Alleged Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - Page 4

Chuck · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-30-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by snakelegs

so jannah = firdaus? i never realized that before.

i thought paradise was firdaus and jannah was heaven.
so i learned something - thanks.

firdaus is one type of jannah. There are different levels/types of jannah, I think this the best one, if I remember correctly.

Khayal · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-30-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by snakelegs

so jannah = firdaus? i never realized that before.

i thought paradise was firdaus and jannah was heaven.
so i learned something - thanks.

the Messenger of Allah said:
(If you ask Allah for Paradise, then ask him for Al-Firdaws, for it is the highest part of Paradise, in the middle of Paradise, and from it spring the rivers of Paradise, and above it is the (Mighty) Throne of the Most Merciful.)

.

------ · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 07-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck

firdaus is one type of jannah. There are different levels/types of jannah, I think this the best one, if I remember correctly.

czgibson · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 07-01-2008

Greetings,

There's one aspect of this question that hasn't really been addressed. As Sarada said: How can a vice become a virtue?

Why is it that wine, something that Muslims view as bad and are forbidden from drinking during their lives, is used as one of the enticements of paradise?

Fair enough, perhaps the wine in paradise would be different, but isn't that still logically equivalent to having a description of paradise where, say, non-harmful heroin is available? Hypothetically speaking, if that was in Muslim scripture, people here would still be using the same arguments to explain it away.

People: disbelievers like me who question this type of thing are not doing it because we're perverse or unable to reason, or whatever other attributes we've kindly been appended with, it's simply because we do see it as a massive contradiction, perhaps one of many. The frequent name-calling that we often get in response to this type of questioning does not actually dispel that impression, or help the discussion in any way.

Peace

------ · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 07-01-2008

Here is an answer to the first post;

Quote:

Wine - Good or Bad?

14 October 2005
Hesham Azmy & Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
We read the missionary claim regarding this supposed “contradiction” as follows:

Is wine good or bad? Is us forbidden on earth something that is truly good? Or is in Paradise not only allowed but provided in overflowing measures (rivers of…) something that is so bad that it is even called “Satan’s handiwork”?

Response
We believe that there can be no substitute for the ignorance exhibited, and that these concocted “problems” of the Christian missionaries is due to their sheer inability of understanding how tafsir is performed. In response to this alleged “contradiction” in the aforementioned verses, we would like to cite Harun Yahya’s “How Do The Unwise Interpret The Qur’an?” in order for the issue to be duly addressed:

Wine-drinking in Heaven

One of the topics unwise people portray as a contradiction is how wine is served in Heaven when it is forbidden in this world. The verse that they use to make their claim reads:

“An image of the Garden which is promised to those who have fear for God: in it there are rivers of water which will never spoil and rivers of milk whose taste will never change and rivers of wine, delightful to all who drink it, and rivers of honey of undiluted purity; in it they will have fruit of every kind and forgiveness from their Lord. Is that like those who will be in the Fire timelessly, for ever, with boiling water to drink which lacerates their bowels?” (Surah Muhammad: 15)

As previously explained, this type of error of perception occurs when one is prejudiced, deliberately perverse, unable to reason, and has not grasped the Qur’an as a whole. Now, let us examine why such a thoughtless claim is illogical and baseless from several angles:
First of all, we are able to see that there is a difference between the drink served in Heaven and the one of this world from the following verse:

“With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication.” (Surat al-Waqi’ah: 18-19)

As can be seen, the drinks served in Heaven do not have any of the negative effects and attributes that alcoholic drinks in this world do. As mentioned in the verse, they do not cause headaches or confuse the mind. This means that even though they give pleasure, they do not in any way cause drunkenness or illness. So there is not the least inconsistency in such a drink being offered in Heaven.
Alcoholic drinks in this world, on the other hand, have always been portrayed in the Qur’an together with their many damaging and harmful attributes. Some of the verses that describe the destructive and negative nature of alcoholic drinks in this world are:

“You who have faith! Wine and gambling, stone altars and divining arrows are filth from the handiwork of Satan. Avoid them completely so that hopefully you will be successful. Satan wants to stir up enmity and hatred between you by means of wine and gambling, and to debar you from remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not then give them up?” (Surat al-Ma’idah: 90-91)

“They will ask you about wine and gambling. Say, ‘There is great sin in both of them and also certain benefits for mankind. But the sin in them is greater than the benefit.’” (Surat al-Baqarah: 219)

Obviously, it cannot be expected that characteristics of drinks that are forbidden in this world could exist in Heavenly ones. As God describes the Heavenly drinks, He emphasizes once more that they do not contain the harmful attributes of those in this world:

