Problem with that interpretation is the use of the present tense.
It doesn't say "the angel wrote down what God decided"
it says "God decides and the angel writes it down"

Hi Azy,
I don't know where you got "God decides and the angel writes down" from, but that's not what either of those two hadeeth say.

I don't not know which ahadiths you have quoted or if they are tawatur or ohad, the ones you've brought before I have addressed!
You can have any number of events hormone influenced or not that alter the sex of the child.. surely you've heard of ambiguous genitalia, penis at 12, men born with uteruses (in fact I turned that into a question of the month on the health and science section, androgen insensitivity etc I don't want to give it any more time than I already have.. if you want to understand when sex differentiation first occurs, you may refer to the urology article I have quoted above, or purchase a high yeild embryo book!


No hadith has to get into embryological detail for you, it not disagreeing with may I add very very modern finds, is really all that matters.. and of course you don't find it miraculous, I really believe my quote captures that well!

There is a difference between an embryo and a fetus, one deals with the process of organogenesis, the other deals with growth and differentiation, I believe I have already covered that above!

It isn't a matter of when it is ethical, I have touched briefly on ROE v. WADE in previous posts and again don't want to repeat myself, I am pressed for time and travelling out of town on sunday (I digress) .. medicine AND PLEASE READ THIS, DOESN'T CONDONE ABORTIONS, WHAT IT HAS DONE THOUGH IS DEFINE AN AGE LIMIT ON WHEN YOU CAN LEGALLY HAVE AN ABORTION.


cheers

Here you go:
Well, it does disagree with modern finds. Firstly, it says God decides what the gender will be on the 40th day, it doesn't say anything about recognition or differentiation. And if it did, it would still be wrong, as the differentiation begins in the 7th week, or so the article says. Besides, a person being born a different gender than their genetic one are never "normal", so it's no true god decides whether they'll be male or female, but rather whether tehy'll be normal or not.
You said a child is considered fetus after 4 months of gestation and did not back it up. I'm not a doctor but from what I can find on the net, the fetal stage begins somewhere in the 9th week of pregnancy. Thats when organs are present but not fully developed, they're not fully developed at 15 weeks gestation (120 days) either..
No it hasn't. The limit when a woman can legally have an abortion varies from country to country. I don't think any limit is set in the US.

What would you like? that I send it to ISNA for verification of authenticity or that I render an interpretation, or that I offer you an equivalent but with a more scientific rendition?

Again, it need not tell you of recognition or differentiation, that isn't its purpose, what it needs is to establish a sign for you to reflect on without being a polar opposite of what we know of science, i.e likened to a fish or a plant.. it is funny I don't see any of you scrutanizing Galen as error ridden as his thesis was given that he was actually a physician, the same way you scrutanize a hadith over a 9 day difference, the hadiths of the prophet aren't the Quran and don't need an absolute value, given that in medicine itself there are no absolute values...are you kidding me or do you just want to split hairs?
I wouldn't go so far as saying people born with different genetics are 'never normal' does Jamie Lee Curtis appear less than normal to you? she is an XY, she is actually supposed to be male, but is born with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, if we were to go solely on chromosomes at conception she would be deemed a male, but she isn't!

Buy a book or visit with your local gynecologist and ask him/her when a conceptus is considered an embryo or considered a fetus, also you need to understand that there is a whole other field in medicine called ethics, where a committee convenes and decides when to round up a day or two and for what purpose... I am not going to go into finite details for you beyond the purpose of this forum or my time allowance, again, I can advise you of which books to purchase if you really need to have a critical analysis or challenge the American Medical association.

There is a legal limit in the US on what is called elective abortions!
Anything else you can't get in a hospital unless it is for medical purposes..
You may then go into one of those clinics that get bombed on occasion and pay out of pocket!
As far as medical ethics go a non therapeutic abortions can't be performed after four month!


cheers

[quote]All I'm saying is that the hadiths contradict themselves and that the description of the embrionic/fetal developement the first hadith gives is flawed. Id' like your comment on that.
We're not discussing Galen. And no one ever claimed Galen's wrok is divine.
My initial criticism of the hadith had nothing to do with the 9 day difference and it still doesn't, however you brought up gender recognition, so I replied, I may be splitting hair.
Of course, very few values in medcine are absolute, yet the hadith gives a very precise number and you don't seem to be bothered with that.
and let me quote you:
She's not normal. she was born with both male and female sexual organs and she can't have children.
I've checked dozens of websites and most say a "conceptus" is considered a fetus somewhere around the 9th week of pregnancy.
I guess I was wrong about the US. anyway, abortion legislation varies from country to country.

They don't contradict themselves, you just simply need to understand the subject at hand!

