Perhaps if you knew there was a difference of opinion akhee, or if you asked another scholar and they said otherwise. Otherwise, it's the opinion of a scholar versus that of a layman.

AbdulFattah is right. I agree.

@ abdul fattah i understand what your saying, and i also think proof is required for actions in islaam.

if an architect doesnt notice the flaws of his blueprints its ok for his students to point it out to him

but are we even qualified to be called students...

Selam aleykum
Again, no offense brother, I'm not trying to attack you personally; but I resent the cultural status that sheiks have nowadays (whether they want that status or that status is given to them without their consent) where only a certain type of "student" is qualified to question. Again if we look at history we see examples of great leaders like Abu bakr being questioned during their khutbah by a layman woman and Abu bakr admitting his mistake. If you ask me, it's not a matter of us being qualified students to question, but rather the other way around. If a sheikh cannot defend his claims even to the questions of a layman, can you still call him a sheik?

I believe Sister Crayon mentioned the way these religious police act, and I assume we can fairly agree that since she lives in Riyadh, she has better experience in the way the masses are treated by them:

http://www.islamicboard.com/929033-post11.html (Moving to Saudi)
http://www.islamicboard.com/929205-post18.html (Moving to Saudi)

I have no problem with them, but I think they ought to do their job with the Prophetic methodology of correcting people because that would produce the most benefit. Does anyone know, are they given a class by the scholars on how to correct people?

Brother just because we haven't seen/read the evidence used to justify having these police, doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist out their somewhere!

For all we know the Saudi shaykhs could have written pages and pages with proof from the Quran and sunnah about why it is justified. So unless you can prove that they haven't done that, your argument is baseless.

^ oh bro i wasnt saying theres anything wrong with asking questions?! lol

but i think the point was people asking us questions lol

and my point was, if the sheikhs of saudi are letting this happen in the holiest of places then perhaps it is permissable in islaam and my logic was because they preach encouraging good and forbidding evil, they seem quite strict in implementing sunnah and adhering to the ways of the pious predecessors.

there is no double standards here, if anyone else had the same level of knowledge and support as the saudi sheikhs (ie they can communicate with all sheikhs and can be corrected etc) then when something has happened for a long time, it just seens like the most sensible answer is they deem it permissable.

im not saying that they are right, but they have a right to their ijtihaad!

with this you must agree..

selam aleykum
I'm not "stating my opinion". And neither should the scholars. There is no room in Islam for personal opinions. I'm simply pointing out that the correct attitude is to only accept rulings by scholars if they have proof to back that up. As for the specific rules in question, I doubt it's very wise to go in depth and discuss whether or not Islam forbids having cats as pet or woman driving for example. My point is simply that to date I have seen no prove for such claims, so until I do see that I hold it to be untrue.

are police allowed then or are they bidah too? should there be guards to guard places like the haramain or is that too bidah?
while the religious police may not be up to standards today in general, isnt promoting virtue and preventing vice good?
and isnt it part of their duties to bust drug gangs/pornography/indecent behaviour etc?

Then why don't you ask a Saudi shaykh, or get someone who speaks Arabic to? Their numbers are well-known, and I have even posted some of their numbers in the seeking knowledge section. Otherwise, I don't see the use of arguing about something that none of us clearly have knowledge of, especially from an Islaamic viewpoint.

And as my signature states: the deen is in the narrations and not the opinions.

And it is upon this principle that the 3ulamaa give verdicts. Whether or not the evidence is known to us, is another issue.

Selam aleykum
Yes of course, sister
In my first post I clearly stated:

I agree.

Selam aleykum
Good idea, maybe someone in this forum will volunteer....
So far I haven't had any opportunity to ask such questions or to have someone ask in my behalf. Just because their numbers are well known means it's accessible for everyone. Bisides I doubt it's picknick to justify why people can't have cat pets for example over the phone, not to mention the more complex issues. Not only that but this person remembering everything, and translating it well enough to me. So no offense, but I think your approach is a bit naive. In the end I remain in my position, unless they make their alleged "proofs" more accessible (namely accessible to me) I refuse to accept them. I don't see why this is making everybody dance on their toes, it's the most logical thing if you ask me. I'd even bet most of these sheikhs would understand and acknowledge my attitude as healthy if they are fair.

hmm i remember a sermon which speaks about virtue and vice in general. Not about the current virute and vicers but read anyway, ill post the main parts:

Condemning of Vices
Shaykh Salaah al-Budayr
27 Rabee‘ul-Awwal 1426 (6 May 2005)

Dear Muslims! At the end of the Time, there will be an increase in the intrigues, and the forces of falsehood shall have evil designs. The pious and faithful Muslims would increasingly be seen as strangers; not of their lands but as regards their religion. Everything has its sign and the sign of weakness of religiosity is shameless and impudent committing of immoral acts.



