peace be upon who follow the truth and seek for it:

Originally Posted by Jayda

hola,

what is this thread for... nothing good can come of this...

Iam sorry to said that but .. it's to know the truth that you can't disprove it.
all this crimes happened in the past in the name of christian..
and now you want us to forget .. you want us to believe that your real religion don't ask you to do this horrible things.
in the other side you look to us as terroristic .. why becouse of immoderate minority .. that didn't know any thing about islam.

why do muslims say they do not believe in violence but say horrible things about jews,

please can tell me about this horrible things ..

celebrate what they did to spain and talk about how they want it to happen again? i do not mean this as a counterpunch, but i understand the setting seems this way... i am genuinely afraid of you when you talk about these things because of what you are saying, the things you seem to believe about muslim expansion in spain, and how eager you seem to be for a return of this...

please read my second reply in this thread .. peace

Originally Posted by Muhammad

I think you may have misunderstood what has been said. We do not celebrate any violence that took place in Spain and nor do we wish for violence to occur. It is only the fact that such beautiful Mosques were built by Muslims and then converted for other uses, that some Muslims feel they should be restored for their original purpose. But this does not mean that violence is the means by which it should occur.

hola Muhammad,

gracias for your reply. i think maybe we are talking about different things... i certainly understand muslims longing for the beautiful mosques that they built... i think asking for them back from Spain is inappropriate but we have discussed this elsewhere.

but in that conversation and elsewhere there were people talking about how spain was "taken away" from muslims by God for some reason and that they desire to "have it back" again... i do not understand how muslims can consider the conquest a historic misstep, but then attribute what they did to Gods guidance... it is even more concerning when people talk about wanting spain 'back' because to me it conjures up images of what is happening in palestine and israel... people who do not live there using a historic presence to invade and strip the people living their of their home and culture...

muslims could not possibly ever be welcomed or invited into spain as rulers, and if the historic example is looked at so reverently this could only mean invasion, violence and oppression... things that i am not certain do not have a place in islam, i know many of these things are in the quran, but i do not read the quran as a muslim and do not know how muslims view the context of such events... which is why i rely on muslims to explain islam in practice... but now i see two vastly different minds on this...

but maybe you are saying that when muslims talk about "al andalus" they are meaning only the mosques? i do not exactly understand... i think there is a possibility we are talking about different things...

Dios te bendiga

they were forced to worship in secret... and we have the freedome to worship whenever we pleace...


which of the favors of your lord do you deny?...

Originally Posted by Jayda

hola Muhammad,

gracias for your reply. i think maybe we are talking about different things... i certainly understand muslims longing for the beautiful mosques that they built... i think asking for them back from Spain is inappropriate but we have discussed this elsewhere.

but in that conversation and elsewhere there were people talking about how spain was "taken away" from muslims by God for some reason and that they desire to "have it back" again... i do not understand how muslims can consider the conquest a historic misstep, but then attribute what they did to Gods guidance... it is even more concerning when people talk about wanting spain 'back' because to me it conjures up images of what is happening in palestine and israel... people who do not live there using a historic presence to invade and strip the people living their of their home and culture...

muslims could not possibly ever be welcomed or invited into spain as rulers, and if the historic example is looked at so reverently this could only mean invasion, violence and oppression... things that i am not certain do not have a place in islam, i know many of these things are in the quran, but i do not read the quran as a muslim and do not know how muslims view the context of such events... which is why i rely on muslims to explain islam in practice... but now i see two vastly different minds on this...

but maybe you are saying that when muslims talk about "al andalus" they are meaning only the mosques? i do not exactly understand... i think there is a possibility we are talking about different things...

Dios te bendiga

who needs to conquer it?

there is a massively growing revert community in al andalus and we as muslims dont need to raise a finger in anger to get it back. just keep up the good work of spreading islam to the population there.

Abu Abdullah

To answer your question Jayda, whenever islaam is about to enter any land - the leaders give the rulers of that nation 3 options:

1) Become muslim.

2) Pay Jizya and you will be under the protection of the muslims.

3) If you don't want to accept the above, then fight.

That might seem violent, but lets look at it this way - all the nations of the world would force the people to follow the religion of their ruler.

Therefore if the ruler was christian, the people were forced to follow that religion [like we can see in the story already.] Anyone who was in Iraq/Iran would have to follow Zoroastrianism. Anyone who was in India would have to follow hinduism etc. This happened for many centuries in the world, it was also at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him), and continued for many centuries even after that.


