Responding in my limited way to the questions I bold-faced:

Yes, I think we all know how to hit just hard enough to get attention while being soft enough to not leave a mark. Don't we do this all the time with little babies who are trying to do something dangerous, light reach for the hot stove-top?

In a marriage, both partners would be defining all kinds of behavior. Why is that germaine to the discussion?

If you do it out of anger, it will more than likely be hard enough to leave a mark. Since he must wait till his anger has cooled down, he is not likely to beat the hell out of me with a toothbrush. So it becomes a non-issue. No anger = no hitting with the toothbrush/pen/feather/whatever.

Peace out.

Salaam/peace to all;

hope everybody is in good mind & health ....noboby beat wife ....yakkkk or nobody ( not only sister , brother too ) was beaten



chris:

I do not even want to get into Muslim Woman's comments that some women deserve a good smacking).

---- ooopssss sorry sis if i upset u . Let me explain.

I saw so many programmes on media about how Muslim women are oppressed. I don't remember any single programme that says how Muslim women can be oppressors.



In a Muslim majority country , joint family is very common (I guess , it's rare in the west ). Normally son after getting married live with parent . Now a days, it's almost becoming impossible for any son to live with parents.


I know a widow mom who came to live with her married daughter as a paying guest ' cause her son left home with wife & it was not possible for that elderly lady to stay alone.

Yes , as a married woman , i do understand living with in-laws can create many problems ; but when mother is a widow & her all daughters are married & now she has only son to live with......it was a cruel act for them to leave home & left mom alone ( i m not sure if u can understand this situation as aged parent live alone in the west but fortunately in Asia we don't send our parents to old home ...they stay with family members ) .



in the case mentioned above , it was almost compulsory for a son & his wife to stay with the old mom & do as much as possible for her. It's for their own sakes....to please God Almighty & get rewards from Him on the Last Day. Instead they forced her to move to her daughter's home that is very unusual in a Muslim society.


I think, it's better to be a victim rather than an oppressor .



When i saw that old lady crying , i feared for the son......mom's each tear drops will certainly be heavy on him .


I went to a kid's birthday party where kid's mom scolded her husband in front of all guests....know why ? Because he forgot to buy the new film & she just got mad & complaining that how a bad father he is.....now how can she take photographs of her only son in his new dress ?

Many of us who had cameras assured her that we will take as much as photo she wants of the event , still it took almost one hour to make her calm. Just imagine , if a wife can scold husband so rudely in front of so many guests , then how she behaves with him when nobody in around ?



No , of course i don't think that husband should beat her mercilessly , but I regularly wonder that how he is he tolerating her ? Most probably , because of their only son , they are still married.



Another woman who wanted to divorce her husband but her sister-in-law did not support her returning back to parent's home ' cause it means her husband needs to look up the sister with her kid.



Those women who forced their husbands to give all money to them & not to spend money for his parent & bro , sis .. ...BBC, CNN , FoxNews don't represent these oppressor Muslim wives & their victim husbands.


Some women regularly blackmail ( not sure if this is the correct word ) husbands .... know how ? very easy ....she goes to her parent house & deprive her husband from conjugal life. In many cases , men find it hard to stay without wife for long & bring her back home & listen to her obediently that is harmful for their lives hereafter .



Pl. try to understand , Islam does not allow violence . Even in the battle field , if enemy wants to hear the words of God , Muslims must escort them .....so it's impossible that God allows husbands to beat wife mercilessly .




If some or many husbands do this crime , they are to blame for it ...pl. don't put blame on Islam.



I guess , u have already have a headache. So, bye for now.

******

Holy Quran:

Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity.

Muslim Woman...I apologize if my comments seemed rude. It is just that in my country we are very careful to make sure a woman is never blamed for any abuse she experiences. Ideas like "she deserved it" or "why doesn't she just leave" only cause harm these women. However, I suppose that you were not discussing "abuse" but rather the implimentation of a specific Islamic ruling.

I really enjoyed your point about Muslim women being oppressors. In the Muslim country I am familiar with, many women demand excessively high dowries which prohibits lots of Muslim men from getting married, which is really sad I think. In the situations you gave it is sad, but if these men are being treated so badly, they always have the option of getting a divorce.

