Alleged Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - Page 6

Keltoi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

I don't know what the 'christian concept' is of a reward in heaven, perhaps wondering around like a ghost eternally? be that as it may, it is already said in Volume 9, Book 93, Number 589:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
the Prophet said, "Allah said, "I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things) as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.' "

which should lead one to conclude that whatever is mentioned is extremely minor by examining worldy resemblances....

But then, I myself have no understood certain christian concepts, like priesthood, corporal mortification, drinking or eating Jesus in church, so I suppose to each his own!

I'll take heavenly wine over punishing one's own body or depriving it of what it primal when lawful as a spiritual discipline!

peace

So you don't understand why it seems like a moral paradox? One abstains from things in life so that they might experience them in the afterlife? I suppose from my point of view it seems too involved with fleshly desires and wants.

I understand very well that there are concepts in every religion some people can't get their heads around, and I suppose for me this would be one.

Skye Ephémérine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keltoi

So you don't understand why it seems like a moral paradox? One abstains from things in life so that they might experience them in the afterlife? I suppose from my point of view it seems too involved with fleshly desires and wants.

Drinking wine isn't a 'moral issue' which by definition is 'Concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong' it is a mere prohibition.. like 'the apple from the garden' do you think eating apples is morally reprehensible? or do you think that your child taking a cookie from the jar before dinner when you've forbidden him from doing so is evil? Do you think a surgeon scrubbing each surface of his fingers 4 times as opposed to five is immoral? It is nothing more than guidelines the protocols set by which we are to live our lives. Someone might contend that there is no risk for infection if you scrub four times each plane as opposed to four for a total of 25 strokes over 30 if you in turn double glove, but, if you are caught and you'll be caught not following protocols you'll be barred from practice. Same with cookies, apples or even wine!
and I quote the Hadith

That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honor, but he who falls into doubtful matters falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which, if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart."

Quote:

I understand very well that there are concepts in every religion some people can't get their heads around, and I suppose for me this would be one.

Ok!

peace

aadil77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keltoi

So you don't understand why it seems like a moral paradox? One abstains from things in life so that they might experience them in the afterlife? I suppose from my point of view it seems too involved with fleshly desires and wants.

I understand very well that there are concepts in every religion some people can't get their heads around, and I suppose for me this would be one.

I suppose you're reffering to wine in the afterlife, its already been said that wine will not be intoxicating in paradise so you won't be experiencing the same thing, as there is nothing bad/negative in heaven. As for the desires and wants, they will be pure, so nothing dirty.

Again the hereafter is nothing we can imagine, so don't expect yourself to get your head around this one

edit: haven't read the whole thread so may have missed something

Chuck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keltoi

So you don't understand why it seems like a moral paradox? One abstains from things in life so that they might experience them in the afterlife? I suppose from my point of view it seems too involved with fleshly desires and wants.

I understand very well that there are concepts in every religion some people can't get their heads around, and I suppose for me this would be one.

There is a context. It is similar to asking why it is wrong to read from a book during an exam but not outside of exam. If a person just gonna look at reading issue it would look like a paradox but when one understands the reasons it doesn't. In Islam moral regulations are there for a reason. This world is mainly a test and for that reason God has made humans and other things a certain way with harm vs good. For example, wine is mainly prohibited because it makes person loss sense, lose control, and can do stupid things when drunk. It is also addictive. It has some benefits but it comes with harm.

God will destroy this world and recreate into another, and change the nature of of things, even likes and dislikes of humans, and remove the harm from those things which are here made for a test. For example, wine in paradise will not make lose sense no matter how much one will drink it. For example, there will be no jealousy in paradise. God will remove it from the nature of people in there. The nature of everything will be different. Message is very simple, God has made this world for a test and there are restrictrictions and regulations to test who is better in deeds. When this test is over, God will give humans much better than they can imagine for their patience and sacrifices in this temporary period world. But even in this world rules and regulations of God have benefits even though in sometimes they are not visible on the surface as the following verses describe:

Quote:

(Allah) Most Gracious!
It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.
He has created man:
He has taught him speech (and intelligence).
The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed;
And the herbs and the trees - both (alike) prostrate in adoration.
And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice),
In order that ye may not transgress (due) balance.
So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance.
[Quran 055:1-9]

The above verse has a deep meaning how things work in this world. As far as paradise is concerned, no body will cheat there and everything people would need there will be in abundance. You cannot compare how things work here and how things will work in the next life. Experiences will be totally different. However, message is clear that next world is better with no restriction yet without the harms and limitations people face in this world.

What would be the living in paradise like in Christian understanding?

