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snakelegs
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Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

eesa,
good post.
challenge is to find a balance between respecting and consulting scholars and following blindly.
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Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

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Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
eesa,
good post.
challenge is to find a balance between respecting and consulting scholars and following blindly.
Yeah, Eesa, I'm not criticizing you for telling me what you are. I'm just trying to figure out that if what you say is true, how it is that this man could have the position that he does? And if he has the position that he does and behaves so openly as he does, how another point of view as to how he should behave could be so strongly held within what I thought was a fairly cohesive Ummah?

What you are saying, and the verses that others have shown me are so clear that there seems to be no doubt. Yet what he is doing is also just as obvious. If he was just an ordinary Turk with no influence I would just ignore it as a personal decision not reflective of Islam. But this is Turkey's chief cleric. And I only know 1 Turkish man who has any sort of beard, and that a very short and trimmed one. Is Turkey a whole nation of apostate Muslims? Perhaps this is why there is a whole thread devoted to criticizing Mustafa Kemal Ataturk?

I don't know. I am still trying to figure this out.
   
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Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

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Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
But, as you said, you have scholars who study this. And you have an Ummah where the community is supposed to think in one accord. This man, is the chief cleric of a country of millions of Muslims. Assuming he is both studied and pious, and I have no reason to think otherwise, give his position. Surely, he would know and keep these things if they were as true as everyone says they are here.

To me it seems that according to what you are saying, this leader of the nation of Turkey's Muslims citizenry, is doing the equivalent of eating ham for a noon meal in the middle of Ramadan. That just doesn't make sense.
Yes, at the same time you have different callibre of scholars. I don't know if you lived in the Uk, but there was a scholar and chairman of the Council of Mosques, who stated that, in my words rough interpretations, removal of the viel (hijab) is justified. Now I have yet to see any other scholars agree with this and many have spoken out agains this statement. Yet he is someone who is well known and holds high position.

With regards to the Turkish Brother, I have to admit to be honest when I saw him shaking hands with the pope, I thought that was the Orthodox Minister guy, I didn't think it was a Muslim guy. I don't know his position on the beard and I dont have any of his statements and so forth. So I don't really want to comment on him or his position in particular.


I'l try to read more on the brother and get back to you.


This is the brother right?



The pope is the one on the left for those who don't know.
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Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

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Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
eesa,
good post.
challenge is to find a balance between respecting and consulting scholars and following blindly.
I could not agree more, I don't know if your familier with the Madhabs in Islam, there are 4 famous ones, and some people just follow what the rulings are in one madhab no matter what!! Ubelieveable.
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Follow (the Sunnah) and do not innovate (into it), for verily you have been sufficed.
And every innovation is a misguidance.



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Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

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Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
Eesa, It makes a great deal of sense. Certainly we have similar issues in Christianity. There are those who read everything literally and as divine command for all people at all times, those who read everything figuratively and as if only intended for the one specific audience who first read the letter or received the prophecy, and then all sorts of people inbetween trying to figure out which verses are meant to be applied universally to all situations and which verses are meant to be applied to particularl situations.

But, as you said, you have scholars who study this. And you have an Ummah where the community is supposed to think in one accord. This man, is the chief cleric of a country of millions of Muslims. Assuming he is both studied and pious, and I have no reason to think otherwise, give his position. Surely, he would know and keep these things if they were as true as everyone says they are here.

To me it seems that according to what you are saying, this leader of the nation of Turkey's Muslims citizenry, is doing the equivalent of eating ham for a noon meal in the middle of Ramadan. That just doesn't make sense.
Do you recall the story of Samson and Delilah Grace Seeker?
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Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

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Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
Yeah, Eesa, I'm not criticizing you for telling me what you are. I'm just trying to figure out that if what you say is true, how it is that this man could have the position that he does? And if he has the position that he does and behaves so openly as he does, how another point of view as to how he should behave could be so strongly held within what I thought was a fairly cohesive Ummah?

What you are saying, and the verses that others have shown me are so clear that there seems to be no doubt. Yet what he is doing is also just as obvious. If he was just an ordinary Turk with no influence I would just ignore it as a personal decision not reflective of Islam. But this is Turkey's chief cleric. And I only know 1 Turkish man who has any sort of beard, and that a very short and trimmed one. Is Turkey a whole nation of apostate Muslims? Perhaps this is why there is a whole thread devoted to criticizing Mustafa Kemal Ataturk?

I don't know. I am still trying to figure this out.
The the second paragraph, No, although I do know alot of turkish people who eat pork during ramadan lol, not all of turkey is apostate.

