Saturday 2nd April 2005 @ 10:30am

Venue:

Royal National Hotel
Bedford Way
London
WC1H

Nearest Underground : Russell Square

http://standforislam.org/events/events2.htm

"Hizb ut Tahrir Britain is placing a refreshing and honest alternative before the Muslim community in the UK. We believe that the longer the party political system occupies our time and energy here, the longer we will be denied our full potential. These parties make promises they do not keep. They have policies which fundamentally contradict our values and beliefs. They ask for our votes conditional on doing 'favours' for the community. They try to exploit and divide us into Labour, Liberal and Tory Muslims. Sometimes they place Muslim candidates in front of us, only to betray us.

The alternative is to look what we can do for ourselves, outside the corrupt party political electoral process. How can our community unite and be strong? How can we use our voice to help the oppressed Muslim world be liberated from colonial subservience? How can we solve the drugs and crime crisis amongst the youth? How do we deal with the Islamophobia in society? Can we overcome the fear that government and media are creating about and within the Muslim community?

We are calling for an open and sincere debate on these most important of questions.

www.standforislam.org


TAKEN FROM THE ABOVE WEBSITE NOT MY OWN
inshAllah sounds good

Why can't you stand for "Britain".

The electoral & government bodies you accuse of being "Corrupt" do not use "religion" as it's power base. Unless their is a "christian" lead political party.

"Stand for islam" merely creates seperatism. Why do we still talk of the "Muslim Community" the "Black Community" and not "our community".

Why do you always talk about "Muslim opression" yet you said "Nothing" about Muslims oppressing muslims". Where was your voice when saddam was slaughtering his fellow muslim brothers. When are you going to stop thinking of an "Islamic Community" and help integrate all communities together which is what political aspirations to a great extent is all about.

Their can be no "Islamic Party" for religous based representation in a modern and free society, so why are the foundations being built. A free society does not base it's policies on a religous belief................

thanks for ur reply, il try address some of the points u made.
firstly, u said "why cant you stand for "britian""
we cant stand for britain because british values contradict our basic islamic values. in britain democracy rules. in islam democracy is not allowed at all. this might come to u as a bit of a shock but let me explain this statement. in democracy the people are the legislators, they make the rules and laws, in Islam the rules and laws are set from my, your, and everones lord, Allah in the Quran and the hadith(narations) of the prophet Muhamed(pbuh). what u have to remember is that islam and Allah can be proven interlectually and rationally so therefor the rules and laws of Islam have to accepted. just like i can prove to u 2+2=4 i can prove to u Allah exists, Islam is the truth and the Quran is the Words of our creator. we dont believe that the limited human mind can make rules and laws for ppl to live by. i could go into this deeper but i think ive outlined the basics so il end that point here.

the next point u raised was the title creates seperatism. ok, it might but do we not see that the muslim community is already seprate from society to an extent. and the reason is because of the values we hold. these values to the average brit might see as something odd such as our view towards democracy or in Islam women have to dress in a certain way, or the men grow beards... all these things potray a comletely different way of life to that of the average brit so there is going to be a obvious clash of thoughts which sometimes lead to sepratism. once again i feel this is another thread on its own so lets end it there.

the most shocking thing u said was, "Why do you always talk about "Muslim opression" yet you said "Nothing" about Muslims oppressing muslims". Where was your voice when saddam was slaughtering his fellow muslim brothers. "
i say most shocking because throughout saddams reighn muslims all over have been condeming him and the evil things he did to our brothers and sisters in Iraq and the sourounding area. so dont say that we didnt voice our opinions against sadam because we did. the reason as to which we dont speak about sadam as much as we speak about the usa or the uk is because they have done alot worse. dont take my word for it, find the number of Iraqi suvillians killed for example. u wont be able to because everyones lost count. the figures range from at least 13 000 to 200 000. alot more than those survillians killed in the 9 11 attacks but yet we see everyday someone talking about 9 11. WHAT ABOUT THE MUSLIMS?? are we inferior? to the wests eyes, yes we are. u as a individual might feel different but as a whole this is the view towards the muslim countries.
i think i anwsered the other points u made. if not just reply and il try.
i also advice u to come to the event and share ur thoughts because this is a very important topic of discussion.

this is BS.

islam does not teach us to alienate ourselves from society, rather it tells us to go preach and integrate with other non muslims and the society at large.

