regards

ok thanks, and i will not try to make this another gay debate lol.

now one other question..

let's say for some reason i lived in saudi arabia, and i was caught having gay sex.. if irepented, would i still be executed or punished for it?

also, let's say i had a boyfriend.. but we didn't have gay sex.. would i still get in trouble for that?

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah writes:

If he truly repents to Allah, Allah will accept his repentance, and he does not need to confess his sin to anyone so that the hadd punishment would be carried out on him. (Majmoo’ al-Fataawaa, part 34, p. 180)

The punishment would be obligated if the act was witnessed publicly and became known to the public since the society must be protected from the spread of immorality so the punishment serves as both deterrence and denunciation of the action. If the person punished had repented that is to their benefit and they will have saved themselves from the punishment in the Hereafter, but the punishment in society must still be given in order to protect the society.
You wouldn't get the prescribed punishment since you are not commiting the offence but you would not be permitted to engage in such behavior. And lesser discretionary punishments could be applied for immoral acts that do not reach the level of public acts of sodomy. Muslims are commanded to call people away from such lifestyles in a peaceful wise manner with beautiful preaching.

Peace.

What if a kaffir was to do it