“…a cup from a flowing spring passing round among them, as white as driven snow, delicious to those who drink, which has no headache in it and does not leave them stupefied.” (Surat as-Saffat: 45-47)

The logic of anyone who sees this topic as a contradiction when God has made it all so clear must be seriously doubted. It is one of the Qur’an’s miracles that when a person approaches it with ignorance and ulterior motives, he will be incapable of understanding even the most obvious of topics. God describes the case of such a person in one of His verses:

“No self can have faith except with God’s permission. He places a blight on those who do not use their intellect.” (Surah Yunus: 100)

Secondly, in the Arabic text of the Qur’an the word khamr which stands for the word wine and all alcoholic drinks as we know them, is only mentioned in the above verse number 15 from Surah Muhammad as a drink served in Heaven. In all the other verses of the Qur’an, the word “sharab” is used for heavenly drinks, and means any type of drink in Arabic. In some English translations, the word sharab is translated as wine, whereas in Arabic it originates from the word “sherebe” and can be used to mean any non-alcoholic drink as well. One of the Qur’anic verses in which this word is mentioned where it means any drink is:

“Where they will recline, calling for plentiful fruit and drink (sharab)…” (Surah Sad: 51)

“They will wear green garments of fine silk and rich brocade. They will be adorned with silver bracelets. And their Lord will give them to drink of a pure draught (sharab) to drink.” (Surat al-Insan: 21)

Exegesis of Qur’an 56:19 according to the Muslim Commentators
The following are a collection of citations from the early Muslim commentators on the aforementioned verse to supplement Harun Yahya’s explanation. If this proves anything, it shows that missionaries never bother conferring Muslim sources whenever a “contradiction” appears to them.
Ibn Kathir

“la yusadda’un ‘anha wa la yunzifun” — Their heads do not suffer from aches and their minds are not lost; they are even stable in association with extreme enjoyment and pleasant taste. Ad-Dahak related on authority of Ibn Abbas that he said: Wine (khamr) has four characters: intoxication, headache, vomiting and (voiding) urine; Allah (glory be to Him) has mentioned the wine of Paradise and exalted it above these characters. Mujahid, ‘Ikrima, Sa’eed Ibn Jubair, ‘Atiyyah, Qatada and As-Sadi said about “la yusadda’un ‘anha” there is no headache in it. They said about “wa la yunzifun” it means it does not cause loss of mind to them.1

Al-Qurtubi

“la yusadda’un ‘anha” - Their heads do not suffer from aches due to drinking it meaning that it is a pleasure without harm on the contrary of the earthly drink. “wa la yunzifun” - It has been discussed in (Surat) As-Safat and it means that they do not get intoxicated till they lose their minds.2

Imam An-Nasafi

“la yusadda’un ‘anha” - Because of it. The reality of this expression is that it does not cause headache to them or that they are not separated from it. “wa la yunzifun” - They do not get intoxicated. Man has nazaf i.e., his mind is lost due to intoxication.3

As-Suyuti and Al-Mahalli

It means that it does not cause headache or loss of mind to them on the contrary of the earthly wine (khamr).4

Az-Zamakhshari, Al-Baidawi and Ash-Shawkani gave similar statements in their respective tafsir of the Qur’an.5
Conclusions
We have quoted Harun Yahya’s explanation of this so-called “contradiction” and supplemented it with additional citations from the Muslim commentators. Their methodology is consistent with the traditional method of Qur’anic exegesis, i.e., al-Qur’an yufassiru ba’duhu ba’dan (different parts of the Qur’an explain each other). What is given in a general way in one place is discussed in detail in some other place in the Qur’an. What is dealt with briefly at one place is expanded in some other place.
And only God knows best!

Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Vol. 7, p. 330 [back]
Tafsir-ul-Qurtubi, Vol. 17, p. 170 [back]
Tafsir-un-Nasafi, Vol. 2, p. 636 [back]
As-Suyuti and Al-Mahalli, Tafsir-ul-Galalin, p. 516 [back]
See Az-Zamakhshari, Tafsir-ul-Kashaf, Vol. 4, p. 331; Tafsir-ul-Baidawi, Vol. 5, p. 247 and Ash-Shawkani, Fath-ul-Qadir, Vol. 5, p. 199 [back]

SOURCE

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Suffiyan007 · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 07-01-2008

if there a contradiction/something that is distorted verses in Quran why we must recite quran everytime...and learn to read quran anyway...we cant change any single sentences or words or Verses that Allah sent to the "People of the Book"....we should be great and thankful to God who sent mohammad to us...cause the teaching of muhammad in hadith and Quran from God is a present from God...! we should thankful. if Contradiction in Quran there are another prophets will come after Muhammad...No such thing that Quran is contradicted....salam!