This might open up a whole other can of worms but in the verse regarding the "hitting" is the "if you fear disobedience" refering to Allah or the husband, or both? Becaue I have heard it argued both ways.

To be honest, this "issue" really doesn't bother me as much as some of the other ones (polygamy grrrrr). I still think its wrong to hit a women in any way for any reason. But since that is not the case in Islam, I can trust in some all knowing creator who understands the benefits of hitting women with toothbrushes far better than myself, and for this reason has permitted this very specific form of hitting.

Here's what I wrote earlier in this thread:

Coming to your specific question, you've mentioned another example of a verse anti-islamists try to take in isolation to malign in Islam. We see from the other Qur'anic verses and the Prophet's example that kind, compassionate and gentle treatment has been ordained. This verse speaks specifically of the case when there is deliberately nasty behaviour on the part of the wife which poses a threat to the marriage (the Prophet Muhammad pbuh defined the behaviour in question to be manifest indecency). And in such a case one is to use admonition and discussion as the primary method of seeking resolution, and after that seperation. The last method described here after the other methods is the use of light physical force, but never to the point of abuse or injury, nor when angry. The issue here is not punishing the wife at all, but rather to evoke recognition of the gravity of the situation. If Muslims followed the Qur'anic method of dispute resolution, they would never arrive at such a stage. And the wife has the opportunity to seek divorce at any stage in the matter. She should never stay in an abusive relationship and no one is allowed to force her to do so. The verse gives absolutely no license for wife abuse or domestic violence.

Actually the same 'slippery-slope' argument can be applied to anything in this regard, irrespective of where you choose to draw the line. When does a spouse's playful shove become an aggressive push? When does an annoyed slap become an inappropriate smack? When does an exasperated grab become a threatening clutch? When does an unwanted pinch become a abusive squeeze?

What you must realize is that there is inherent subjectivity when it comes to physical contact and interactions amongst human beings. And most people have reasonable judgement; we're not robots or computers who need an 800 page programming of the exact parameters of appropriate contact, which will never be free of grey areas anyway. In your day to day interactions you need to be a judge on what kind of conduct is allowed. If someone acts excessively it is usually quite obvious, especially if the case winds up in court for domestic violence.

As Muslims we have the lofty standard of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh to apply in all aspects of our lives and this is how his own wife described him:
`Âishah said: “Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) never once struck a servant of his nor a woman, nor did he strike anyone with his hand.” [Sahîh Muslim (2328), Sunan Abî Dâwûd (4786), Sunan Ibn Mâjah (1984), as quoted from Sunan Ibn Mâjah]

So even if you say 'no hitting period', the 'period' is only in your imagination since the grey areas continue forever and physical contact will still occur between couples; and when it is deemed excessive by one party it will be brought before the courts and the decision will be clear as will the punishment.
The prophet peace be upon described it as manifest indecency - certainly not average behavior and hence a preclusion of spousal abuse.
Ibn Abbas's statement on the miswak is to emphasize the mildness of it and to remind the believers of the lofty standard of the Prophet pbuh which is to avoid any hitting.
The Qur'anic verses go on to speak about the possibility of rebellious behavior on the part of the husband and point out mediation by a third party. The reason why the same steps are not profferred here is because a woman is usually not able to physically overpower her husband and such actions on her part against someone who is physically rebellious may only endanger her further and the Qur'an intends to protect women from harm and it intends to honor them.
What is intended is that the hitting is not done out of anger since then self-control and caution is reduced and the possibility of harm is greater. But it does not mean the husband will be emotionally neutral, it just means he doesn't lose his temper and let his anger control his actions. Also, the fact that hitting in anger is prohibited significantly reduces the liklihood of hitting at all, and consequently if one was to actually follow the steps laid out in the Qur'an they wouldn't come to this problem in the first place.

Regards

What if your life was in danger? Self-defence? Not even then?

If you are pacifist then yes. But that also mean syou can't hit anyone, including your kids.

Do you agree with smacking children?

Ansar -

I know its a slippery slope and it's never going to be fully clear. My belief is that its easier to say "Do not hit them" and then go onto debate what constitues a "hit" rather than say "Hit them in x circumstance in x manner." I think the former shows more respect to women. But that is just my opinion.