Strangeness of Islaam lies in diminishing it, violating its teachings, abandoning its commandments, taking its injunctions for granted, failing to help its cause and scorning its sanctities. It also includes committing major sins, being negligent to the point of committing sins and acts of debauchery with impunity, social and moral degeneration, disrespecting the law of Islaam and its regulations, publicly perpetrating heinous deeds and all that is unjustifiable in the eye of Islaam.

Other manifestations of strangeness of Islaam in this age are prevalence of obscene and indecent people and obliteration of the practise of promoting virtues and preventing vice so much so that nothing remains of this practise but its figure. There is also widespread submission to desires, corrupt intentions, deviant opinions, and erroneous fatwas; compromising views of the indulgent, contradicting the texts of the Qur’aan and the Sunnah and going against the consensus of the Ummah.

All this is done under the guise of noisy misinterpretations, fake slogans of reform and change and philosophies that are not backed by the teachings of Islaam, being created by light-headed hypocrites who are foot-soldiers of Satan and enemies of Islaam, chastity and virtue, and advocates of licentiousness and misguidance. The Messenger of Allaah said the truth when He predicted, “Islaam started as a strange religion and it shall return into a strange religion as it was. Blessed be the strangers.” (Muslim)


Blessed are you, those who hold fast unto the teachings of Islaam at this time of trials! Blessed are you, those who are acting by the Sunnah of the noble Prophet, Muhammad at this time of crises!

Fellow Muslims! Strangeness of Islaam in the lands of the Muslims started when sinners flagrantly committed sins and mischief while some people look elsewhere with indifference and others supporting them, to the detriment of the Islaamic teachings. Ibn Battaal said, “Committing sins openly is tantamount to mocking the right of Allaah, His Messenger and the right of the righteous Muslims. It is also a kind of rebellion against them.”

Fellow Muslims! Failing to speak against flagrant sinners is a blemish on the followers of Islaam. It is an indication of their flawed allegiance to the religion of Allaah and their fighting to elevate His Word and the Sunnah of His Messenger. It is a sign of their weak faith and their defective trust in Allaah. Allaah says,

The believers, men and women, are Auliyâ' (helpers, supporters, friends, protectors) of one another, they enjoin (on the people) Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islaamic Monotheism and all that Islaam orders one to do), and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. polytheism and disbelief of all kinds, and all that Islaam has forbidden); they perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) and give the Zakât, and obey Allaah and His Messenger. Allaah will have His Mercy on them. Surely Allaah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.”

In the above verse, Allaah regards promoting virtues and preventing vices one of the first and most prominent characteristics of the believers. The Messenger of Allaah said, “He who amongst you sees something abominable should modify it with the help of his hand; and if he has not strength enough to do it, then he should do it with his tongue [by speaking against it], and if he has not strength enough to do it, (even) then he should (abhor it) from his heart, and that is the least of faith.” (Muslim)

Ibn Mas‘ood narrated that the Messenger of Allaah, “Never a Prophet had been sent before me by Allaah towards his nation who had not among his people disciples and companions who followed his ways and obeyed his command. Then there came after them their successors who said whatever they did not practise, and practised whatever they were not commanded to do. He who strove against them with his hand was a believer: he who strove against them with his tongue was a believer, and he who strove against them with his heart was a believer and beyond that there is no faith even to the extent of a mustard seed.” (Muslim)

Dear brethren! The one who fails to speak against vice when it is being flagrantly committed and the one who covers the sinner up will share in the consequences of that sin. Allaah says,

“And fear the Fitnah (affliction and trial, etc.) which affects not in particular (only) those of you who do wrong (but it may afflict all the good and the bad people), and know that Allaah is Severe in punishment.”

(Al-Anfaal 8:25)

It is a trial in which the sin committed by the insolent sinner and the consequent is felt by both the pious and the impious. This is because; the sin was not condemned when it was being perpetrated.

If someone says: Why then are those who did not commit the sin included in the punishment? The answer is: They approved the sin or failed to speak against it when it was being committed.