Suffiyan007 · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 07-01-2008

God tells we allow to drink wine in paradise..not in the Curse world..i mean where we are now...Drinking Wine is a Satan urine...i have learn from someone..Wine in the world or liquor...that people now drinking in fatwa...making people zinaa,murder, unconsious ,and etc...lotsa bad social attitude.... we will have peace in the hereafter in jannah lotsa excitement include drinking alchoholic in the river of wine in jannah that's not drunk!...

czgibson · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 07-01-2008

Greetings,

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Serene -

Here is an answer to the first post;

I think we all saw that article the first time it was posted...

Peace

**Muhammad** · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 07-01-2008

Greetings czgibson,

I thought this question was answered on the very first page!

The main thing this whole issue boils down to is the fact that this world is incomparable to Paradise.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying that: Allah the Exalted and Glorious, said: I have prepared for My pious servants which no eye has ever seen, and no ear has ever heard, and no human heart has ever perceived but it is testified by the Book of Allah. He then recited:" No soul knows what comfort has been concealed from them, as a reward for what they did". [Muslim]

Hence the wine drunk here is completely different to the wine that will be found in Paradise. They are like two things with the same name but different qualities. This concept can also be understood from the commentary of the following verse,

And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds, that for them will be Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise). Every time they will be provided with a fruit therefrom, they will say: "This is what we were provided with before," and they will be given things in resemblance (i.e. in the same form but different in taste) ... [Al-Baqarah: 25]

Ibn Katheer in his commentary mentions:

Ibn Abi Hatim reported that Yahya bin Abi Kathir said, "The grass of Paradise is made of saffron, its hills from musk and the boys of everlasting youth will serve the believers with fruits which they will eat. They will then be brought similar fruits, and the people of Paradise will comment, `This is the same as what you have just brought us.' The boys will say to them, `Eat, for the color is the same, but the taste is different. Hence Allah's statement,

(and they will be given things in resemblance). Abu Ja`far Ar-Razi narrated that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that,

(and they will be given things in resemblance) means, "They look like each other, but the taste is different.'' Also, `Ikrimah said,

(and they will be given things in resemblance) "They are similar to the fruits of this life, but the fruits of Paradise taste better. '' Sufyan Ath-Thawri reported from Al-A`mash, from Abu Thubyan, that Ibn `Abbas said, "Nothing in Paradise resembles anything in the life of this world, except in name.'' In another narration, Ibn `Abbas said, "Only the names are similar between what is in this life and what is in Paradise.''

In light of this, I cannot see how a vice is becoming a virtue, when the two things are incomparable. Furthermore, the example of "non-harmful heroine" does not seem appropriate as the two are not of the same kind. A person who drinks a small quantity of wine might have gained health benefits and society does not see any problem with this, whereas a person who begins taking even a small amount of heroine is immediately seen through a negative light and has stereotypes attached to them. So it is not as though clear-cut evil prohibited in this world is now suddenly being allowed in Paradise, and this notion of a "massive contradiction" is nothing but a failure to understand basic concepts in Islam.

Lastly, I apologise if any name-calling has taken place and I urge members to refrain from this as it does not help discussions in any way.

Regards.

czgibson · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 07-01-2008

Greetings Muhammad,

Good to talk to you again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhammad

Greetings czgibson,

I thought this question was answered on the very first page!

The main thing this whole issue boils down to is the fact that this world is incomparable to Paradise.

I understand this point, but my question about harmless "heroin" still stands. Something forbidden is still being used as an enticement.

Quote:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying that: Allah the Exalted and Glorious, said: I have prepared for My pious servants which no eye has ever seen, and no ear has ever heard, and no human heart has ever perceived but it is testified by the Book of Allah. He then recited:" No soul knows what comfort has been concealed from them, as a reward for what they did". [Muslim]

This is just deliberate obfuscation, not an argument.

Quote:

In light of this, I cannot see how a vice is becoming a virtue, when the two things are incomparable.

None of what you have said really addresses the question.

Quote:

Furthermore, the example of "non-harmful heroine" does not seem appropriate as the two are not of the same kind. A person who drinks a small quantity of wine might have gained health benefits and society does not see any problem with this, whereas a person who begins taking even a small amount of heroine is immediately seen through a negative light and has stereotypes attached to them.

What about the millions of hospital patients all over the world who are given diamorphine as a painkiller every year? Alcohol and heroin are two of the most dangerous drugs in the world if abused, but they both have considerable benefits as well.

