Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

you haven't rambled on and I don't want to derange the thread or waste too much time on this than needs be...
the proposed mechanism for evolution is as you mention indeed, or proposed to be through several mutations (frame shift, nonsense, missense, silent, acrocentric breaks in DNA or even jumping genes) the problem is in fact none of those mutations in documented science have conferred speciation-- in fact if you google any let's take any random example, say the translocation of the Philadelphia chromosome for instance t(9;22)(q34;q11). and you'll find that we end up with chronic myelogenous leukemia in lieu of mammoth to elephant.. just do that for each of the proposed mechanisms and see what you get..
also in terms of natural selection, research such things as trinucleotide repeat expansion disorders
Huntington Disease
Spinobulbar Muscular Atrophy
Spinocerebellar Ataxias (SCA types 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, and 17)
Dentatorubro-Pallidoluysian Atrophy
Non-polyglutamine Disorders
Fragile X Syndrome
Fragile XE Mental Retardation
Friedreich Ataxia (
Myotonic Dystrophy (DM, not MD)
Spinocerebellar Ataxias (

to name a few and you'll find that the least favorable traits are chosen and get successively worst with each generation.. thus, those of us who have a problem with some aspects of evolution theory, are skeptical from known science and observation rather than religious fervor!

Don't mean to get too off topic either, but that's really interesting. I'll definitely research these things (when I get the time!)

Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz

So what you are saying is that God created all of this??

Maybe the aliens from planet X..
I am stultified by your questions at times..
be that as it may, whether or not you believe God did it, is a personal choice.. You should exhaust the possibilities and share your findings on age old questions

Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

Maybe the aliens from planet X..
I am stultified by your questions at times..
be that as it may, whether or not you believe God did it, is a personal choice.. You should exhaust the possibilities and share your findings on age old questions

i do belive that there is only one god and that is allah.

Sorry about my questions brother i am just having trouble bleiving that a plant can grow on its own without and nutirents a a soil free rock such as a moraine.

why must there be a reterat of a glacier to make this possible?

Was there seeds on the morine, did the glacier depsoit seeds or something?

is there a need for a god for all this to happen?

sorry for these questions, i just want to strengthen my iman

someone please answer

Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz

i do belive that there is only one god and that is allah.

Sorry about my questions brother i am just having trouble bleiving that a plant can grow on its own without and nutirents a a soil free rock such as a moraine.

for starters I am a sister

I have already given you an example how spores can live in honey, why is it difficult to imagine that they live on glacier or in bat caves undisturbed for millions of yrs?

why must there be a reterat of a glacier to make this possible?

Was there seeds on the morine, did the glacier depsoit seeds or something?

I don't know why glaciers are important for this, but as I have given you an example that there are thermopilic organisms surviving only in extreme heat or extreme acid, there must be others with opposite traits needing extreme cold.. I really don't know.. I have a general concept and I apply it, but again I am not a botanist!

bro faisal, lets just look at the concept of living organisms. The main one being the living cell. This is made up of proteins which are made up of amino acids, and i'm not sure - maybe you're aware that atheists say this cell came to life by chance by non living matter.


But let's look at the possibility of a protein forming on this earth by chance;

If there really was organic living cells on the planet at one time, there was no Ozone layer to protect them. So the cells would be bombarded with UV rays which would destroy the living cells. So the chance would be extremely low [it would be the fraction of 1 over 10, to the power 300 - 300 zeros after it)] whereas in mathematics, 1 over 10 to the power 50 (50 zeros after it) is an impossible probability.

So the probability of a cell coming to life by non life is more impossible than impossible itself! [Let alone the possibility of it surviving and forming into other more complex organisms for such a long time period without being destroyed on a chaotic planet (the earth had alot of volcanic eruptions and chemical reactions [causing destruction] at that time)!]

(Muslims vs Atheists [our foundations in debate])
http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/134272121-muslims-vs-atheists-our-foundations-debate-2.html#post1050839

That's just one example of how strong the arguments of the atheists really are. So always question their validity before taking their statements as fact.

Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz

is there a need for a god for all this to happen?

sorry for these questions, i just want to strengthen my iman

Yes there is a need for God for all of this.. Life can only be granted through God-- you may think it is insignificant but it is not.. all the gears in the clock big or small need to work together for it to be functional and working!

lol thank you SISTER, this has been very informative you have increased my iman and i thank you for that.

i now realise that therte were seeds in the glacier that when depsoted casued the seeds to pop out and germinate.
i need to give you some rep, errr how do i do that again?
W.Sallams

Originally Posted by - Qatada -

bro faisal, lets just look at the concept of living organisms. The main one being the living cell. This is made up of proteins which are made up of amino acids, and i'm not sure - maybe you're aware that atheists say this cell came to life by chance by non living matter.