Keltoi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck

There is a context. It is similar to asking why it is wrong to read from a book during an exam but not outside of exam. If a person just gonna look at reading issue it would look like a paradox but when one understands the reasons it doesn't. In Islam moral regulations are there for a reason. This world is mainly a test and for that reason God has made humans and other things a certain way with harm vs good. For example, wine is mainly prohibited because it makes person loss sense, lose control, and can do stupid things when drunk. It is also addictive. It has some benefits but it comes with harm.

God will destroy this world and recreate into another, and change the nature of of things, even likes and dislikes of humans, and remove the harm from those things which are here made for a test. For example, wine in paradise will not make lose sense no matter how much one will drink it. For example, there will be no jealousy in paradise. God will remove it from the nature of people in there. The nature of everything will be different. Message is very simple, God has made this world for a test and there are restrictrictions and regulations to test who is better in deeds. When this test is over, God will give humans much better than they can imagine for their patience and sacrifices in this temporary period world. But even in this world rules and regulations of God have benefits even though in sometimes they are not visible on the surface as the following verses describe:

The above verse has a deep meaning how things work in this world. As far as paradise is concerned, no body will cheat there and everything people would need there will be in abundance. You cannot compare how things work here and how things will work in the next life. Experiences will be totally different. However, message is clear that next world is better with no restriction yet without the harms and limitations people face in this world.

What would be the living in paradise like in Christian understanding?

The descriptions of Heaven are rather vague, although what is mentioned over and over again is eternal life in the light of God. To be in the presence of God would be the ultimate gift.

"He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; and there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:3-4).

There is no promise of "physical" pleasures, only the promise of eternal life and the peace that comes in the presence of God. I suppose that would be the major difference here, and the reason why promises of physical delights, like wine drinking and sexual rewards, seem odd to me. I'm not judging it, only reflecting on the differences between Islam and Christianity on the issue of eternal reward.

Skye Ephémérine

You should read a bit more about the Islamic concept of paradise then, since yours seem very abbreviated by comparison.

Quote:

The human mind is a true marvel, but in certain areas it is limited. God is different from anything the human mind can think of or imagine, so the mind will become confused if it tries to picture God. Nevertheless, it is possible to understand the attributes of God that do not require one to make any mental pictures of Him. For example, one of God’s names is al-Ghaffar, which means He forgives all sins. Everyone can understand this easily because that is how the human mind can think of God. Jewish and Christian teachings on God are confused partly because of incorrect understanding of this issue. The Jewish Torah teaches God is like man,

“Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…so God made man in His own image.’” (Genesis 1:26-27)

Moreover, certain churches contain statues or images of an old white bearded man depicting God. Some of these were produced by the likes of Michelangelo who depicted the Face and Hand of a god – a tough looking old man - in paintings.

Rendering images of God in Islam is an impossibility, and amounts to disbelief, as God tells us in the Quran that nothing resembles Him:

“There is nothing like Him, but He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.” (Quran 42:11)

“There is nothing comparable to Him.” (Quran 112:4)

The Request of Moses to See God
Eyes can not bear the vision of God. He tells us in the Quran:

“Vision cannot grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision.” (Quran 6:103)

Moses, to whom God spoke and gave great miracles, was chosen by God to be His Prophet. It is said that he thought that, since God used to speak to him, he might be able to actually see God. The story is in the Quran, where God tells us what happened:

“And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show me (Yourself) that I may look at You.’ (God) said, ‘You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.’ But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, ‘Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.’” (Quran 7:143)

God made it clear that no-one, including the great prophet Moses, can bear the sight of the divine, for God is too great to be grasped by human eyes in this life. According to the Quran, Moses realized his request was in error; therefore, he sought forgiveness from God for having asked.

Did Prophet Muhammad See God In This Life?
Prophet Muhammad traveled in a miraculous journey through the heavens and met God. People thought that since Prophet Muhammad spoke to God in that journey, he probably saw God too. One of the companions, Abu Dahrr, asked him about it. The Prophet replied:

“There was only light, how could I see Him?” (Saheeh Muslim)

What was the light he saw? The Prophet explained:

“Surely, God does not sleep nor is it befitting for Him to sleep. He is the one who lowers the scales and raises them. The deeds of the night go up to Him before the deeds of the day and those of the day before those of the night, and His veil is light.” (Saheeh Muslim)

Visions of God in Spiritual Experiences
Some people, including some who claim to be Muslims, report spiritual experiences where they claim to have seen God. Common reported experiences also include seeing light, or a magnificent being seated on a throne. In the case of Muslims, such an experience is usually accompanied by dropping basic Islamic practices like salah and fasting, under the mistaken opinion that such practices are only for common people who had not had their type of experience.