The prophet would send single companions to tribes and the entire tribe would submit to islam, it was through their faith that these people radiated and propogated the best of manners and morals.......

When Umar bin khattab went and recieved the key to palestine, all who lived there (the jews and christians) remained there and lived in harmony along side the muslims for centuries.

the approach stated in the first post is one which would only justify the government to kick all muslims out of britain. When really muslims should be setting the example and be people who can be looked up to and trusted, not hated.

jazakallah khier

wasalam

salaam bro, firstly i wud like to advice as a brother to watch what u say. theres no need for it, rather advice me with nice words not the oppennig line that u started with. jazakallah khier.
i completly agree with u. the muslims shouldnt hide away and alienate themselves from society this is completly wrong and we can use ur examples that said and others aswell to prove this, however when the values in the society contradict the muslims we dont take it. just like the sahabah and the prophet(pbuh) didnt take it. at the same time we dont run from it. rather we challenge it. this is what was trying to say to the person earlier about democracy.
yes we dont vote as muslims because it is Haram, but we still get involved in politics. politics goes on everyday of the year not just every 5 years in the general election. bro, i think u miss-understood the point that u quoted.
take care bro!
masalaam

Brother can you show me evidence that it is haraam? The majority of the Ulema have declared that it is halaal.

sure, give me two minutes

oohhhh senses big heated debate



............ the article says: How do we deal with the Islamophobia in society? yet the way its going about changing this is to infact increase islamophobia. it make no sense yarh.

wasalam

*ansaar this is the time you go get your side of the argument/evidence ready to refute *

[i][i]Unclothing Democracy


وَلاَ تَلْبِسُواْ الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُواْ الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

“And do not clothe (cover) truth with falsehood, while you know what it is.” (Al-Baqarah:42)

One would be forgiven into believing that the amount of times that George Bush referred to democracy in his inaugural speech for his second term as US President that he actually believed in it.

It is not that democracy has any real substance, it never really did. In history, nations and their philosophers who sought to bring life to it only ended up discarding it or spending the rest of their philosophical lives trying to re-engineer it within more philosophical constraints.
Meanwhile, the modern day western politicians and capitalists have been thriving upon it, seducing the world’s states to adopt democracy as the only way to become progressive and civilized. Such is the dominance and influence of western political philosophy over the mind-set of academics, politicians, nations and people – it is as if one would be considered a heretic to even suggest an alternative or to even challenge the validity and application of democracy….and at least be popularly labelled as a fundamentalist, extremist and averse to world peace.

This stranglehold, not surprisingly, today stills deals an unfortunate blow for many leading Islamic thinkers, academics and scholars – who – in their sincere attempts to preserve Islam have made the grave error of wanting to present Islam as not simply ‘democractic’, but the actual source of democracy.

Recently, whilst, Sheikh al-Qardawi on his regular slot on Al-Jazeera was trying hard to defend ‘Islamic democracy’ against a tirade of Muslim callers at pains to point out their fundamental incompatibility – an article printed on-line by ArabNews entitled ‘Muslims and Democracy’ (21/02/05) referred to New York University professor, Noah Feldman, a theorist of Islamic democracy, who observed in his book, ‘After Jihad’, “that the caliphs never had absolute authority...the historical roots (for democracy) are there for modern Muslims who want to draw on the historical narrative”.

Without doubt, the rise of political Islam has been a key cause for the exponential rise in the discussions, conferences, papers, policies to equate Islam with democracy. The guardians of the bastion of ‘western capitalism’ have not only begun to see their own people increasingly beginning to reject the western values, and at least see the open hypocrisies of their western governments, but they have witnessed their worst fear, a global rise in political Islam that challenges the very existence of capitalism, its values and exposes the continuation of imperialist policies around the world, particularly in the Muslim world with the aid of puppet regimes.

To this end, Muslims must be like a cog in this Islamic political wheel. Indeed Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wassalam) said, “The wheels of Islam are turning, so turn with it.”