I've digged up some other fatwa's which should show you a more 'linient' verdict, from Islamonline.net

Question: As-Salam `Alaykum Brothers, kindly tell me the fatwa on keeping beard. People tell me it is Haram, and others tell me it is a Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings upon him) and the keeper of the beard will get a reward for keeping it. Is it required to have a lengthy beard or can one take something from its width and length? Please help. Jazakum Allah khayran.

Answer: Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

First of all, we would like to stress the fact that Islam calls upon all Muslims to be handsome and beautiful. It goes without saying that a Muslim should always be pure in clothes and body. This purity and cleanliness extends to one’s morals and manners. In their words and deeds, Muslims are to be pure and clean avoiding any form of vulgarity or foul speech. Commanding the purity and the cleanliness of the appearance, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, says: “Verily, Allah is Beautiful and loves beauty.”

Growing beard is a great Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). On growing a beard, it’s important for the Muslim to maintain his physical appearance. Beard should not be let grow in a way that makes a person look disgusting to people. In other words, the Muslim should make sure that his beard adds to his good looking and smartness.

Shedding more details on this issue, we’d like to cite for you the following Fatwa issued by the eminent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi:

“Ibn `Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, quoted the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: “Be distinguished from disbelievers, grow your beards, and shave your mustaches.” In the Hadith, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) related the reason for growing a beard to the necessity of distinguishing Muslims from non-Muslims. The non-Muslims referred to here are the Persians –fire worshipers - who used to shave their beards. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) wanted to teach Muslims how to be distinguished in their appearance, and their behavior.

Besides, shaving beard is an act of revolting against the nature of man, and imitating women. Thus, beard is a sign of maturity and manhood. However, growing a beard does not mean letting it stretch to an unreasonable width or length; rather, it adds to one’s handsomeness when it’s trimmed a bit or shaped from edges. This was the practice of the Salaf (righteous ancestors).

Most of our contemporary Muslims shave their beards, but this represents an act of imitating the enemies of their religion as well as ignoring the guidance of their Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) who said: “Whoever imitates a people, he is one of them.”

Many scholars made it prohibited Haram to shave beard, and they based it on the Prophet’s reasoning. To them, it is mandatory to grow the beard. It was not narrated ever about the righteous companions, and the Salaf (Successors) ignored this matter.

However, some contemporary scholars made it lawful to shave the beard under the pressure of current conditions. They further stated that growing a beard by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was a normal action but not a ritual one.

In reality, the Prophet’s insistence on growing a beard is not a matter of tradition but his deliberate insistence on the signs of distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims. Ibn Taimiyah stated that being different from non-believers was what the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) meant as imitating them would lead to companionship, loyalty, and internal love which, on its turn, would lead to external love, and this has been proven right nowadays.

Imam Ibn Taimiyah proceeded to say that, in many places in the Qur’an and the Sunnah, the importance of being distinctive from non-believers is reiterated given the fact that imitating them would also lead to behavioral imitation, a matter that is prohibited Islamically.

Based on the above mentioned, we see that there are three views on shaving the beard. First, shaving beard is prohibited. This is the view of Ibn Taimyiah. Second: it is Makruh (reprehensible), that is `Iyad’s view. The Third view is that there is no problem in shaving the beard. This view is held by many contemporary scholars.

It seems to me that the closest of these three views is the one that deems shaving beard as Makruh. As the stated reason for growing the beard is to be different from the non-believers, it is similar to the matter of dyeing gray hair in order to be distinct from the Jews and Christians; it is known that some of the Companions of the Prophet did not dye their gray hair, signifying that it was commendable rather than obligatory. Similarly, growing the beard may be regarded as commendable but not obligatory, and, accordingly, shaving it would be classified as Makruh rather than Haram. It is true that none of the Companions was known to have shaved his beard. Perhaps there was no need to shave, and perhaps growing the beard was a custom among them."


That can be found here

Also,


Question: Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. What is Islam’s view on growing a beard? Jazakum Allah khayran.


Answer: Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, we commend your keenness on getting your self well-acquainted with Islam and its teachings, which is the way Allah has chosen for the welfare of His servants.

As for your question, we’d like to state that growing beard is a great Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). However, Muslims differed regarding its ruling some of them state that it is mandatory and shaving it is forbidden while others view that it is an optional Sunnah and hence there is no harm in shaving it. What to be stressed here is that beard in Islam does not have the same religious significance as that of the other prescribed rituals. Thus it is important for us to recognize that we are not allowed to ostracize men who do not have beards nor are we to question their basic faith.

Elaborating on this we’d like to cite for you the following Fatwa on the ruling of growing beard issued by Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, who states:

"Growing a beard is considered a great Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). It is also one of the great legacies inherited from all of the previous prophets and messengers of Allah. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) ordered us: “Grow your beards and trim or clip the moustaches.” In light of such precedents, most of the past scholars and Imams go as far as declaring that growing a beard is obligatory on males.

