i find this very problematical as well. the qur'an makes it very clear that punishment is by god.
this problem re: execution for apostates comes from the hadith, which most muslims hold as either equally important or of next-in-line of importance to the qur'an.

Peace

I do think it is legitimate to put a question back to the questioner, when what they are questioning and arguing against is actually found much less ambiguously in their own scriptures. Death for apostasy is not found in the qur'an. It is, however, found in the bible, commanded by God. I note that you believe God is capable of commanding something immoral. For a certainty many people would have been stoned to death because of what was written in the old testament, and I don't think that is irrelevant to this thread.

There is a difference of opinion on this and many other issues within Islam. I guess that is all you need to know. If you think that those Muslims who believe that apostates should be executed by the (Islamic) state are wicked and immoral - well that's your perogative. If you are trying to say that Islam is a wicked and cruel religion because of this issue, you are entitled to your opinion. It sounds to me like that is what you are out to prove (perhaps just to yourself) and the fact that not all Muslims believe Islam automatically demands the death penalty for apostasy just doesn't interest you. there are plenty of websites out there which support this point of view but I notice you don't bother with them.

peace


.

No, they probably do it because they find it hypocritically for a Christian to criticize Islam for something that was ordered by God in their own bible!

But what I don't understand is how you can consider something ordained by God as being immoral?

Greetings, Malaikah

You will find my answer to this in the same post in the same thread I posted earlier (Did you follow the link and read it?)
Peace

yes...

Greetings,
But you've just recommended it!

Any club that executes members who leave it is ethically wrong - there are no two ways around that. Whether Islam does in fact prescribe this punishment is obviously a matter that elicits different opinions from different Muslims. Like so much else in the religion, it is unclear, and can be interpreted in different ways.

Peace

But then, you would be the first on the barricades, when a Christian like to convert to Islam, but his family would kill him for that. pffffff....

I think the issue is not about whether the Hadith do recommend punishment for apostates, it is quite clear that they do, but whether punishment for apostates is applicable in the current context. At the birth of Islam, the Prophet (peace be upon him) ruled a fragile city-state community that was at risk both from extrenal attack from the Makkans and their allies, but also from internal attack by the Jewish tribes and others who opposed the rule of the Prophet (peace be upon him). As said before, one attack of those who were trying to destroy Islam from the inside would be to enter Islam and then leave it, in order to lower Muslim moral, and breaking the goverment. So, in this context, execution of apostates would have been a necessary action to discourage this tresonous behaviour. In the Second World War, if a British citizen did a similar thing for similar reasons (obviously not false conversion to Christianity as this was not really an important factor), imprisonment or deportation would follow as a necessary action. And if Britain had actually been invaded, no doubt the punishment would be more severe.

The question is, was the commandment intended for these circumstances alone or for the whole of time? On one hand, there is no mention of the law being changed or removed in the hadith, but on the other hand, rules on for example war-captives and slavery are not corrected but are usually regarded today as being intended for Medieval Arabia rather than for all time.

Hi

Yeh, I read that post, but it doesn't really answer my question.

I understand that Christianity doesn't have the death penalty for apostates, but, the question I am asking is that at one stage, God did ordain that law (in the OT), and since you believe Jesus is God, that means Jesus commanded that apostates should be killed.

I'm not asking whether you would do it. I know you're not meant to do it according to your religion, but how do you feel about the fact that God at one stage ordained it?

you are right jamafg - the qur'an is extremely clear on the subject.
however, the hadiths say something different.

Can you please provide the verse for that? It is very well known in Islam that self defense is not the only justification for killing because Islamic law has the death sentence for certain crimes such as murder, adultery and, depending on the opinion you follow, apostasy.


I don't think the answer is that simple. What is your proof for this?

Because there is a lot of evidence that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh commanded that apostates receive the death penalty.

Hi snakelegs. Unless you can find me a verse that nicely says that the apostate is not to be killed, then I have to disagree that the Quran makes it clear not to kill apostates.

For example, people will often use the verse that there is no compulsion in religion as proof; but this verse means no compulsion in entering Islam, not leaving Islam.

The hadiths do not say something different- they help us understand what the Quran means. The authentic hadith and Quran never contradict each other; the contradiction only exists in the mind of a person because he or she doesn't understand what is going on.

took me a while to scrounge these up - i think there are more also, but here are a few that seem very clear to me. i fail to see how the hadith explain what the qur'an means in these verses.
if you argument goes that the qur'an does not say not to kill the apostate, i agree. but these verses make it clear that it is god who will do the punishing.
don't you think on something as important as capital punishment for apostasy, god would have ordered in in the qur'an?
of course, it is irrelevant what i think - after all, i don't make the shariah -just wanted to clarify my thinking as this is something that bothers me in islam.

i am just giving pickthall because that is the translation i read most recently:
taken from this site:
http://www.quranicrealm.com/quran.php?q=2

2:217
Pickthal: They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.

3:90
Pickthal: Lo! those who disbelieve after their (profession of) belief, and afterward grow violent in disbelief: their repentance will not be accepted. And such are those who are astray.

4:137
Pickthal: Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way.

Thanks for the effort! These verses are pretty straight forward, yes.

All that the verses are saying is that they will be punished in the next life and that Allah will not forgive them. That does not imply that there will be no punishment in this life as well, nor does it specify that it is the only punishment they will receive.

I really don't see at all how these are giving a different message than the hadiths.