Alleged Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - Page 2

Sarada · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-23-2008

It seems most of you have slightly differing explanations. You all agree that this is not a contradiction, but, I have not yet seen a logical explanation. Surely, when one is in paradise, one should still obey Islamic Laws. Why would there be one law for this life, and another for the afterlife? Is virtue not an absolute quality? How can a vice become a virtue?

**aamirsaab** · 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarada

It seems most of you have slightly differing explanations. You all agree that this is not a contradiction, but, I have not yet seen a logical explanation. Surely, when one is in paradise, one should still obey Islamic Laws. Why would there be one law for this life, and another for the afterlife? Is virtue not an absolute quality? How can a vice become a virtue?

The large majority of Islamic laws are all there to help society. Essentially, the laws (like all laws actually) are based entirely on negative reinforcement; you follow them to prevent something ''bad'' happening. In paradise, since our psychological (and biological for that matter) make up will be different and we will be free from several emotions such as greed, animosity, anger etc. there will be no need for Islamic laws or any law system. You will ascertain complete control.

Think of it as two seperate worlds: we have this one which is based on rules for our limited and imperfect body, and we have heaven which removes (seemingly all) rules because our body will be perfect in every sense of the word. And this coupled with the lack of any negative emotion will lead to a blissfull experience.

Azy · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saifur-Rahmaan

In Jannat however, wine will not have these bad qualities as it does in the dunya. Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta'alaa) mentions:

"..A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them, White, delicious to the drinkers, Wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby..." (37:45-47)

Where does it say that this spring is wine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Serene -

The wine in Jannah will be for pleasure only, not to intoxicate the person.

Forgive me if I've missed something but where does it say it will not intoxicate? I can only see references to it being made to smell nice.

If it is as SixTen said, similar in name only, why call it wine at all? It doesn't taste like wine, it doesn't intoxicate, why would anyone describe this as wine since the name is misleading and gives no indication as to the properties of the drink mentioned?

Chuck · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azy

If it is as SixTen said, similar in name only, why call it wine at all? It doesn't taste like wine, it doesn't intoxicate, why would anyone describe this as wine since the name is misleading and gives no indication as to the properties of the drink mentioned?

Because it will be a wine of different kind? Btw, it does mention one main difference in its properties -- it doesn't intoxicate.

------ · 09:38 AM

Here is an answer to the first post;

Quote:

Wine - Good or Bad?

14 October 2005
Hesham Azmy & Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
We read the missionary claim regarding this supposed “contradiction” as follows:

Is wine good or bad? Is us forbidden on earth something that is truly good? Or is in Paradise not only allowed but provided in overflowing measures (rivers of…) something that is so bad that it is even called “Satan’s handiwork”?

Response
We believe that there can be no substitute for the ignorance exhibited, and that these concocted “problems” of the Christian missionaries is due to their sheer inability of understanding how tafsir is performed. In response to this alleged “contradiction” in the aforementioned verses, we would like to cite Harun Yahya’s “How Do The Unwise Interpret The Qur’an?” in order for the issue to be duly addressed:

Wine-drinking in Heaven

One of the topics unwise people portray as a contradiction is how wine is served in Heaven when it is forbidden in this world. The verse that they use to make their claim reads:

“An image of the Garden which is promised to those who have fear for God: in it there are rivers of water which will never spoil and rivers of milk whose taste will never change and rivers of wine, delightful to all who drink it, and rivers of honey of undiluted purity; in it they will have fruit of every kind and forgiveness from their Lord. Is that like those who will be in the Fire timelessly, for ever, with boiling water to drink which lacerates their bowels?” (Surah Muhammad: 15)

As previously explained, this type of error of perception occurs when one is prejudiced, deliberately perverse, unable to reason, and has not grasped the Qur’an as a whole. Now, let us examine why such a thoughtless claim is illogical and baseless from several angles:
First of all, we are able to see that there is a difference between the drink served in Heaven and the one of this world from the following verse:

“With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication.” (Surat al-Waqi’ah: 18-19)

As can be seen, the drinks served in Heaven do not have any of the negative effects and attributes that alcoholic drinks in this world do. As mentioned in the verse, they do not cause headaches or confuse the mind. This means that even though they give pleasure, they do not in any way cause drunkenness or illness. So there is not the least inconsistency in such a drink being offered in Heaven.
Alcoholic drinks in this world, on the other hand, have always been portrayed in the Qur’an together with their many damaging and harmful attributes. Some of the verses that describe the destructive and negative nature of alcoholic drinks in this world are:

