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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008

Well, life wouldn't exactly be 'realistic' without 'mundane trials', will it?

Anyway, in Islam, we believe all hardships, no matter how small, expiate a persons sins, so that paper cut and spider bit might have just wiped out a couple of sins committed a few days ago...
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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008

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Originally Posted by Malaikah View Post
Well, life wouldn't exactly be 'realistic' without 'mundane trials', will it?

Anyway, in Islam, we believe all hardships, no matter how small, expiate a persons sins, so that paper cut and spider bit might have just wiped out a couple of sins committed a few days ago...
Interesting way of looking at it
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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008

People are trialled through ease and hardship. Your children, family and wealth are a trust from Allah which you, and every other will be questioned about, and everyone is trialled in their own way.

Each person will be judged by the Most Just,the same way they were born, lived and died alone, they will be ressurected alone. Each step of your life is a trial, and every breath you have in life is a chance for you to redeem yourself. But every soul has a time in which it will taste death, and then there will be no turning back. What you had earned during this passing abode will be what will be brought forth along with you on the Day of Recompense.


No-one will be dealt with unjustly, so whatever you face in life - Allah is aware of it. If you were forced or coerced into something evil - then He is the Knowing, Aware of that, and He will not hold you responsible for that, but doing evil out of choice will be a source of regret for the evildoer. Each person will be judged independently, their own life will be what they will be judged for, not anothers. Therefore each has his/her own responsibility, and each can only succeed by obedience to Allah and His Messenger.



His slave & Messenger calls to what is good, and calls away from evil. He unites mankind on what they differed, by the will of Allah. He calls them to be sincere to God, and to establish the prayer and to give in charity. He calls them to upholding the ties of the family, and to help the needy. He is known as the most truthful (Al-Ameen) by even those who opposed him, because he was brought up and lived among them.

He warned us of the consequences of our actions and deeds in this life, and that we are responsible for them. And he gave glad tidings of reward and mercy to those who believed and did good for the pleasure of their Lord, while warning of a severe punishment in the life to come, for those who rejected the Promise of their Lord.
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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gator View Post
What about the 3 year old that dies of cancer. That's her test?!

There's definitely a survivorship bias in this idea.
It is up to God who lives and who dies - noone else.

Quote:
Everyone thinks this is a test and that you suffer through the hardships. Well, what about the people who don't make. What if they had lived and redeemed themselves?
No, you are to learn from the test. I will give a personal example. At As and A level accounts, during college years, I was the shiznit. No joke - at one point, I taught the class room. You could ask anyone in that college about me (even those not in my year --- hell, one time a student who was 1 year above me asked for my help on accounts due to my reputation) and they'd say: yes, he is the absolute shiznit at accounts. The exam comes, I get an E. I did everything in my ability to ascertain an A (note; from my actions, I was a master at accounts at the time as already illustrated). Heck, there were people in my class who were absolute crap at accounts and still managed to beat me overall. Noone (not even the teachers, who admitted I was the shiznit in all my parents evenings) knows why I got an E - I personally thing the examiner was on crack but that's by the by. Yeah it ticked me right off - I freakin cried like a baby (for 5 minutes) because of it.

But, that's the way it goes. The example I gave was to illustrate that you can do everything in your power to succeed but one time you will fail. Is that to purely make you suffer? No. It is to teach you something - which is individual for every person who goes through that test.

Quote:
The idea is everyone gets there fair shot, which is hardly the case.
Absolutely. Many beings let alone human get a fair shot at life. Thus, God has blessed us with compassion and consideration for all His creations. And as such we should show this through our actions.

Quote:
Is Sudden Infant Death Syndrome a test for the parents and screw the little kid?
Only God can answer this.

If we are not tested then how do we know where we stand? Also, who is to say that SID syndrome is just to test the parents of that child? What if you or I are also being tested. That's the way I approach it at least.

As for the topic; I believe someone stated it before: the question could also be phrased as why not just plunk us all in heaven or hell. It is simple; we as humans have to first help them. God will aid us (this is because this life is a test for US!)
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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008

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Originally Posted by Nerd View Post
If I ask you to explain all the suffering on this earth (human and otherwise) despite God’s tenure of all His divine abilities and mercifulness, You would present the standard apologists’ response; God’s divine psyche does not have to be on par with that of the human or more specifically, God does not necessarily have the very human emotion of empathy.

Which I could rebuff by highlighting the various similarities (that I could draw) between the divine and human ‘minds’:
jealousy (conditioning absolute belief in His unity),
possessiveness (worshiping /reverence)
and the most controversial, vengefulness (dreadful mechanisms of torture) just to name a few.