Anyway, none of this detracts from the fact that the two are both substances forbidden to Muslims during their lives (although I'm not sure about the ruling on diamorphine for medical purposes - perhaps Muslims are allowed to have it?), and one of them is used as an enticement to get to paradise. My point is that if it was a harmless version of heroin being advertised in paradise, your argument would be the same.

Quote:

So it is not as though clear-cut evil prohibited in this world is now suddenly being allowed in Paradise, and this notion of a "massive contradiction" is nothing but a failure to understand basic concepts in Islam.

Obviously one or both of us has been conditioned to see this in two different ways. The contradiction looks absolutely clear from where I'm sitting, and no-one has actually even addressed it yet.

Quote:

Lastly, I apologise if any name-calling has taken place and I urge members to refrain from this as it does not help discussions in any way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serene

I know, this is why I'm amazed to see why you cannot even read size 7 writing.

Apparently I can't read now. Thanks for that, "Serene".

Peace

**aamirsaab** · 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by czgibson

Greetings,

There's one aspect of this question that hasn't really been addressed. As Sarada said: How can a vice become a virtue?

Why is it that wine, something that Muslims view as bad and are forbidden from drinking during their lives, is used as one of the enticements of paradise?
.....
Peace

We've sort of covered this point. The question really that should be asked is why the usage of wine in the Quran (given the fact that the wine in paradise described has little in common with the wine on Earth). To which, I personally believe it is either a metaphor or just part of a translation ''error'' in that this is the closest thing to describing it. In any case, I don't think the usage of the word wine is supposed to be literal or even that important overall - it's simply there for us to have some form of understanding the word, so we can gauge an idea of it.

If it is indeed a matter of vice into vertue (I don't have a translation at hand, so cannot verify this), perhaps it is in reference to the arabs at the time, where alcohol/wine etc was consumed heavily - then the ayats were revealed to say: the wine on earth is haram for you, but you can enjoy it in paradise. So if it is an enticement, it is meant for a specific group of people. Of course, this is a big if.

czgibson · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 07-01-2008

Greetings,

Quote:

Originally Posted by aamirsaab

We've sort of covered this point. The question really that should be asked is why the usage of wine in the Quran (given the fact that the wine in paradise described has little in common with the wine on Earth).

That is, of course, a good question, and one that's been discussed already. It still stands, I think.

Quote:

If it is indeed a matter of vice into vertue (I don't have a translation at hand, so cannot verify this), perhaps it is in reference to the arabs at the time, where alcohol/wine etc was consumed heavily - then the ayats were revealed to say: the wine on earth is haram for you, but you can enjoy it in paradise. So if it is an enticement, it is meant for a specific group of people. Of course, this is a big if.

Well, quite. In the light of that, I wonder what a modern-day Muslim is supposed to make of it? Surely wine is something that a Muslim is taught to revile as much as, say, heroin, to use my previous example. To think of it another way, how would you react if the Qur'an later said that "harmless pork" would be on offer in paradise - wouldn't that strike you as being a real contradiction?

Incidentally, thank you for responding with your usual cool-headedness. It's good to be able to discuss these things without getting ourselves wound up needlessly.

Peace

**Muhammad** · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 07-01-2008

Greetings czgibson,

It is also good to speak to you again after the usual period of long silence!

I didn't really understand why my post - or anyone else's for that matter -did not address the question. Just as one cannot compare apples with oranges, why then can one compare worldy wine with heavenly wine and treat them as the same? You said you understood the point of incomparability, yet you continue to make the same mistake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by czgibson

Something forbidden is still being used as an enticement.

Now you say "something forbidden" as opposed to "vice" which you said earlier. The two are not the same. There are other examples of things forbidden to people in this world, yet they will be allowed in Paradise, such as silk for men, having more than four wives and gold cutlery. There is nothing wrong in not being permitted something in this life and being rewarded with it (and something much better) in Paradise. This is simply the command and will of Allaah (swt).