“You who have faith! Wine and gambling, stone altars and divining arrows are filth from the handiwork of Satan. Avoid them completely so that hopefully you will be successful. Satan wants to stir up enmity and hatred between you by means of wine and gambling, and to debar you from remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not then give them up?” (Surat al-Ma’idah: 90-91)

“They will ask you about wine and gambling. Say, ‘There is great sin in both of them and also certain benefits for mankind. But the sin in them is greater than the benefit.’” (Surat al-Baqarah: 219)

Obviously, it cannot be expected that characteristics of drinks that are forbidden in this world could exist in Heavenly ones. As God describes the Heavenly drinks, He emphasizes once more that they do not contain the harmful attributes of those in this world:

“…a cup from a flowing spring passing round among them, as white as driven snow, delicious to those who drink, which has no headache in it and does not leave them stupefied.” (Surat as-Saffat: 45-47)

The logic of anyone who sees this topic as a contradiction when God has made it all so clear must be seriously doubted. It is one of the Qur’an’s miracles that when a person approaches it with ignorance and ulterior motives, he will be incapable of understanding even the most obvious of topics. God describes the case of such a person in one of His verses:

“No self can have faith except with God’s permission. He places a blight on those who do not use their intellect.” (Surah Yunus: 100)

Secondly, in the Arabic text of the Qur’an the word khamr which stands for the word wine and all alcoholic drinks as we know them, is only mentioned in the above verse number 15 from Surah Muhammad as a drink served in Heaven. In all the other verses of the Qur’an, the word “sharab” is used for heavenly drinks, and means any type of drink in Arabic. In some English translations, the word sharab is translated as wine, whereas in Arabic it originates from the word “sherebe” and can be used to mean any non-alcoholic drink as well. One of the Qur’anic verses in which this word is mentioned where it means any drink is:

“Where they will recline, calling for plentiful fruit and drink (sharab)…” (Surah Sad: 51)

“They will wear green garments of fine silk and rich brocade. They will be adorned with silver bracelets. And their Lord will give them to drink of a pure draught (sharab) to drink.” (Surat al-Insan: 21)

Exegesis of Qur’an 56:19 according to the Muslim Commentators
The following are a collection of citations from the early Muslim commentators on the aforementioned verse to supplement Harun Yahya’s explanation. If this proves anything, it shows that missionaries never bother conferring Muslim sources whenever a “contradiction” appears to them.
Ibn Kathir

“la yusadda’un ‘anha wa la yunzifun” — Their heads do not suffer from aches and their minds are not lost; they are even stable in association with extreme enjoyment and pleasant taste. Ad-Dahak related on authority of Ibn Abbas that he said: Wine (khamr) has four characters: intoxication, headache, vomiting and (voiding) urine; Allah (glory be to Him) has mentioned the wine of Paradise and exalted it above these characters. Mujahid, ‘Ikrima, Sa’eed Ibn Jubair, ‘Atiyyah, Qatada and As-Sadi said about “la yusadda’un ‘anha” there is no headache in it. They said about “wa la yunzifun” it means it does not cause loss of mind to them.1

Al-Qurtubi

“la yusadda’un ‘anha” - Their heads do not suffer from aches due to drinking it meaning that it is a pleasure without harm on the contrary of the earthly drink. “wa la yunzifun” - It has been discussed in (Surat) As-Safat and it means that they do not get intoxicated till they lose their minds.2

Imam An-Nasafi

“la yusadda’un ‘anha” - Because of it. The reality of this expression is that it does not cause headache to them or that they are not separated from it. “wa la yunzifun” - They do not get intoxicated. Man has nazaf i.e., his mind is lost due to intoxication.3

As-Suyuti and Al-Mahalli

It means that it does not cause headache or loss of mind to them on the contrary of the earthly wine (khamr).4

Az-Zamakhshari, Al-Baidawi and Ash-Shawkani gave similar statements in their respective tafsir of the Qur’an.5
Conclusions
We have quoted Harun Yahya’s explanation of this so-called “contradiction” and supplemented it with additional citations from the Muslim commentators. Their methodology is consistent with the traditional method of Qur’anic exegesis, i.e., al-Qur’an yufassiru ba’duhu ba’dan (different parts of the Qur’an explain each other). What is given in a general way in one place is discussed in detail in some other place in the Qur’an. What is dealt with briefly at one place is expanded in some other place.
And only God knows best!

Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Vol. 7, p. 330 [back]
Tafsir-ul-Qurtubi, Vol. 17, p. 170 [back]
Tafsir-un-Nasafi, Vol. 2, p. 636 [back]
As-Suyuti and Al-Mahalli, Tafsir-ul-Galalin, p. 516 [back]
See Az-Zamakhshari, Tafsir-ul-Kashaf, Vol. 4, p. 331; Tafsir-ul-Baidawi, Vol. 5, p. 247 and Ash-Shawkani, Fath-ul-Qadir, Vol. 5, p. 199 [back]

SOURCE

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Disbelievers/challengers of the Qur'aan, eat your heart out!! [if thats the phrase lol]

**Al Habeshi** · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarada

It seems most of you have slightly differing explanations. You all agree that this is not a contradiction, but, I have not yet seen a logical explanation. Surely, when one is in paradise, one should still obey Islamic Laws. Why would there be one law for this life, and another for the afterlife? Is virtue not an absolute quality? How can a vice become a virtue?

As much as I have been trying to keep out of this thread I had to respond. Why do you make the above assumption? Surely, when one is in paradise, one should still obey Islamic Laws.

Why would there be one law for this life, and another for the afterlife? Maybe due to the fact that this life and the next life are drastically different, for example, this life is a test, Allah tests us through differnt means in this life, whereas the next life is not a test. So why would there need to be the obeying of the same laws. That is point one.

Point two, some laws are to prevent immorality/sins, in paradise there will be none.

Point three, if one takes the haram out of a situation the situation is not haram, if I have a ham sandwich the sandwhich may be haram, but if I make another sandwich without the ham, then it is not haram. Similarly, does it not make sense that if one takes the haram parts out of a substance it seazes to be haram?

I don't see how that does not make sense, and Almighty God knows best.

Azy · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck

Because it will be a wine of different kind? Btw, it does mention one main difference in its properties -- it doesn't intoxicate.

The text says no drinks will intoxicate, and that the smell and taste of wine will be different, which are really the only reasons anyone drinks it, those properties define a drink particularly one like wine.

If you took all the sugar and caffeine and colourings and flavourings out of Coke and replaced them with orange juice, would it make sense to still call it Coke?

------ · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-24-2008

So you drink wine to knock yourself out and totally go out of it?

Looooooooollllllll........... ahahahahahahaha

Allaah knows what our desires are and they will be fulfilled in Jannah! InshaaAllaah!

Azy · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-24-2008

It seems you've entered into foreign territory so you've decided the best course of action is ridicule and misrepresentation to cover the fact you don't know what you're talking about.
Also you never addressed the point.

------ · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-24-2008

Well u know what it is right? With you, there is always some thing or another that just leads to ridiculing, because ur so daymn make it out as ur so innocent! Which ur not! Ur here to ridicule OUR beliefs - you carry on doing that, coz wallaahi (I swear by Allaah) that on the Day of Judgement I will be SO glad seeing you dragged upon ur face into the hell fire!!

Getting back on topic; This (Alleged Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad?) post answers your question by the way.

And do you seriously think that wine in Heaven will be like wine on earth?! NO! It won't! The only reason why God has described things in Paradise to us in these words is because we are familiar with them! But in Jannah will be something that no eye has ever seen or no ear has ever heard!

Good luck!

NYCmuslim · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-24-2008

We should keep in mind not to take the descriptions of heaven too literally. The akhira is out of the reaches of our earthly perception and senses. The descriptions given in the Quran of heaven (and hell) are there to connect to our current senses and give us an idea of how blissful or tormenting the afterlife is.

Peace

Azy · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Serene -

Well u know what it is right? With you, there is always some thing or another that just leads to ridiculing, because ur so daymn make it out as ur so innocent! Which ur not! Ur here to ridicule OUR beliefs

Which makes it ok to ridicule others?

Seriously though that's not what I come here for. Questioning other people helps me get to the root of what I really think and why I think it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Serene -

you carry on doing that, coz wallaahi (I swear by Allaah) that on the Day of Judgement I will be SO glad seeing you dragged upon ur face into the hell fire!!

Bit malicious that ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Serene -

Getting back on topic; This (Alleged Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad?) post answers your question by the way.
And do you seriously think that wine in Heaven will be like wine on earth?! NO! It won't! The only reason why God has described things in Paradise to us in these words is because we are familiar with them! But in Jannah will be something that no eye has ever seen or no ear has ever heard!

Doesn't really answer the question, partly but not quite.

Seems very odd that the drinks in heaven are described in terms of drinks on earth that no muslim should have experienced. I just don't understand the point of describing something that's not the same as the word you're using and none of your followers have ever drunk anyway.

------ · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-24-2008

Because it's something made for paradise for believers pleasure NOT for this earth and for disbelievers pleasure.

How do u expect God to reward people that dont even believe in Him?!

**aamirsaab** · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azy

The text says no drinks will intoxicate, and that the smell and taste of wine will be different, which are really the only reasons anyone drinks it, those properties define a drink particularly one like wine.

If you took all the sugar and caffeine and colourings and flavourings out of Coke and replaced them with orange juice, would it make sense to still call it Coke?

Perhaps it is called wine in the Quran simply so we can relate to it. I mean, if it was called Dr Pepper or something, people wouldn't understand what it meant - alternatively, it could simply mean that: ''yeah it's wine without all the bad'' (hence the lack of intoxicant and smell etc).

Overall though, I think nycmuslim's post was quite succint: we shouldn't take the description too literally. None of us have been there and tasted it ;)

Azy · **Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? -** 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by aamirsaab

Perhaps it is called wine in the Quran simply so we can relate to it.

This is exactly what I'm talking about... can you relate to it? As a muslim surely the answer would be no.

I do think you're right that it's meant to be more of a metaphorical description, it's just the choice of words seems very strange to me.

	(#16 (permalink))
Sarada LI Senior Member Status: Offline Posts: 204 Reputation: 1117 Rep Power: 10 Join Date: Aug 2007 Way of Life: Undisclosed	Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - 06-23-2008 It seems most of you have slightly differing explanations. You all agree that this is not a contradiction, but, I have not yet seen a logical explanation. Surely, when one is in paradise, one should still obey Islamic Laws. Why would there be one law for this life, and another for the afterlife? Is virtue not an absolute quality? How can a vice become a virtue? __________________ "The will of a single hero can breathe courage into the hearts of a million cowards " (Sri Aurobindo, 1920) All the best, Sarada

	(#23 (permalink))
------ Account Disabled Status: Offline Posts: 1 Reputation: 0 Rep Power: 0 Join Date: Mar 2006 Way of Life: Undisclosed	Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - 06-24-2008 So you drink wine to knock yourself out and totally go out of it? Looooooooollllllll........... ahahahahahahaha Allaah knows what our desires are and they will be fulfilled in Jannah! InshaaAllaah!

	(#24 (permalink))
Azy LI Senior Member Status: Offline Posts: 331 Reputation: 238 Rep Power: 5 Join Date: Feb 2008 Way of Life: Undisclosed	Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - 06-24-2008 It seems you've entered into foreign territory so you've decided the best course of action is ridicule and misrepresentation to cover the fact you don't know what you're talking about. Also you never addressed the point.

	(#25 (permalink))
------ Account Disabled Status: Offline Posts: 1 Reputation: 0 Rep Power: 0 Join Date: Mar 2006 Way of Life: Undisclosed	Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - 06-24-2008 Well u know what it is right? With you, there is always some thing or another that just leads to ridiculing, because ur so daymn make it out as ur so innocent! Which ur not! Ur here to ridicule OUR beliefs - you carry on doing that, coz wallaahi (I swear by Allaah) that on the Day of Judgement I will be SO glad seeing you dragged upon ur face into the hell fire!! Getting back on topic; This (Alleged Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad?) post answers your question by the way. And do you seriously think that wine in Heaven will be like wine on earth?! NO! It won't! The only reason why God has described things in Paradise to us in these words is because we are familiar with them! But in Jannah will be something that no eye has ever seen or no ear has ever heard! Good luck!

	(#26 (permalink))
NYCmuslim Seeking Truth Status: Offline Posts: 154 Reputation: 1016 Rep Power: 9 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: New York City, USA Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - 06-24-2008 We should keep in mind not to take the descriptions of heaven too literally. The akhira is out of the reaches of our earthly perception and senses. The descriptions given in the Quran of heaven (and hell) are there to connect to our current senses and give us an idea of how blissful or tormenting the afterlife is. Peace __________________ *Allah never changes a Blessing that He has bestowed upon a nation until they first change themselves. And, certainly, God it is Who is Hearer, Knower.* -The Holy Quran 8:53 ---------------------------------------------- Serve Allah by serving humanity.

	(#28 (permalink))
------ Account Disabled Status: Offline Posts: 1 Reputation: 0 Rep Power: 0 Join Date: Mar 2006 Way of Life: Undisclosed	Re: Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad? - 06-24-2008 Because it's something made for paradise for believers pleasure NOT for this earth and for disbelievers pleasure. How do u expect God to reward people that dont even believe in Him?!