Originally Posted by ranma1/2

I am not denying that with flies we can make antibiotics.
I am saying that you are reading much more into the passage than is actuallly there.

It does not say that you can culture the bacteria and other things on flies and make an antidote. It says just dip the flies in the food and bamb any disease or venom it lay there is now cured.

you are reading into it to much i thinks....

You have failed to provide a concrete objection.

Originally Posted by Philosopher

You have failed to provide a concrete objection.

Yes I have.
I have shown that you have read things into the passages that are not there.

Originally Posted by ranma1/2

Yes I have.
I have shown that you have read things into the passages that are not there.

All you have done is waste space with your incessant diatribe.

Originally Posted by ranma1/2

I am not denying that with flies we can make antibiotics.
I am saying that you are reading much more into the passage than is actuallly there.

It does not say that you can culture the bacteria and other things on flies and make an antidote. It says just dip the flies in the food and bamb any disease or venom it lay there is now cured.

you are reading into it to much i thinks....

Are you some kinda dumb schmuck or is it a hobby to twist statements and put words into people's speech?

There will be no discussion until you read the thread again then post a question minus the lies

Originally Posted by NoName55

Are you some kinda dumb schmuck or is it a hobby to twist statements and put words into people's speech?

There will be no discussion until you read the thread again then post a question minus the lies

please be polite. I am not twisting statements, rather i am pointing out the twisting of statements.

Now please be civil. I have not been rude to you and i expect the same.

Originally Posted by ranma1/2

please be polite. I am not twisting statements, rather i am pointing out the twisting of statements.

Now please be civil. I have not been rude to you and i expect the same.

You havent pointed anything noteworthy. You are indeed twisting the facts stated and have posted nothing but intellectually unethical and deceptive waffles.

Prophet Mohummed says "If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote. "


now how am i reading or twisting these words?

The prophet is said to have said that if a fly falls into a food or drink you should immerse it completely.

and he then says that under onewing is venom and one the antidote.

Is this true? No it is not.
Scientific prediction? No.

If you care to explain how I am twisting the words please do. But I am not lying as you have accused me of doing. I am just pointing out the flaws in your arguments and logic.

Originally Posted by ranma1/2

Prophet Mohummed says "If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote. "


now how am i reading or twisting these words?

The prophet is said to have said that if a fly falls into a food or drink you should immerse it completely.

and he then says that under onewing is venom and one the antidote.

Is this true? No it is not.
Scientific prediction? No.

If you care to explain how I am twisting the words please do. But I am not lying as you have accused me of doing. I am just pointing out the flaws in your arguments and logic.

I''ll elucidate the concept later, i need to go to sleep now!

Good Night!

Originally Posted by ranma1/2

Prophet Mohummed says "If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote. "


now how am i reading or twisting these words?

The prophet is said to have said that if a fly falls into a food or drink you should immerse it completely.

and he then says that under onewing is venom and one the antidote.

Is this true? No it is not.
Scientific prediction? No.

If you care to explain how I am twisting the words please do. But I am not lying as you have accused me of doing. I am just pointing out the flaws in your arguments and logic.

Recently experiments have been done under supervision which indicate that a fly carries the disease (pathagens) plus the antidote for those organ-isms. Ordinarily when a fly touches a liquid food it infects the liquid with its pathogens, so it must be dipped in order to release also the antidote for those pathogens to act as a counter balance to the pathogens.

its been proven true by science now... that's what this whole thread is about..

Originally Posted by lyesh

Recently experiments have been done under supervision which indicate that a fly carries the disease (pathagens) plus the antidote for those organ-isms. Ordinarily when a fly touches a liquid food it infects the liquid with its pathogens, so it must be dipped in order to release also the antidote for those pathogens to act as a counter balance to the pathogens.

its been proven true by science now... that's what this whole thread is about..

Thankyou for making a good comment. "and not going off on me"
Many creatures carry pathogens and "antidotes"

Now one of my problems with the article isthat the verse says specifically on one wing this and the other that. Which is not true.

The verse would also lead someone to believe that a fly could poison you and in turn cure you. This also isnt true.

Now lets just take the fly idea and put it to more realistic means.

Lets say if you were living back in the days of Muhammad "cool experience if you ask me" and you had many flies infecting your food would his advices work.

Lets say thatthe flies have actually contanimated your food with some sort fo pathogen would taking the flies and dunking them in the food then make the food safe to drink or eat? No it wouldnt.

The same way using a Live attenuated vaccine from the disease-causing organism -- can help mount an immune response in the host receiving it... and yet in contrast in an immuno-compromised person can actually again turn virulent... Unless you have studied this area in depth I suggest you not make any random assumptions and pass them as facts...

