Hi Ansar,
I have read through the posts, and I am sorry if the info is there I must have missed it, but what would be defined as "light physical force"?

Also, as more of a comment then a question. It seems that the idea is that a person that believes that the other person in the marriage is not able to realize that they are being irrational, can use light force to "snap" them back into reality. The danger I see in this is, often people think they are the one that is being rational and 'right', but what if they are the one that is actually in need of being 'snapped' into reality (Ok, I guess it did end up being a question)? It may just end up being a case of a husband snapping his wife into his reality. Or open the door for an escalated dispute. Just seems that if used at all, should be reserved for only those that have the wisdom. Unfortunatly, many believe themselves to posess wisdom that they really do not.

Well if you are disgusted then that was the point of the example. I know that its an extreme example but the point was to try to help you see things from my point of view, which apparently failed miserably. Just because you think something is trivial and not an issue doesn't mean the whole world is going to see it like that. That is why I picked an example I knew you would be disgusted by. Its something that you know is not right no matter how many reasons are excuses people give. This is how I see permission of hitting your wife under whatever circumstances. Its just not right, I don't care if its lightly or if it doesn't leave a mark. This is not a figment of my imagination, its a permission given to men by God that I personally don't think is necessary.

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Hi Gary,
Thanks for your post.
Based on the Qur'an and Ahadith, the scholars have mentioned a few things. First, it should not be on the face or private parts. Second, it should in no way cause any harm or damage, such as that which results from violent strikes. It should never be the type of hit that leaves marks, like bruises or scratches etc. Thirdly, it should not be done in anger since then a person is likely to lose their self-control. A statement from Ibn Abbas shows how mild this is, when he said it is like using the miswâk.

And even any of this is only allowed in a situation of manifest indecency after all preceding methods have been tried.
Yes, this is quite a fair comment. If people do not make good decisions, they will suffer as a result, whether that entails the deterioration of their marital relationship and family, or suffering legal consequences if they really go overboard. The Qur'an has given this dispensation to use when it will prove productive but it has also given a vast body of teachings on marital advice to guide one in making the best decisions and understanding the true loving nature of marriage. The use of such a dispensation does presuppose some judicious reasoning on the part of the one utilizing such a dispensation; there really is no way to say that "only people with wisdom can use this" except to offer a mass of teachings on marriage to guide one in making appropriate decisions.

Regards

I explicitly stated that my disgust was more than just abhorring the issue of infanticide itself, but that I was disgusted at YOUR ridiculous comparison of this issue ot infanticide. Such an analogy is completely incoherent - especially, since you [seemingly] understood that we were discussing non-violent non-harmful behavior, as mild as a tap with a miswâk. And even all this only in a very specific scenario of manifest indecency. But all those detailed words of explanation seem to be completely lost on you when you throw out the window the fact that we are talking about a non-violent 'tap' as mild as a miswâk and that we are in no way even coming close to justifying domestic violence or any form of abuse. When I take the time to write these explanations and they go in one ear and out the other and the response is a ludicrous comparison to killing innocent children, can I be anything other than disgusted??

Even if you read your OWN posts from earlier in this thread, the problem was that you didn't see how this could be useful in such a scenario, NOT that you thought a mild tap was abusive. So why on earth would you compare it to something not only abusive but outright criminally heinous?!
You're right, because such a view is based on deliberate distortion and willful ommission of context and basic facts.
Speaking from the point of rationality, it is self-evident that the fundamentals in life are our purpose behind our existence, the message of salvation, our destiny and afterlife, etc. etc. and certainly not whether a dispensation in such a specific scenario pertaining to such a specific stringent set of conditions could prove productive.
It is not the example I'm talking about here, it is the fact that YOU made such a ludicrous comparison.
First of all, Islam prohibits any form of abuse, harm or domestic violence. Secondly, Islam also prohibits all such hitting and the Prophet pbuh showed us how it is not necessary. However, in the case of manifest indecency and after other methods of dialogue and seperation have been exhausted, only then is one able to use only the kind of light physical force that will prove productive and NOT cause any harm, but be as mild as the strike of a miswâk. There is NOTHING objectionable in this at all, and certainly no rational and objective grounds for one to reject Islam.

Note that this thread is specifically devoted to this topic. A classic tactic of anti-islamists is to try to raise as many spurious allegations as possible in one place so that their opponents do not have the opportunity to dissect and refute each one individually in detail. These kind of tactics don't fly here, so if you want to discuss other issues we can take them up in the countless other threads devoted to their discussion.

Regards

I was not trying to derail the thread, just hoping that you would understand there are some things I find disgusting about Islam even after I read the threads.

The point was not that the actions were similiar. The point was so that you could maybe understand what it feels like to try to accept a religion with things in it that you find unacceptable.