So what does Islam teach about this? Islam teaches us that it is Satan who pretends to be God to deceive ignorant people who believe in such experiences and go astray. One of the fundamental foundations of Islam is that the law revealed to Prophet Muhammad cannot be changed or canceled. God neither makes lawful for some what He has made unlawful for others, nor does He communicate His Law through such experiences to people. Rather, divine law is revealed through the proper channel of revelation to the prophets, a channel that was closed after the advent of the prophet Muhammad, the last of God’s prophets.

Seeing God in Afterlife
In Islamic doctrine, God cannot be seen in this life, but the believers will see God in the next life; even then, God will not be grasped in totality. This is stated clearly in the Quran and the Sunnah. The Prophet said,

“The Day Of Resurrection is the first day any eye will look at God, the Mighty and Exalted.”[1]

Describing the events of Resurrection Day, God states in the Quran:

“On that day some faces will be bright, looking at their Lord.” (Quran 75:22-23)

The Prophet was asked if we will see God on the Day of resurrection. He replied, “Are you harmed by looking at the moon when it is full?”[2] ‘No,’ they replied. Then he said, “Surely, you will see Him likewise.” In another hadith the Prophet said, “Surely, each of you will see God on the day when you shall meet Him, and there will be no veil or translator between Him and you.”[3] Seeing God will be a favor that is additional to Paradise on the people who will dwell therein. As a matter of fact, the joy of seeing God for a believer will be greater than the all the joys of Paradise combined together. The unbelievers, on the other hand, will be deprived of seeing God, and this will be greater punishment for them than all the pain and suffering of Hell combined together.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/331/

Chuck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keltoi

The descriptions of Heaven are rather vague, although what is mentioned over and over again is eternal life in the light of God. To be in the presence of God would be the ultimate gift.

"He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; and there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:3-4).

There is no promise of "physical" pleasures, only the promise of eternal life and the peace that comes in the presence of God. I suppose that would be the major difference here, and the reason why promises of physical delights, like wine drinking and sexual rewards, seem odd to me. I'm not judging it, only reflecting on the differences between Islam and Christianity on the issue of eternal reward.

Light of God is the ultimate delight in Islam too for the people in paradise. Gift is a delight, a gift without delight is no gift in real terms. As far as sex is concerned, sex is gift from God in Islam in this world too, but it has regulations. Highest ranking Imam doesn't have to abstain from sex in Islam to better in the sight of God, but he only has to follow the prescribed way.

Keltoi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck

Light of God is the ultimate delight in Islam too for the people in paradise. Gift is a delight, a gift without delight is no gift in real terms. As far as sex is concerned, sex is gift from God in Islam in this world too, but it has regulations. Highest ranking Imam doesn't have to abstain from sex in Islam to better in the sight of God, but he only has to follow the prescribed way.

Yes, I wasn't intending to suggest sex by its nature is sinful. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that in the Islamic Paradise women are created by God for the express purpose of sexual gratification? I didn't read that on a website or anything, it was actually suggested to me by a Muslim co-worker. If he was wrong then I stand corrected.

Skye Ephémérine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keltoi

Yes, I wasn't intending to suggest sex by its nature is sinful. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that in the Islamic Paradise women are created by God for the express purpose of sexual gratification? I didn't read that on a website or anything, it was actually suggested to me by a Muslim co-worker. If he was wrong then I stand corrected.

those are 'hoor ayn' and there is nothing in the Quran to express that they are 'women only' that is, the term denotes ones who possess big lustrous eyes.. can encompass either gender actually, though scholars are divided on that..

so what that there will be companions in heaven of special creation for the purpose of the pleasure of the believers?

cheers

FatimaAsSideqah

This is clearly wrong.

The parable of Paradise, which the God-fearing are promised: In it are rivers of incorruptible water, rivers of milk of which the taste never deteriorates, rivers of wine of joyous taste for the drinkers, and rivers of clear and pure honey. In it, shall they be bestowed all kinds of fruits and [complete] forgiveness from their Lord. Are they like him who is to dwell forever in fire and shall be given boiling water, which shall cut-up their bowels? (47:15)

wine is forbidden by the Qur’an, but only is it shall be served to the pious believers in the Hereafter.

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	(#85 (permalink))
FatimaAsSideqah Status: Offline Posts: 3,627 Reputation: 10328 Rep Power: 33 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Journey to Akhirah, Insha'Allah! Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Alleged Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - 10-04-2008 This is clearly wrong. The parable of Paradise, which the God-fearing are promised: In it are rivers of incorruptible water, rivers of milk of which the taste never deteriorates, rivers of wine of joyous taste for the drinkers, and rivers of clear and pure honey. In it, shall they be bestowed all kinds of fruits and [complete] forgiveness from their Lord. Are they like him who is to dwell forever in fire and shall be given boiling water, which shall cut-up their bowels? (47:15) wine is forbidden by the Qur’an, but only is it shall be served to the pious believers in the Hereafter. __________________