The Messenger of Allaah said, “If a man commits sins among a people and they are able to stop him but they fail to do so, Allaah will afflict them with a punishment before they die.” (Aboo Daawood)

The Prophet also said, “If the people see a wrong-doer and they do not stop him from persisting in his wrong-doing, Allaah will include them all in punishment.” (Aboo Daawood and at-Tirmidhee)

This is a serious threat. We pray that Allaah forgive us, show His mercy upon us and guide those who have went astray among us.

Imaam al-Qurtubee said, “Every country in which there are four, its inhabitants are protected from affliction: A just ruler who does not wrong anyone, a scholar who remains on the path of guidance, men who promote virtues and prevent vice and encourage learning knowledge and the Qur’aan and women who are covered and do not displace their adornment as the women of the age of ignorance do.”

Fellow Muslims! It is only those who clearly speak against the evil that will be saved. The flagrant sinners who impudently violate the command of Allaah and those who fail to speak against them will be the losers. Allaah says,

“So when they forgot the reminding that had been given to them, We rescued those who forbade evil, but We seized those who did wrong with a severe torment because they used to rebel (disobey Allaah).”

(Al-A‘raaf 7:175)
In the above verse, there is a great warning for us against being like the mentioned people, so that what will not face similar consequences.

Allaah says,

“If only there had been among the generations before you, persons having wisdom, prohibiting (others) from Al-Fasâd (disbelief, polytheism, and all kinds of crimes and sins) in the earth, except a few of those whom We saved from among them. Those who did wrong pursued the enjoyment of good things of (this worldly) life, and were Mujrimûn (criminals, disbelievers in Allaah, polytheists, sinners, etc.). And your Lord would never destroy the towns wrongfully, while their people were right-doers.”

(Hood 11:116-117)

Only a few among them were saved because they spoke out against the corruption.

O you who publicly commit sins, you have been afflicted with loss since the day safety is removed from you and you fell into the abyss of destruction. The Messenger of Allaah said, “All the sins of my followers will be forgiven except those who commit a sin openly or disclose their sins to the people. An example of such disclosure is that a person commits a sin at night and though Allaah screens it from the public, then he comes in the morning, and says, 'O so-and-so, I did such-and-such (evil) deed yesterday,' though he spent his night screened by his Lord (none knowing about his sin) and in the morning he removes Allaah's screen from himself.” (Al-Bukhaaree)

Fellow Muslims! Stop those who openly exceed the limits of Allaah and admonish those who publicly commit sins. Do not condone the sins. Spare no effort in preventing the sinner from committing more sins before it is too late.

The Messenger of Allaah said, “If a sin is committed in the land, the one who witnessed it but spoke against it is like the one who was not there when it was being committed, and the one who was not there but approved of it is like the one who witnessed it.”

Ibn Rajab said, “He who witnessed a sin but disliked it in his heart is like the one who did not witness it – if he was unable to stop it with it tongue or his hand. He who did not witness it but approved of it is like the one who witnessed it and was able to stop but failed to do so. This is because approving sins is one of the greatest forbidden things.”

Brethren in faith! Woe unto those who keep the company of the sinners, are happy about their prevalence, are pleased with their falsehood, help them, publicise their sinfulness or increase their ranks. Whoever seeks to increase the rank of some people is also one of them; and the one who is pleased with the deeds of a people is an associate of them.

Being pleased with sin is a sinful act, and being pleased with disbelief is also an act of disbelief. Allaah says,

“And it has already been revealed to you in the Book (this Qur’aan) that when you hear the Verses of Allaah being denied and mocked at, then sit not with them, until they engage in a talk other than that; (but if you stayed with them) certainly in that case you would be like them. Surely, Allaah will collect the hypocrites and disbelievers all together in Hell.”

(An-Nisaa 4:140)

Woe unto those who expose themselves to the wrath of Allaah and His punishment. Woe unto them on a day that they will reap the consequences of their evil deeds. The end of their evil deeds shall be a loss. May Allaah guard us against the path of the losers! May He make us among the rightly guided!

“O you who believe! Fear Allaah (by doing all that He has ordered and by abstaining from all that He has forbidden) as He should be feared. [Obey Him, be thankful to Him, and remember Him always], and die not except in a state of Islaam (as Muslims) with complete submission to Allaah.”

(Aal ‘Imraan 3:102)

Dear breth