Thankyou for making a good comment. "and not going off on me"
Many creatures carry pathogens and "antidotes"

Now one of my problems with the article is that the verse says specifically on one wing this and the other that. Which is not true.

Explain why it's not true please... (btw, its not a verse.. it's a hadith)

The verse would also lead someone to believe that a fly could poison you and in turn cure you. This also isnt true.

why?...

Now lets just take the fly idea and put it to more realistic means.

Lets say if you were living back in the days of Muhammad "cool experience if you ask me" and you had many flies infecting your food would his advices work.

Lets say thatthe flies have actually contanimated your food with some sort fo pathogen would taking the flies and dunking them in the food then make the food safe to drink or eat? No it wouldnt.

yes ofcourse this idea would work... like you already know, we use bacteria for a lot of medicines in the world today. now... we all tell our kids to stay away from it.. lol.. but still some of them are the best cures for our health problems! some bacteria in the world are so useful for our body!

yea so the flies contaminated the food one day.. and we dunked the fly back to food and would it be safe to drink or eat? like u just said no it wouldnt.. i'll just say "YES! IT WOULD!"

Originally Posted by Philosopher

You havent pointed anything noteworthy. You are indeed twisting the facts stated and have posted nothing but intellectually unethical and deceptive waffles.

Without twisting anything he has merely pointed out that, as is the usual with such 'miracles', far more is being read into a passage than is actually there. Not to mention that what doesn't happen to fit it is totally ignored. Were this advice

"If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote."

followed literally, the consequence would be increased typhoid and cholera; more disease not less of it. The interesting new research doesn't change that.

Originally Posted by lyesh

Ordinarily when a fly touches a liquid food it infects the liquid with its pathogens, so it must be dipped in order to release also the antidote for those pathogens to act as a counter balance to the pathogens.

its been proven true by science now...

No, it has not. Please re-read the articles, if only for the sake of your kids. Nobody, anywhere, is saying anything today about dipping flies. The antibiotics are extracted from flies using scientific processes; there is no benefit from just dunking the fly which is just as much a health hazard as it has always been.

Or in other words, while using scientific techniques to extract antibiotics from flies may be smart, dunking them in your food or drink is not. The saying is therefore likely to be either a metaphor, or an old-wives tale from the Prophet's time, not a "miracle".

The fly is now trumpeted but nobody mentions the numerous "medical" references in hadith that are absurd, such as claiming no disease is contagious, that drinking camel urine for medicinal purposes is a good idea or that black cumin seeds can cure anything. It is that selectivity which is "intellectually unethical and deceptive"... or at least it would be if it were a purely scientific matter. It isn't, of course, it's a faith-based matter with a dollop of science that with insufficient care can be confused with the real thing. Seeking agreement is therefore pretty futile, those who 'believe' will see this as a 'proof' just like those equally tenuous 'proofs' related to embryos, the shape of the earth etc, etc, while anybody else will see it as an interesting coincidence at most.

Originally Posted by Trumble

Without twisting anything he has merely pointed out that, as is the usual with such 'miracles', far more is being read into a passage than is actually there. Not to mention that what doesn't happen to fit it is totally ignored. Were this advice



followed literally, the consequence would be increased typhoid and cholera; more disease not less of it. The interesting new research doesn't change that.



No, it has not. Please re-read the articles, if only for the sake of your kids. Nobody, anywhere, is saying anything today about dipping flies. The antibiotics are extracted from flies using scientific processes; there is no benefit from just dunking the fly which is just as much a health hazard as it has always been.

Or in other words, while using scientific techniques to extract antibiotics from flies may be smart, dunking them in your food or drink is not. The saying is therefore likely to be either a metaphor, or an old-wives tale from the Prophet's time, not a "miracle".

The fly is now trumpeted but nobody mentions the numerous "medical" references in hadith that are absurd, such as claiming no disease is contagious, that drinking camel urine for medicinal purposes is a good idea or that black cumin seeds can cure anything. It is that selectivity which is "intellectually unethical and deceptive"... or at least it would be if it were a purely scientific matter. It isn't, of course, it's a faith-based matter with a dollop of science that with insufficient care can be confused with the real thing. Seeking agreement is therefore pretty futile, those who 'believe' will see this as a 'proof' just like those equally tenuous 'proofs' related to embryos, the shape of the earth etc, etc, while anybody else will see it as an interesting coincidence at most.

Thank you

Originally Posted by Trumble

such as claiming no disease is contagious,

Rubbish. That hadith is referring to that fact that no matter how contagious a disease is, if Allah does not wish for a person to catch it, he/she won't.

There are many other hadiths that refer to contagious diseases, such as the prophet forbidding people to leave a city that has a disease spreading through it to prevent it from reaching other places, and also forbidding people from entering places where their is a contagious disease spreading amongst the people.