The Muslims must present the truth as truth and the falsehood as falsehood. The Muslims must not cower in intellectual defeat from the current dominant western political climate of words, values and indeed actions…seeking reconciliation, where there is none and attempt to mould Islam by words and meanings to make it more palatable for western political consumption, though such words and their meanings are alien to Islamic political philosophy and fundamentally contradict the Islamic creed.
Indeed Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) says (in the translation of the meaning),
وَلاَ تَلْبِسُواْ الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُواْ الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

“And do not clothe (cover) truth with falsehood, while you know what it is.” (Al-Baqarah:42)

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَقُولُواْ رَاعِنَا وَقُولُواْ انظُرْنَا وَاسْمَعُوا ْوَلِلكَافِرِينَ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

“O you who believe, do not say ‘Ra’ina, but rather say, ‘Unthurna…” (Al-Baqarah:104).


This ayat was revealed in connection to the incident of where Jews used a word which had a meaning and changed its meaning to insult Muhammad (saw), thereby the Muslims were prohibited from using it.

So where does that leave democracy?
The well-known definition of democracy is of a government that is established, ‘of the people, by the people, for the people’.
By simply scratching at its surface, it is clear that it democracy no relationship with Islam in its generality or in its detail. The following points should be observed:

Origins
Democracy has originated from the mind of man, whereas Islam has originated from Allah (swt).

Basis
Democracy has its basis in secularism i.e. the detachment of religion from life, whereas Islam is based upon a comprehensive socio-economic and political structure where 'religion' i.e. the shariyah, is the source of all legislation.

Thoughts
Democracy produces thoughts such as the four general freedoms (belief, individual, speech and ownership), people are the source of legislation, and the rule of the majority. Islam by contrast does not allow these absolute freedoms, nor are the people the source of legislation and neither is the Islamic ruling based on majority rule.

Systems
Democracy produces systems that incorporate a legislative body (parliament or equivalent), political parties that function to oppose and compete against the government and a time limit for leadership (normally 4-5 years office). The Islamic political structure has no such structures or systems. In Islam there is no legislative body and the Khaleefah is the judicial and executive power. Political parties in Islam exist for one duty that is to account the government and raise the political and intellectual level of the ummah. Political parties are not permitted to compete for power and become an 'opposition party'. Also, the ruler in Islam is the ruler for as long as he implements Islam and as long as he does not contradict the conditions of ruling and neither resigns or dies.

Though in Islam there are elections for the appointment of the leader (Ameer) over the Muslims, one cannot say that elections are what makes Islam and democracy similar, for this is like comparing a dog to a chair and saying that since both have four legs, they are similar. In the west, elections represent the concept that people are sovereign over their affairs and the source of legislation, whereas in Islam elections represent the shariyah rule that the people have the authority and obligation to appoint a ruler to govern them with Islam.

It should be evident therefore that democracy has no relationship with Islam. Indeed the very misery that is being caused in the Muslim world i.e. oppression, suppression of any attempt to account the rulers, denial of rights, nepotism, people political enfranchisement – has been caused and supported by the ‘west’. It is evident that the drive for democracy is only to secure their control over the Muslim world and suppress the rise of political Islam – since their puppets have lost the ability to do this for them and the world has started to talk about the injustices that have the hidden support of western governments.

The intellectual political climate today is ripe for the Muslims to present the Islamic political framework and thoughts and not succumb to the western political philos

I GOT THIS GOOD EXPLANATION OF A SITE
SORRY I TOOK SO LONG I HAD TO DO SOMETHING FOR MY MUM
SOZ
BROTHER I ASK U DEEPLY TO CORECT ME IF U THINK IM WRONG
ALWAYS IN SEARCH OF KNOWLEDGE INSHALLAH
JAZAKALLAH KHIER

I'm actually interested that you posted an article on democracy. I have been posting an article around very much on the subject, and I will direct you to it after we examine this article.
Wait a minute. This quote says do not clothe TRUTH with FALSEHOOD.

But according to you, democracy would be clothing FALSEHOOD with TRUTH.

Therefore, even the quote is misplaced.

I think the author of this article would be surprised to learn that democracy is a very natural concept and the Islamic system itself is democratic.


While a democracy runs on consensus, it does not have to place human desires as the ultimate source of law. In an Islamic democracy, Allah swt is the ultimate source of law. That does not contradict the definition of democracy at all.

The name 'democracy' may have been man-made but it denotes a concept that has been long established in Islam.

The remainder of the article is the same.

Allow me to present another article which is written by a Muslim Shaykh and offers an indepth comparison between Islam and Democracy.

;)