I also find it a little bit insulting that physical force might be necessary to evoke recognition of the severity of the event. If she doesn't understand the severity after explanation, and after her husband avoids relations with her, obviously there is some ideological difference between the partners that will not be solved with a hit from a toothbrush? I think implicit in this argument is that sometimes the only way to make women understand the severity of a situation is to "tap" them. You are basicaly saying that some women are incapable of evaluating their behavior based on explanations and expressions of anger, rather they need something physical to help them understand. If these women really can only grasp the severity of the situation when it is expressed to them in the form of a toothbrush tap, they probably should not be in an Islamic marriage in the first place.

This is just an honest question because on the Aisha boards you say that not everything that Prophet does becomes Sunnah (I'm paraphrasing). So how do you know that "Not hitting women" is something that should be encouraged for Muslims and marrying 9 year olds is not?

No actually I don't agree with smaking children. Yes I would grab their arms is they were about to run out into traffic or touch a hot iron. But if they were misbehaving I would use other means (such as time out). I think that smacking them for misbehavior teaches them the idea that "Hitting is an acceptable way of evoking behavioral changes." So now when they are in school and someone steals their crayons they think "Well, how did my mom get me to change my behaviors? Oh yeah, smacking, okay so let me do that."

salamz,
beat them lightly with a siwak (used for brushing teeth)..and that should be the last resort yeh?? And it should be done on the hand or so.

Im just speaking from the top of my head now. I tell ya something, i wish my dad was a muslim all those years ago when he (the westerner, non muslim) beat the living daylights outta my mum.

Islam is simply perfect....may Allah guide my family..ameen.

That's good, just wanted to see if there was a contradiction in you saying not hitting a woman ever, with your opinion smacking a kid.

Thing is your nation is not pacifist, look at the armed police, look at the invasion of other countries. Do you agree with no use of violence at all?

Salaam/peace to u & all;

[quote]
it's ok :okay:


i gave one example from Jamal Badawi's article. What do u suggest for that young man who's wife is bad ridden & can't perform her role as a wife?

Should he divorce her , cheat her or re-marry & keep her in marriage and take care of her ?


http://www.islamfortoday.com/polygamy5.htm


pl. remember , God says in Quran about polygamy that if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then (marry) only one…" (Qur’an 4:3)



U may also ask urself , If Islam is really that bad & anti-women , why then so many western women are embracing Islam ?


Spanish Muslim Revert Talks about Women's Rights in Islam

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2351



Bismillah, Assalamu alaykum, this is a Spanish Muslim sister, she talks about Women's rights in Islam. This sister's name is Fatimah Milla - Rumayor.

She is educated and bought up in Spain, she works as a linguist and is from Spain.

She points out some useful information about Islam and she addresses the misconceptions that many people have about Islam and the role of women in it.



The Status of Women In Islam.
Compiled By TurnToIslam.Com

Islam is the message that Allah sent to all mankind through his Prophets. The Message of Islam has always been to worship Allah alone without associating any partners with him and to follow the Messengers that he, the most High, sent to mankind.



The Last and final Messenger was Muhammad (pbuh) And it is his example and guidance that Muslims must seek to emulate and act upon.

Islam is perfect, and there is no need for it to ever be changed or "Modernised". For It is a religion of ease and moderation.


Infact, those Muslims who do not act according to the true sources of Islam are the ones who are "backwards". Advancement for mankind is through the pure Islam.

THere will be some "Muslims" who do not respect women, or who are criminals and do bad.




Just as there will be some countries which call themselves "Islamic" and call for women to be stopped from going to school and getting education etc.


None of these people are following Islam properly. They are ignorant to the true teachings of Islam. Any person who has a fair and just mind, can understand that there are good and bad people in all societies. Islam is not at fault, but those people who do not follow it properly.

You can not simply generalise and make wide sweeping statements against Muslims or Islam based upon the actions of a very few people.

comment of a reader:

A woman came out of a mans rib. Not from his feet to be walked on, not from his head to be superior over, but from his side to be equal.

Under the arm to be protected, and next to the heart to be loved

Hi Chris,
As I pointed out, you still have not escaped the inherent subjectivity here and there will still be spousal interactions of irritation and annoyance, so you're back to square one. And such a prohibition also neglects the issue of emotional and psychological abuse and other forms of harassment.
But that isn't what the Qur'an does. The Qur'an says in these situations that threaten the marriage, only then is the mildest physical contact permitted under stringent circumstances that most people will not come to anyway. It has nothing to do with disrespecting the man or the woman, it has to do with providing a practical series of steps for the husband to resolve nasty behavior on the part of the wife. And the Qur'an provides the wife with the steps to resolve such behavior on the part of the husband as well.