But let's look at the possibility of a protein forming on this earth by chance;

If there really was organic living cells on the planet at one time, there was no Ozone layer to protect them. So the cells would be bombarded with UV rays which would destroy the living cells. So the chance would be extremely low [it would be the fraction of 1 over 10, to the power 300 - 300 zeros after it)] whereas in mathematics, 1 over 10 to the power 50 (50 zeros after it) is an impossible probability.

So the probability of a cell coming to life by non life is more impossible than impossible itself! [Let alone the possibility of it surviving and forming into other more complex organisms for such a long time period without being destroyed on a chaotic planet (the earth had alot of volcanic eruptions and chemical reactions [causing destruction] at that time)!]

(Muslims vs Atheists [our foundations in debate])
http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/134272121-muslims-vs-atheists-our-foundations-debate-2.html#post1050839

That's just one example of how strong the arguments of the atheists really are. So always question their validity before taking their statements as fact.

wouldnt the plants evolve though?

and werent there clees before us, for e.g. dinosours, how did they survive?

lol, I'm not sure how glaciers came into this either.

Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim

lol, I'm not sure how glaciers came into this either.

ithink when the glaciers melted they lft begind gravel depsotes such as moraines and the morains probbaly contined seeds which casued them to germinate when exposed to the sunlight

Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz

wouldnt the plants evolve though?

Plants and animals can evolve to an extent, but the idea of all species coming from one common ancestor is false, and even evolutionists cannot prove any of this.

I'll explain a simple point which evolutionists can't totally address with ease; If so much animals evolved, some got extinct - these animals could have been like half fish, half bird - so why don't we find their fossils now? Surely they got extinct so there should have been quite a few thousand atleast. Since it took them stages for that fish to become a bird etc. So where have they vanished? Did ALL them fossils vanish totally from the face of the earth, or maybe it just never happened?



There's two types of evolution;

Micro Evolution (the small evolution) doesn't contradict Islamic teachings. For example, if there are 2 giraffes - 1 with a small neck and 1 with a long neck - its more likely the long necked one will survive if there are taller trees. So this rule of survival does not contradict Islam, so long as you believe that it is a pattern in Allah's creation. Meaning - the taller giraffe's descendants are more likely to survive [since they will be taller] compared to the shorter necked species.



Macro Evolution (the big evolution [where species become from 'one to the other'] is discussed here:

http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/evolution.htm


He says:

To making comparisons, some try to enter the fossil record as proof for common descent, the argument goes, that fossils show up in certain layers of ground which in term are linked to certain eras in time. If you then make a timetable of which time the fossilized creatures lived in, it matches the timetable that common descent proposes. Well first of all, that's hardly any proof, all it does is proof which creatures lived at which time, it doesn't proof which evolved into which. Creationists might just as well claim that this proves when certain animals were created. The fossil record does not favor common descent over creation. In fact quite the opposite can be said, the fossil has many issues that reflect bad on common descent. Like the cambrian explosion. and era where there's a sudden high concentration of entirely new species, as opposed to the slower pace of other eras. Another problem are the large number of missing links. There are so many proposed intermediate species missing, that some scientists have started suggesting that rather then a slow step by step evolution, there must have been "jumps" to. But that's of course very unlikely. A mutation that carries benefit is in itself unlikely, many mutations at once that carry some benefit is close to impossible. Other than that it needs to be noted that there's a lot of controversy regarding the accuracy of dating fossils. I wouldn't go as far as saying that it's all a hoax, but it does need a lot of work. (Muslims vs Atheists [our foundations in debate])

http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/13...ml#post1050831 (Muslims vs Atheists [our foundations in debate])

Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz

lol thank you SISTER, this has been very informative you have increased my iman and i thank you for that.

i now realise that therte were seeds in the glacier that when depsoted casued the seeds to pop out and germinate.
i need to give you some rep, errr how do i do that again?
W.Sallams

I don't need reps.. I want you to understand how science works better since Allah swt favors his scientist servants over the others and for just such reasons.. the wonder of creation..

I recommend you purchase this book to understand better pls because it is such an expansive topic and I can't nor really have the patience to dedicate to it such a great length of time..

You'll really enjoy this book I guarantee

On Growth and Form
By Dr. D'Arcy Thompson

you need to understand that spores have a very hard exterior and extremely resistant to environmental and ecological changes.. but at the same time they are very simple organisms, they don't need much to survive or to thrive..

hope that halps insha'Allah