So if God can have these idiosyncrasies which are reflected by our human nature, why not empathy? Would not a compassionate and omnipotent being do all that is in its power to save mankind (or any other creature) from constant suffering and certain doom?
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i disagree with the premise that Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] has not done everything in HIS power to save us. HE DID send thousands upon thousands of Prophets and and hundreds of Messengers to warn, educate and save mankind. so why do we blame HIM when it is us that refuse to obey HIM? we have the free will to disobey and we appear to take full advantage of it, so why whine about the consequences UNLESS you do YOUR PART by returning to Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] and accepting the guidance the HE provided via HIS Messenger, Muhammad ibn Abdullah [Salla Allahu Alayhe Wa Salaam]?


regarding items such as the tsunami, i remember a lecture by Mufti Ismail ibn Musa Menk. in it he presented the the plight of those who were caught in sin at the moment of the disaster and the martyrdom of those who were in Ibadah at the same moment. also in the second volume of the Ma'ariful Qur'an we are told (although the ayat escapes me at the moment) that we will die as we have lived So if you have Ikhlas and Sabr and perform all of your responsibilities that Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] will take you upon that state. if you shirk your responsibilities and are careless with your Ibadah, you have no such promise.

we tend to compare INFINITY in the Akhira with a few miserable years in the dunya! we tend to deny that Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] will judge us or that HE even hast the RIGHT to judge us, yet we have no worries about judging HIM! Nowoothu Billah!

Quote:
Gator wrote
What about the 3 year old that dies of cancer. That's her test?!

There's definitely a survivorship bias in this idea.

Everyone thinks this is a test and that you suffer through the hardships. Well, what about the people who don't make. What if they had lived and redeemed themselves?

The idea is everyone gets there fair shot, which is hardly the case.

Is Sudden Infant Death Syndrome a test for the parents and screw the little kid?
you don't believe in Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala], so there no way you are going to know that 3 year old will be in Jannah, nor will you understand the concept of Allah's[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] justice. it actually appears that YOU are the one denying them justice by denying the ONE who, provides justice.

it is YOU that claims the victim of SIDS has been somehow shortchanged or that Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] is somehow unfair. all of your misconceptions are based upon your denial of Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala]!

La Ilaha Ilah Allah, Muhammadur Rasulullah could change all of that, but we have no power to convince you of that. you have to change yourself first...

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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008




Quote:
Originally Posted by aamir failed!?
he exam comes, I get an E.

woahh! i'm shocked bro
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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008

ok lets step back for a second


God created earth

likewise he has the ability to create more.

he understands every emotion and is all just.

he has granted a respite till the day of judgement to dwell in freedom and do good.

The suffering which occurs in between will be recompensed at the end of the respite.


whats hard to understand? people just need to get their heads round a "day of judgement" and its all good.
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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008

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Originally Posted by YusufNoor View Post
you don't believe in Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala], so there no way you are going to know that 3 year old will be in Jannah, nor will you understand the concept of Allah's[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] justice. it actually appears that YOU are the one denying them justice by denying the ONE who, provides justice.

it is YOU that claims the victim of SIDS has been somehow shortchanged or that Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] is somehow unfair. all of your misconceptions are based upon your denial of Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala]!

I'm just showing my thought process in regards to your ideas about the nature of god in relation to the fact that suffering exists. The argument that "only god knows" just doesn't do for me

La Ilaha Ilah Allah, Muhammadur Rasulullah could change all of that, but we have no power to convince you of that. you have to change yourself first...

I am as god made me.

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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gator View Post
What about the 3 year old that dies of cancer. That's her test?!

There's definitely a survivorship bias in this idea.

Everyone thinks this is a test and that you suffer through the hardships. Well, what about the people who don't make. What if they had lived and redeemed themselves?

The idea is everyone gets there fair shot, which is hardly the case.

Is Sudden Infant Death Syndrome a test for the parents and screw the little kid?

In islam, any child that dies before reaching puberty goes straight to heaven. In the situation being described, the people being tested are the parents.


"With regard to where the children who have died are – are they in the seventh heaven with Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) or in their graves?