	(#49 (permalink))
czgibson Human Agent Status: Offline Posts: 2,215 Reputation: 5243 Rep Power: 29 Join Date: Jul 2005 Gender: Way of Life: Atheist	Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - 07-01-2008 Greetings, There's one aspect of this question that hasn't really been addressed. As Sarada said: How can a vice become a virtue? Why is it that wine, something that Muslims view as bad and are forbidden from drinking during their lives, is used as one of the enticements of paradise? Fair enough, perhaps the wine in paradise would be different, but isn't that still logically equivalent to having a description of paradise where, say, non-harmful heroin is available? Hypothetically speaking, if that was in Muslim scripture, people here would still be using the same arguments to explain it away. People: disbelievers like me who question this type of thing are not doing it because we're perverse or unable to reason, or whatever other attributes we've kindly been appended with, it's simply because we do see it as a massive contradiction, perhaps one of many. The frequent name-calling that we often get in response to this type of questioning does not actually dispel that impression, or help the discussion in any way. Peace

	(#51 (permalink))
Suffiyan007 cRazy as caTdog Status: Offline Posts: 464 Reputation: 624 Rep Power: 3 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Dangerous World Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - 07-01-2008 if there a contradiction/something that is distorted verses in Quran why we must recite quran everytime...and learn to read quran anyway...we cant change any single sentences or words or Verses that Allah sent to the "People of the Book"....we should be great and thankful to God who sent mohammad to us...cause the teaching of muhammad in hadith and Quran from God is a present from God...! we should thankful. if Contradiction in Quran there are another prophets will come after Muhammad...No such thing that Quran is contradicted....salam!

	(#52 (permalink))
Suffiyan007 cRazy as caTdog Status: Offline Posts: 464 Reputation: 624 Rep Power: 3 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Dangerous World Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - 07-01-2008 God tells we allow to drink wine in paradise..not in the Curse world..i mean where we are now...Drinking Wine is a Satan urine...i have learn from someone..Wine in the world or liquor...that people now drinking in fatwa...making people zinaa,murder, unconsious ,and etc...lotsa bad social attitude.... we will have peace in the hereafter in jannah lotsa excitement include drinking alchoholic in the river of wine in jannah that's not drunk!...

	(#54 (permalink))
Muhammad Slave of Allaah Status: Offline Posts: 4,069 Reputation: 24725 Rep Power: 57 Join Date: Apr 2005 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - 07-01-2008 Greetings czgibson, I thought this question was answered on the very first page! The main thing this whole issue boils down to is the fact that this world is incomparable to Paradise. Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying that: Allah the Exalted and Glorious, said: I have prepared for My pious servants which no eye has ever seen, and no ear has ever heard, and no human heart has ever perceived but it is testified by the Book of Allah. He then recited:" No soul knows what comfort has been concealed from them, as a reward for what they did". [Muslim] Hence the wine drunk here is completely different to the wine that will be found in Paradise. They are like two things with the same name but different qualities. This concept can also be understood from the commentary of the following verse, And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds, that for them will be Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise). Every time they will be provided with a fruit therefrom, they will say: "This is what we were provided with before," and they will be given things in resemblance (i.e. in the same form but different in taste) ... [Al-Baqarah: 25] Ibn Katheer in his commentary mentions: Ibn Abi Hatim reported that Yahya bin Abi Kathir said, "The grass of Paradise is made of saffron, its hills from musk and the boys of everlasting youth will serve the believers with fruits which they will eat. They will then be brought similar fruits, and the people of Paradise will comment, `This is the same as what you have just brought us.' The boys will say to them, `Eat, for the color is the same, but the taste is different. Hence Allah's statement, *(and they will be given things in resemblance). Abu Ja`far Ar-Razi narrated that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that, (and they will be given things in resemblance)* means, "They look like each other, but the taste is different.'' Also, `Ikrimah said, *(and they will be given things in resemblance)* "They are similar to the fruits of this life, but the fruits of Paradise taste better. '' Sufyan Ath-Thawri reported from Al-A`mash, from Abu Thubyan, that Ibn `Abbas said, "Nothing in Paradise resembles anything in the life of this world, except in name.'' In another narration, Ibn `Abbas said, "Only the names are similar between what is in this life and what is in Paradise.'' In light of this, I cannot see how a vice is becoming a virtue, when the two things are incomparable. Furthermore, the example of "non-harmful heroine" does not seem appropriate as the two are not of the same kind. A person who drinks a small quantity of wine might have gained health benefits and society does not see any problem with this, whereas a person who begins taking even a small amount of heroine is immediately seen through a negative light and has stereotypes attached to them. So it is not as though clear-cut evil prohibited in this world is now suddenly being allowed in Paradise, and this notion of a "massive contradiction" is nothing but a failure to understand basic concepts in Islam. Lastly, I apologise if any name-calling has taken place and I urge members to refrain from this as it does not help discussions in any way. Regards. __________________ *{...And indeed it is a Book of exalted power. No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise.*} [Fussilat: 41-42] Islamic Newsletters:** http://www.islamleicester.com/Conten...7/Default.aspx If I make a mistake then please correct me, and if I have said something wrong then please forgive me.