This discussion started off albeit not with your person on where the prophet got the embryological knowledge, when the Galen thing didn't work out, you or a number of you are going after content, which frankly you can't it is too profound, unless it really is by way of splitting hair.. and it is a nine day difference if at all on that population observed as per the urology journal I referenced


No I am not bothered with that, the words of the prophet aren't the words of the Quran for me to look for absolution, you haven't provided me with whether it is tawatur of ohad that is two, and lastly it really isn't far off, that it is actually quite remarkable, and unparalleled throughout the centuries, given the dates on the journal above being quite a modern find!

She is genetically male but a phenotypic female, with external sex characteristics of females, she had normal breast enlargement at puberty, but does not have a uterus, the undescended testes are removed at to not cause tumors, and if we didn't have the sophisitcated modern technology she would appear as any other normal though infertile female! in fact irregardless of her androgen insensitivity many genetically sustained females can also be born without a uterus, or have vaginas that end in a blind pouch due to a number of other problems, thus unless you are running an actual genetic test you couldn't distinguish one from another. Which should lead you to conclude, that you can't use genetic determination at conception as the basis of when one is determined male or female.. when it actually becomes physically manifest is given to you in the specific period quoted above in a medical journal and due to a number of other influences science can only define the anatomy, the physiology the biochemistry the genetics of it. It will always give you a how but not a why-- religion on the other hand will answer that for you whether you care to accept it or not!

I have no idea where you are actually going with this? this isn't a question of embryo or fetus even though I have touched upon that to distinguish the difference, so much as it is a legal ethical issue, which might or might not have anything at all to do with proper developement. Again I don't have the time to go into this with such great detail, but even a fetus at 20 weeks has a slim chance of surviving outside the uterus, lung maturation in and of itself happens around the last two or three weeks of pregnancy, those born prior have considerable problems with hyaline disease and a host of other problems, not the subject of this topic, but certainly whatever consensus deems a fetus a human being is decided by a committee and the number established is four months, which is exactly the number established by religion, i.e when a soul is breathed into one..

Every country has a medical ethical committee, and medicine isn't politics so it doesn't run by the same policies, you need to know that the first oath folks take internationally is 'first do no harm', secondly there are rights of children that are completely autonomous from the parents religious beliefs or lack thereof in terms of life and or limb saving treatment...I will not speak for Europe as I am not very familiar with their system, but will speak for middle east and the states and that is how it is!..
to begin with to form an abortion after that period of time, you can't use a conventional dilation and curettage.
It is major surgery, requiring that you crush the skull of a fetus, vacuum suction with major blood loss, as well as possibility for such things as adhesions or ashermans syndrome etc, which most folks are oblivious to when electing to go to such clinics.

That is all I want to impart on the subject so please spare me any more petitio principii.. I know you enjoy debates and under normal circumstances I'd get into this in great detail
however I'll advise you to purchase this book
http://www.amazon.com/Clinical-Ethic...4599794&sr=8-2

it isn't very expensive but will take care of many legal/medical/ethical issues that you might ponder, which can appear esoteric as in why four or why this, which is futilistic and very expansive for the purpose of our discussion...

Well, both hadiths speak of an angel visiting the womb who writes down 4 things connected with destiny, age, livelihood, provision etc. the only difference is in timing. It's true the second hadith doesn't emntion the scroll of destiny, but what's the point in writing down things that had been written down 80 days earlier?..

Do you think this is an accurate description of embrionic/fetal developement?

Could you provide some evidence for this. I searched the net and couldn't find anything.

thanks. I might buy it.

When you have two ahadiths that are similar but slightly off, you go to the chain of Isnad and ask a scholar, there is a science to hadiths, and I have actually gotten into a long argument with a sister here who was arguing against another hadith, that she didn't think true, no lay person is qualified to judge authenticity of hadith unless they are learned on the subject



It is a gross description of embryonic development, a few pages back, I have described to you similar terms used in pathology unadulterated of the molecular aspect of the subject!

You may purchase a book on the subject from amazon on the subjects of eugenics/embryology and ethics, not everything you seek has an answer on the net!

Great

peace

I was paraphrasing but I didn't think it made any difference to the meaning...
The original text was:-
"My Lord, would he be male or female ? And your Lord decides as He desires and the angel then puts down that"

The hadith says a 40 days old embryo has a sense ot hearing and sight. It also says it's got skin, flesh and bones, all of which was created at the same day. It also suggest nothing happens to the semen the first 40 days of pregancy.
The second hadith is vague, though it does suggest that changes occur only ever 40 days, as well as that nothing happens to sperm for fourty days. Verse 23:14 (Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood...) suggest that the the clot is created directly from sperm. Seeing taht the clot is created on day 40, nothing happens to the sperm before that.