What has been narrated concerning that is the hadeeth of Samurah ibn Jundub (may Allaah be pleased with him) who said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) often used to say to his companions: “Has anyone among you seen a dream?” and whoever Allaah willed would tell him what he had seen. One day he said: “Last night two people came to me and made me get up, and they said to me: ‘Let’s go.’ So I set off with them…” He mentioned things that he had seen, then he said:

“We set off, and we came to a verdant garden, in which were all the colours of spring, where there was a man who was so tall that I could hardly see his head in the sky. Around the man was the largest number of children I had ever seen…” Then among things that the two angels explained to him was: “As for the tall man who was in the garden, that was Ibraaheem. As for the children who were around him, these are all the children who died in a state of fitrah.” One of the Muslims said: “O Messenger of Allaah, what about the children of the mushrikeen?” He said: “And the children of the mushrikeen.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (7047).

This hadeeth indicates that whoever dies before reaching the age of puberty is in Paradise under the care of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), not that he is in the seventh heaven. "

edit- source http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=71175&ln=eng
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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008

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Originally Posted by crayon View Post
This hadeeth indicates that whoever dies before reaching the age of puberty is in Paradise under the care of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), not that he is in the seventh heaven. "

edit- source http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=71175&ln=eng
I under stand that, but my question I guess is what is the test for the child? Doesn't that soul get a chance to develop and mature. We are different people at different stages of life.

Why is not this soul tested at later stages of life. Allowed to grow and learn through other tests?

Has that question been addressed?

Thanks.
   
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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd View Post
If I ask you to explain all the suffering on this earth (human and otherwise) despite God’s tenure of all His divine abilities and mercifulness,

You would present the standard apologists’ response; God’s divine psyche does not have to be on par with that of the human or more specifically, God does not necessarily have the very human emotion of empathy.

Which I could rebuff by highlighting the various similarities (that I could draw) between the divine and human ‘minds’:
jealousy (conditioning absolute belief in His unity),
possessiveness (worshiping /reverence)
and the most controversial, vengefulness (dreadful mechanisms of torture) just to name a few.

So if God can have these idiosyncrasies which are reflected by our human nature, why not empathy? Would not a compassionate and omnipotent being do all that is in its power to save mankind (or any other creature) from constant suffering and certain doom?
Salaaam Nerd.

You are on this world so you could be tested. To separate the good from the evil, the oppressors from the oppressed, the just from the unjust, and so forth.

And what do you think the Day of Judgment is for? Allah if He Willed could truly make us all believers, but we Humans are being tested, and we will have to answer for the atrocities which he committed and reward for the suffering we endured with patience.

Those who suffer in this world, fear Allah, obey Allah, put their trust in Allah and those who are patient are the ones which will enter paradise.

Suffering, just like happiness is part of the test. Will you disbelieve because calamity touched you, or will you disbelieve because your riches occupy your mind 24/7.

A true believer, will believe in Allah while suffering from a disease, occupation, torture, poverty, and he/she will put their trust in Allah, for Allah sees what we do.

So fear not, the ultimate Judge is Allah, and He is the Best of Judges. Suffering is just part of the test, hold-fast, for Allah doesn’t forsake those who believe in HIM with clear certainty.

I am from Somalia, and you can’t possibly talk to me about suffering, and never ending war, poverty, chaos, and occupation. Who listens to the cries of the thousands of mothers who saw their children dying, their daughters raped, their husbands killed, their fathers tortured other than Allah? Who listens to the cries of the thousands of orphans who walk bare feet, half-dressed on the blood-stained hot cracked roads of Mogadishu with empty bellies other than Allah? Who listens to the cries of fathers, who watch as their daughters being brutally raped and their wives dying in their arms other than Allah?

Do not despair of Allah’s Mercy

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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008

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Originally Posted by Gator View Post
I under stand that, but my question I guess is what is the test for the child? Doesn't that soul get a chance to develop and mature. We are different people at different stages of life.

Why is not this soul tested at later stages of life. Allowed to grow and learn through other tests?

Has that question been addressed?

Thanks.

Don't you know that a child goes straight to Heaven? Allah knows what is best for His Slaves.

Allah tests us in all ages, old and young will die.
   
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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008

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Originally Posted by Gator View Post
I under stand that, but my question I guess is what is the test for the child? Doesn't that soul get a chance to develop and mature. We are different people at different stages of life.

Why is not this soul tested at later stages of life. Allowed to grow and learn through other tests?

Has that question been addressed?

Thanks.
Why would a child's soul need to grow and learn from its mistakes if it's going to heaven no matter what? What benefit would be gained from giving someone a biology test if they've already got their high school diploma?
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Default Re: Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth? - 04-17-2008

This is a tricky question for me to get across.

The child isn't developed? Why didn't it get a chance to develo