There was a man in Al-Shaam [Greater Syria] who became muslim within the lifetime of the Prophet (peace be upon him), but because he lived in Greater Syria, where the Byzantinian Romans had power, they had him executed because he wasn't following the religion of the ruler (Heraclius.)



When islaam came, it abolished this ideology and because the people were living under oppression anyway, by these rulers who were taking advantage of the people - the people had one of the 3 choices mentioned above.

They could either accept islaam and become brothers and sisters in faith, the muslims would allow them to keep their land and wealth etc.

They could pay jizya [a small tax] which would be used to protect the state and help the needy etc. (the same way the muslims pay zakaah tax aswell.) Which in return would allow the people to keep their land, wealth, their honor and blood would be protected, and if anyone waged war against them - the muslims would fight on their behalf.


Or if the rulers never accepted any of these options, they would fight to lift the other people off oppression. The innocent people who might have wanted to follow another religion, but were too scared to because they were under the threat of being killed by their non muslim ruler. When these evil rulers were killed, the muslims would have authority in the land and allow the people to follow their faith freely, even have their own courts [with the laws according to their scripture.] All for a small tax, which they would be protected under anyway. And this wasn't injustice because muslims payed the (zakaah) tax anyway.



We follow the Qur'an and Sunnah [Prophetic way] according to the understanding of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah, we don't follow the way of the Ummayad Dynasty, because yes they aren't perfect and can do injustice, we don't agree that all that they did was right. But nowhere does it say in islaam that we follow the way of these people, rather we follow the way of the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) who would give the 3 options, if they never accepted within 3 days, they would be fought for the freedom of the innocent people.


Islaam is just, and Allaah loves those who are just. The Ummayads may have treated the people there unjustly, but don't you see now why Allaah removed this from their grasp? It's because they turned away from this justice. When Jesus (peace be upon him) returns back to the earth to slay the anti-christ, he will bring justice back to the lands, and this is why Allaah will allow the blessings of the earth to come out.


Just to add in, islaam didn't simply spread by the sword. If you look in the world right now, the countries with the biggest muslim population are Indonesia, Malaysia etc., yet no muslims went to fight there.



And Allaah Almighty knows best.

brother Fi_Sabilillah
جزاك الله خيراً

well i read somewhere that it was not the government"king fernando 8???" who was responsible for this cruelty rather it was the priests and the crazy queen esabela who was under their influence.....and a top priest "zeminis"or something took a major part in eradicating muslims from spain.anyways this is a well known fact and the cruelty of inquisition against the muslims can never be denied.wassalam

Originally Posted by faizi

well i read somewhere that it was not the government"king fernando 8???" who was responsible for this cruelty rather it was the priests and the crazy queen esabela who was under their influence.....and a top priest "zeminis"or something took a major part in eradicating muslims from spain.anyways this is a well known fact and the cruelty of inquisition against the muslims can never be denied.wassalam

true, but there is no need to be harsh with the christians here who mostly seem to be of the type seeking out the truth not the missionary type.

so just as many christians would travel to muslim spain to study its culture and universities and hospitals and were treated hospitably so we should treat the christians who come here.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

jazakllah for sharing the story

Originally Posted by faizi

well i read somewhere that it was not the government"king fernando 8???" who was responsible for this cruelty rather it was the priests and the crazy queen esabela who was under their influence.....and a top priest "zeminis"or something took a major part in eradicating muslims from spain.anyways this is a well known fact and the cruelty of inquisition against the muslims can never be denied.wassalam

you are right .. but I know that 'king fernando 8' is 'esabela's husband isn't he?

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

true, but there is no need to be harsh with the christians here who mostly seem to be of the type seeking out the truth not the missionary type.
so just as many christians would travel to muslim spain to study its culture and universities and hospitals and were treated hospitably so we should treat the christians who come here

I agree with you brother we should judge on each other religion by it's precepts not by it's follower deed.

.... peace

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

true, but there is no need to be harsh with the christians here who mostly seem to be of the type seeking out the truth not the missionary type.

so just as many christians would travel to muslim spain to study its culture and universities and hospitals and were treated hospitably so we should treat the christians who come here.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

I am not being harsh with the Christians....not with someone else
was just talking about a historical fact.
hope you get it the right way

Originally Posted by mariam.

you are right .. but I know that 'king fernando 8' is 'esabela's husband isn't he?

yes he was...but his mind was governed by esabela's orders...As far as i know he was not so cruel himself..
wassalam