What you don't realize is that even if you say "no hitting", people will still resort to such actions as a rare slap or pinch, and after the dispute is resolved, neither party will deem it abuse. Here are characteristics of spousal abuse that women should look out for:

It may not be easy to identify abuse. An abusive relationship can start subtly. The abuser may criticize your appearance or may be unreasonably jealous. Gradually, the abuse becomes more frequent, severe and potentially life-threatening.
"It's important to know that these relationships don't happen overnight," says Patterson. "It's a gradual process — a slow disintegration of a person's sense of self."
However, many characteristics signify an abusive relationship. For example, you may be abused if you:

• Have ever been hit, kicked, shoved or threatened with violence
• Feel that you have no choice about how you spend your time, where you go or what you wear
• Have been accused by your partner of things you've never done
• Must ask your partner for permission to make everyday decisions
• Feel bad about yourself because your partner calls you names, insults you or puts you down
• Limit time with your family and friends because of your partner's demands
• Submit to sexual intercourse or engage in sexual acts against your will
• Accept your partner's decisions because you're afraid of ensuing anger
• Are accused of being unfaithful
• Change your behavior in an effort to not anger your partner

Pregnancy is a particularly perilous time for an abused woman. Not only is your health at risk, but also the health of your unborn child. Abuse can begin or may increase during pregnancy.

Most abuse occurs under the influence of alcohol, something that Islam prohibits.
It is not insulting because the same thing can also apply to the husband! The only reason why the wife is not given the step of hitting the husband is because it will only endanger her further, and we see proof of this in that all domestic violence support centers encourage the wife to just leave an abusive household.
Not true, it could be emotional obstinance and neglecting the harm being caused to the other party. She may not realize the reality of her emotional and psychological abuse, and the same thing can apply to the man. So it is not insulting to either men or women, since it can apply to both, it is only insulting to those who wish to purse such abusive behavior towards their spouse.
It was never a 'practice' of the Prophet to marry 9 year old girls. Almost all his marriages were to middle-aged widows, and with his companions he only ever endorsed marriage to people who were pious and had good character. So by no stretch of the imagination can one say that that is a practice of the Prophet, let alone that all believers are to emulate it.

As for the hadith I presented about the Prophet pbuh never hitting anyone, this is a standard he maintained throughout his entire life and it was part of his personal interactions with other people and his etiquettes of dealing with other people which he told us to follow and which the Qur'an commands us to follow. Cultural practices like riding a camel, we are not commanded to follow. But his excellent character, manners and etiquettes we strive to follow.

Regards

hitting your kids, and hitting your wife are two totally opposite things. your wife isnt a kid, or has the brains of a kid, or is inferior. therefore i believe that there shouldnt be no intention from a man to hit his wife, being a toothbrush, to what ever

Which is why I said earlier:

Coming to your specific question, you've mentioned another example of a verse anti-islamists try to take in isolation to malign in Islam. We see from the other Qur'anic verses and the Prophet's example that kind, compassionate and gentle treatment has been ordained. This verse speaks specifically of the case when there is deliberately nasty behaviour on the part of the wife which poses a threat to the marriage (the Prophet Muhammad pbuh defined the behaviour in question to be manifest indecency). And in such a case one is to use admonition and discussion as the primary method of seeking resolution, and after that seperation. The last method described here after the other methods is the use of light physical force, but never to the point of abuse or injury, nor when angry. The issue here is not punishing the wife at all, but rather to evoke recognition of the gravity of the situation. If Muslims followed the Qur'anic method of dispute resolution, they would never arrive at such a stage. And the wife has the opportunity to seek divorce at any stage in the matter. She should never stay in an abusive relationship and no one is allowed to force her to do so. The verse gives absolutely no license for wife abuse or domestic violence.

Of course with some individuals such actions will never be effective and will only worsen the situation, so they should be avoided then. But to state that such methods are categorically unproductive in all circumstances and societies is fallacious.

Here's a good Islamic article on the general relationship between men and their wives: