Greetings,

I think this comes closest to what I mean. Apologies, Muhammad and aamirsaab - I'm obviously not making myself clear here.

The nub of the matter is this: why would a Muslim find wine (of whatever kind) appealing?

Peace

How many times have the same questions been answered over and over. Its to the point now where either you believe or disbelieve because all the facts have been clearly layed out. I think all the kuffar on this thread are being very illogical and hard headed and they need to look at things with an open mind rather that looking to find faults in everything.

The kuffar are illogical?
The Quran tempts followers to paradise with things that are forbidden on earth. In paradise these things are completely different to anything on earth and beyond our mere human senses, but we'll try describe them and give them a specific name, something that muslims can relate to except for the fact this thing is haraam so they've never experienced it anyway but that doesn't matter because it shares no properties with the thing we're comparing it to (except possibly that it's wet).

Are you telling me that God can't think of a better way to describe things and that this is clear and precise and comprehensible by all?

You will see things more clearly once you remove this feeling of thinking that islam is all about proving the kuffar wrong all the time infact it only offers help for those who are lost in this wilderness,tricked and blinded to the core.

First and foremost the wine on earth is an intoxicant some of my caucasian friends they say it tastes good and theres nothing better than a can of beer on a hot summers day,listening to this there is obviously some temptation(from the shaytan) but islam teaches me to stay resistant and patient ,if i succesfully do this then i will be eligible to consume wine that doesnt intoxicate me and doesnt make me crazy

Anybody that doesnt even have two brain cells to rub toghether will find this illogical

What some people dont know and this is when alil research will do alot for those who are filled with anger,is that the arabs used to drink alcohol freely and then allah abolished the consume of alcohol,some guys who were dependant on this junk became alittle angry,so therefore allah says stop the alcohol and keep a fresh mind,pray the five times and after you do everything that is ordered from you then you will get you're wine but in heaven and it will not intoxicate you !!! but it will taste so sweet


You refrain from using something dangerous,even though you like it and dont know what harm its doing to you then you will get an alternative thats similar in just the name but content wise there cannot be any comparsions

You're just restating the problem, maybe if you read the thread again our questions will make more sense.

what is exactly the problem? I don't really see any point except being argumentative. Some might like it and some don't, maybe all would like what they taste in paradise without any kind of problems. That would be a gift from God.

Hmm. I don't know. But then I guess your follow up would be why call it wine, in which case it's either a metaphor, a literal sense targeted at those who wish to drink wine (say, the arabs at the time of the verses revelation) or it is a type of wine (which we've covered).


It is rather clear, precise and comprehensible. The only thing that seems to be confusing people about these verses is the usage of wine - which I've given 3 seperate possibilities for (though, only one has been backed up via a scholar's translation - so I'd put my bet on that one).

Greetings,

If the wine is not like the wine in this world, and is among the countless things in Paradise that confer endless delight, why wouldn't a Muslim find it appealing?

You are going round in circles. Who said that the things in Paradise are comprehensible by all? You said yourself, "In paradise these things are completely different to anything on earth and beyond our mere human senses". The illogicality arises in not willing to accept such a simple concept.

Regards.

In your previous post you said:
"This suggest that the Quran is indeed speaking of a type of wine as opposed to wine itself."
Forgive me but I just don't see how this sentence makes any sense.
Wine is wine by virtue of the ingredients and the process of fermentation to produce alcohol.
There's a perfectly good name for drinks that haven't been made that way: fruit juice. Better yet, just pick any other name because it's not like anything we know, and it's absolutely nothing like wine so maybe a name that better reflects that?
You might as well say that in Paradise you can eat pork, but it's pork that comes from a chicken and tastes like pineapple.
I'm not talking about Paradise, I'm talking about the Quran being clear. By the way, if a place that is totally beyond human comprehension and senses is a simple concept then I take my hat off to you

I also stated that a scholar views the usage of wine as a metaphor. So I would take his stance over mine. Why it is referred to (in the Quran) as wine may have something to do with the arabic language (or for the reasons I gave previously) - though I cannot comment with certainty as my own view point is merely conjecture based on the english translation of the Quran. I haven't studied the arabic version to the limited extent I have done of the english translation.

There is nothing in the verses to be taken as a metaphor,

exactly ,by using the word (khamr) suggests that such wine is a real wine in form but

1-Tasty and a Joy

047.015
YUSUFALI: (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord.


2- white,free from the negative effects of world wine(talking in vain ,offenses:

052.023

SHAKIR: They shall pass therein from one to another a cup wherein there

shall be nothing vain nor any sin.

Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain,
Crystal-white, of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof), Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom.

sure the verses is not talking about fruit-juice , it is a real ,tasty ,white wine,free from negative effects .

قال ابن عباس: في الخمر أربع خصال: السكر، والصداع، والقيء ، والبول، فذكر الله خمر الجنة فنزهها عن هذه الخصال

Greetings,

How does making mention of wine that is unlike any wine consumed on earth detract from the Qur'an's clarity? This has nothing to do with the Qur'an's clarity, rather it seems you have a problem with the concept of two things being very different but sharing the same name. For instance, Allaah (swt) has told us that He has a Hand, but obviously His Hand is unlike the human hand. Does that mean there is a contradiction or lack of clarity? No! This concept is even seen elsewhere, for example, a clock has hands, yet those hands are very different to human hands.

What is the difficulty in accepting a place beyond human comprehension? This is a straightforward description, but I think you are making it difficult for yourself by seeking more details of something that is at the outset beyond imagination and worldly experience.

post # 32

post #36
enough said on the subject?

Just as a personal opinion, and not as a debating point, I find the concept of the Islamic view of Paradise to be the biggest stumbling block for me. Perhaps it is my Christian understanding of Heaven, but I cannot imagine God rewarding people with wine, women, or whatever else is described. Honestly it sounds like a moral paradox. That isn't an attack or anything, just my sincere line of thought on the matter.