You say that there is nothing objectionable in this permission to tap your wife but I disagree. I think the world could do without men being permitted to "strike" women with miswaks. It is not in my opinion an effective way of "snapping someone out of it," if it were we would see psychiatrists and therapists "tapping" their patients all the time. If it were effective, why doesn't the wife bring her husband to a third party mediator who will tap him? Why don't marriage counselors recommend it?

On top of that it has the great potential to be misused - Giving an angry, sexually frustrated man permission to "lightly tap" his wife so that she will understand the situation just doesn't seem like the best idea to me. I know that anything he does beyond this is not within the bounds of Islam, but isn't it common sense that he might over react (just like its common sense that woman shouldn't hit a man because he might be violent right back).

Why don't we just leave it as I find it an objectional ruling and you do not. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it even if you consider it illogical or irrational or whatever. Islam contains rulings that I personally consider objectional, so that is something that I personally have to deal with.

We have already stated how many times that he is not allowed to be angry when he does it, and where on earth did this assumption of sexual frustration come from?

Chris, my mind honestly can not comprehend why you find this objectable. If it is because you think it can be abused, then this exists only in your mind and in the mind of those who deliberatly seek to twist the words of Alalh swt for their own twisted desires.

I see this ruling as a mercy from Allah swt on women where he forbids men to hit their wives in a way that men have been doing for only God knows how long. He only permits a light tap if is practical when other means have been exhausted.

About your argument that you were taught that men should never ever hit women no matter what... something tells me that hitting smeone lightly (i.e. in the Islamic way) doesnt even come under this kind of hitting.

Hi Cheese,
I am wondering if when you get married will you be ok with this? It is easy to say now, but what if your husband does this while you feel you are right in the dispute? And what happens if he does this and it doesn't "snap you into his reality"? What happens when you still see it your way?
Also, don't you think it will feel a bit humiliating? Won't it be embarassing, and feel like you have been disrespected (especially if you feel you are still in the right)?

I thought he wasn't allowed to hit out of anger, but I can't imagine that he wouldn't be angry with the situation if his wife is behaving so badly? I also thought he might be sexual frustrated since first he has to remove himself from his wife, but you are right this might not always be the case.

Again which is why I said its my opinion. I find it objectionable because there was always a choice to just forbid men from hitting women lightly, and I'm just cannot understand why the choice was made to permit it. That is basically it.

Would you ever hit your mother, even if it was really lightly with a miswak so that she might grasp the severity of the situation?

That "she might grasp the severity of the situation" part kind of makes me wonder. It assumes that the husband always knows best. There are more than a few men out there that are dim-wits and if not for the wisdom of their wives would be a mess.

Gary - you must have missed the whole idea that men are the leaders of the family and wives are obedient to their husbands. He should consult his wife but the decisions rest with him. So in the case of these dim wits let's hope they take their wife's advice.

Anyway as it was explained to me previously on this thread there are times when hitting a man might be useful to help him see the error of his ways but in this case she is not supposed to hit him (because of fear of retaliation) rather bring him to some kind of third party mediator.

Hi Gary,

If I were right, then I would not let it even get past stage two, I would do what the wife is adviced to do when she is in the right- get a third person to help me and settle the matter between us inshaallah.

Also, no I do not find it humiliating, at the moment I am more worried about having done something so bad that my husband feels he needs to do the steps!!! (And good on him if he does the steps rather than just acting on his own desires)

Er I have absolutely no right to hit my mother, that is for her husband to do! And God forbid I would be more upset that my mother had acted so badly that my dad would feel if necessary to take these steps and I wouldnt even think twice if he tapped her with a toothbrush!! My thoughts would be with her rebelling against Allah swt and I would be happy that my dad is doing what Allah swt told him to do in such a situation!

Thats the point Gary, the step are only to be done if the husband is right and the wife is wrong. If the wife feels she is right then their is nothing stopping her from seeking the help of a family member.

May god help us all- when it comes to dim wits, no women is safe, no matter what religion the man belongs to because he will always have the ability to overpower her (Also, Even non-mulsims assume the husband to have some level of authority over the wife, with christians it is a part of their religion, the same as Islam, and with others it is something assumed even if they dont admit it). That is why it is so important to pick our husbands carefully.

But if the proper way is only a tap with no pain involved, then why would she need to fear retaliation?
Could the mediator be her older/bigger brother?




This is where one of the potential problems arises. What if you don't feel that you have done anything "bad"? What if your husband decides many things you do are "bad", while you feel you are being good?
What about the husband that thinks he is right when he is not?

It's just my opinion, and obviously we will disagree, but I see the "steps" as something that is meant for an imaginary, magical, perfect world. It reminds me of the movie 'Pleasantville'. It is extremely unlikely that a man that cannot have a rational, reasonable discussion with his wife to settle a marital dispute, is going to be able to rationally, without anger, follow a set of steps, that leads to him being in a position that allows him to give her a tap. If he lacks the ability to reason with her, and is prone to 'tapping', he is likely going to be an angry man. That tap, will be more of a 'slap'.

Haha finally something we can agree on!