What we stated above makes it clear that no Muslim should take the issue of the beard lightly. At the same time, we must also state categorically that one should not conclude from what has been said earlier that growing a beard in Islam has the same religious significance as that of the other prescribed rituals. This is definitely not the case. Thus it is important for us to recognize that we are not allowed to ostracize men who do not have beards nor are we to question their basic faith.

Since beard is undoubtedly a great Sunnah, every Muslim male should try to practice this Sunnah according to the best of his ability. Allah does not take us to task for what is beyond our power or ability. We are told to fear Allah as best as we can."

Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.muslims.ca


And this can be found here


I hope that kinda helps you to see that some people say it's sunnah, I don;t know why they say that, since it's a commandment, it would be nice to know what their view for saying 'its sunnah' is, there are parts of the fatwas which I don't know where they derive things from. Pretty upsetting.

Eesa
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إتبعوا ولا تبتدعوا، فقدكفيتم، وكل بدعة ضلالة
Follow (the Sunnah) and do not innovate (into it), for verily you have been sufficed.
And every innovation is a misguidance.



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Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

Eesa

Thank-you for your hard work and research. I see now that I was wrong in thinking that there was uniformity in everything within the Ummah. You have your differences in interpretations just like us Christians do. That doesn't bother me, I can respect that when people are sincerely looking for the truth, not simply to justify their personal opinions. It appears that the issue of the beard might be one of these things. Given all the different looks you will see among Christians, this is really a minor thing.

As regard this part of what your found out:
Quote:
In reality, the Prophet’s insistence on growing a beard is not a matter of tradition but his deliberate insistence on the signs of distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims. Ibn Taimiyah stated that being different from non-believers was what the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) meant as imitating them would lead to companionship, loyalty, and internal love which, on its turn, would lead to external love, and this has been proven right nowadays.
It might interest you to know that there is a joke among Christian pastors that all youth ministers must have a beard and play the guitar. It's not true that they do, of course (I never learned to play the guitar), but it is amazing how often you will find that to be the case. So, look out, in growing beards, you may still end up looking like us non-believers, and worse, not just the laity, but like the clergy. hahahaha


btw, I didn't really think that Turkey was an apostate country. I know enough Turks to know better. That part was a bit of an exaggeration.
   
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Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

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Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah View Post
Yes, at the same time you have different callibre of scholars. I don't know if you lived in the Uk, but there was a scholar and chairman of the Council of Mosques, who stated that, in my words rough interpretations, removal of the viel (hijab) is justified. Now I have yet to see any other scholars agree with this and many have spoken out agains this statement. Yet he is someone who is well known and holds high position.

With regards to the Turkish Brother, I have to admit to be honest when I saw him shaking hands with the pope, I thought that was the Orthodox Minister guy, I didn't think it was a Muslim guy. I don't know his position on the beard and I dont have any of his statements and so forth. So I don't really want to comment on him or his position in particular.


I'l try to read more on the brother and get back to you.


This is the brother right?



The pope is the one on the left for those who don't know.

Dear brother,
He is the Head of Religious Fairs in Turkey. Yes, people in Turkey are 99% are muslims but we don't have an Islamic State. That brothet can't speak or behave as a muslim represantative freely. He is an officer of our non-Islamic state. Do you understand me? Try to understand Turkish people. He is a sincere muslim scholar. He was an academician on Islam at a university in Turkey. He's really a sincere muslim.
   
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Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

Merhaba Schoolmaster, are you from Turkey?

Selam.
   
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Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

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Originally Posted by schoolmaster54 View Post
Dear brother,
He is the Head of Religious Fairs in Turkey. Yes, people in Turkey are 99% are muslims but we don't have an Islamic State. That brothet can't speak or behave as a muslim represantative freely. He is an officer of our non-Islamic state. Do you understand me? Try to understand Turkish people. He is a sincere muslim scholar. He was an academician on Islam at a university in Turkey. He's really a sincere muslim.
Assalamu Aleykum Akhi,

First I want you to know I love you for the sake of Allah, and I am very happy that you have been patient with me. May Allah reward you with Jannah!!

I don't know what is happening in Turkey, I have had turkish friends who claimed to be muslims but I don't know, but I still love them, this brother, I love him for the sake of Allah and I'd do anything for him Insha'Allah. That was why I said I wouldnt say anything since I don't know him.

Just wondering, can you tell me his name so I can read about him, and his views of Islam?

Eesa.
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إتبعوا ولا تبتدعوا، فقدكفيتم، وكل بدعة ضلالة
Follow (the Sunnah) and do not innovate (into it), for verily you have been sufficed.
And every innovation is a misguidance.



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Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

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Dear Grace Seeker,

The fact of the matter is that some Muslims take it upon themselves to say that growing the beard is not a command, as you have seen we have Muslims who even don't accept Ahadeeth, sayings of our Prophet, peace be upon him, why? Because they tend to, and this is a rule of thumb, find something they disagree with and reject it, similarly with the beard, alot of Muslims seem to read one or two Ahadeeth and say "Ah, its not mandatory!"

For example, over at a Muslim website a brother has posted this and made his 'personal' views very clear.

Prophet Muhammad ordered Muslims to grow beards. But why?

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him ordered Muslims to grow beards, because he didn't want them to look like the Pagans. It was important back then for Muslims to look different than the Pagans for both security and cultural reasons. By making it easier for Muslims to distinguish each others easily, it would certainly enforce safety and security among them. Also, by making Muslims be different than everyone else, it would certainly help them to give up their old Pagan traditions that they were raised with, especially when they're different than everyone else.
And the thing goes on and on, but I do have to say taht this brother, I do believe is neither an thorough student of knowlege nor a scholar. So this is what happens, people take a couple of hadeeth and then make up their own mind.

Am sure you are aware that in Islam we tend to look upto scholars, not blind follow them, but since they spend their life on studying our religion, it is likely that they will have a wider picture, and unlikely that they would produce a ruling based on a small part of the picture by mistakes as me or you would do from only having seen a couple of statements.

The fact that the Prophet, peace be upon him, orders us, if I am not mistaken makes it compulsry, unless someone can provide a solid reason for it not being compulsry, this is touched upon by Student of Knowledge Yasir Qadhi, in Sciences of Fiqh, I think it is.

Personally if someone told me this, then I would just tell them that the Qu'ran says, if I am not mistaken, "Fast that you may attain taqwa" so would that mean that someone can say 'I don't have to fast today, I've got enough taqwa' or the Qu'ran says, again if I'm not mistaken, "Salah prevents wrong doing" or something like that, so is it again ok for someone to say 'Don't pray salah its only there to prevent you from wrong doing, if you don't do any other wrong then you can avoid praying it'

(someone tell me if I got the quotes wrong, cos Im quoting partially from memory)

I hope this kinda makes sense.

Eesa.
It also had to do with differentiating from women, the last Prophet himself said that shaving it all was for effeminate men
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ankara
Gender:Brother In Islam
Way of Life: Muslim
Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

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Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
Merhaba Schoolmaster, are you from Turkey?

Selam.

Yes, I am. I live in Ankara. What about you, bro?
   
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schoolmaster54
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schoolmaster54 has a spectacular aura aboutschoolmaster54 has a spectacular aura about
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Default Re: To shave the beard is haraam.... - 11-30-2006

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Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah View Post
Assalamu Aleykum Akhi,

First I want you to know I love you for the sake of Allah, and I am very happy that you have been patient with me. May Allah reward you with Jannah!!

I don't know what is happening in Turkey, I have had turkish friends who claimed to be muslims but I don't know, but I still love them, this brother, I love him for the sake of Allah and I'd do anything for him Insha'Allah. That was why I said I wouldnt say anything since I don't know him.

Just wondering, can you tell me his name so I can read about him, and his views of Islam?

Eesa.
NATIONAL12.01.2006 Friday - ISTANBUL 00:35
Papal Visit won't Heal Wounds
By Reuters, Cihan News Agency, Rome
Thursday, November 16, 2006
zaman.com


An upcoming visit to Turkey by Pope XVI Benedict will not stop Muslims from feeling wounded by his remarks on Islam, said Ali Bardakoglu, the top religious authority in Turkey, in an interview with Italian daily La Stampa.
Bardakoglu will meet with the pope during his visit to Turkey from Nov. 28 to Dec. 1.

Bardakoglu rebutted rumors of possible flaws in security for the Pope, but admitted the psychological effect of recent protests.


“This visit will not solve all problems but it will be a good step toward further dialogue,” said Bardakoglu. “Peace is possible to destroy in a second but it takes years and years to reestablish.”

Muslim reaction against the pope’s remarks on Sept. 12 forced him to apologize, but he never put his regret in exact terms.


Although Bardakoglu expressed his approval of the pope’s regret, he reiterated that the remarks were “unacceptable.”


“It makes no difference whether deplorable remarks about Islam came from someone who is not a cleric, or from someone religious, of from someone important. What matters is to make up for such remarks…. But all this is in the past now. We’re looking ahead,” said Bardakoglu.


Afterwards the pope tried to improve his image by saying that he meant his words to be an explanation for a link between religion and reason, not between religion and violence.

Bardakoglu responded to the papal statements saying that they could lead to academic misinterpretation of the situation: “Islam does not disregard reason. There is evidence in the Quran that God takes into account the role of reason.”