Hello,
Islamic law indeed places physical changes as the limit for marriage and once someone is past puberty they are considered a young man or a young woman. This concept is medically accurate in comparison to setting artificial limits. As far as marriage is cocnerned, then in previous times, even in the west, it was typical for marriage to occur early as children needed to take an active part in helping out around the house, farm, etc. It was not like today where people usually wait until after completeting their education.
As I repeatedly emphasized this is not about just 'sex' it is about marriage. Marriage is a life-long commitment that needs approval from both partners. See here for the conditions of marriage:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503546572

Customs or 'urf plays a role as well. Depending on the society, in some cases marriage is done earlier than in others. But the bottom line is that it is done after puberty with the consent of both parties.
What is disturbing about a girl being married after puberty by consent and being happy with her marriage as well? Just because today people get married later, why are historical customs 'disturbing'? Do you have any medical evidence to support your view?

And don't feel that you have to withdraw from the discussion at the risk of offending others. It is better to discuss these issues and research them properly, rather than let them fester within and create more misunderstandings. I have always been an advocate of evidence-based and respectful dialogue.

bin direnken,
That's not what I'm criticising you for. I am criticising you for building your claims on fallacious arguments such as red-herrings and strawmen and blatantly ignoring the evidence that has already been presented.

Let's deal with the claim of central precocious puberty first.
For someone who should be educated on this issue, you shall a remarkable lack of understanding. As per the Medline plus Medical Encyclopedia:

Precocious puberty is premature development of body characteristics that normally occur during puberty. (Puberty is the period in life when the body changes rapidly and develops reproductive capability). Puberty normally occurs between 13 and 15 years old in boys, and between 9 and 16 years old in girls.

In girls, precocious puberty is when any of the following develop before 8 years of age:

Breasts
Armpit or pubic hair
Mature external genitalia
First menstruation

(SOURCE, emphasis added)

The Nemours Foundation concurrs with the description as well:

Precocious puberty - the onset of signs of puberty before age 7 or 8 in girls and age 9 in boys - can be physically and emotionally difficult for children and can sometimes be the sign of an underlying health problem. (SOURCE)

So our Medical references confirm that it is normal for girls to attain puberty at the age of nine, and it is only abnormal if it occurs before the age of 7/8. As we know from the hadith, Aisha was certainly passed the age of nine!

Furthermore, the medical encyclopedia also notes:

Children of both sexes with early sexual development are more likely to have psycho-social problems. Children and adolescents generally want to be the same as their peers, and early sexual development can make them appear "different". This can result in self-esteem problems, depression, acting out at school and home, and alcohol and illegal substance abuse.(SOURCE)

Now we also know that Aisha rd did not fit these characteristics in the slightest way possible. She was then and remained since a confident, in fact very bold young women who took an active part in her community later assuming the role of leadership on a military level as well as an educational level.

And the major part that demonstrates that you didn't do your homework is the fact that this is an abnormality. But we have already established that the marriage was absolutely normal then. In fact Aisha was engaged to someone else before the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Please read the following links as you still have not addressed any of the points that were previously mentioned, and you continue to use red-herrings as your primary method of argumentation:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...e_of_Aishah/#6
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...e_of_Aishah/#8

Did you even read what I wrote in response?! I said it was a red-herring. In other words fistulas have nothing to do with the marriage of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. This is all related to prepubescent brides and the Prophet saws married Aisha rd after puberty!

Bin direnken, I highly suggest that you review the material posted here and provide evidence to support your conclusions about the Prophet's marriage as opposed to building your arguments on conjecture.

Regards

Oh my, Ansar, please review your information once again and open your mind to my words.

My point for bringing up precocious puberty was to emphasize that even children of four years of age have reached menses. You were associating females menstrual cycles with puberty and sexual readiness. And this is simply not the case as illustrated by the before mentioned. Sexual activity should only occur after a child has passed all of the 'milestones' of adulthood, and to do so prematurely is child endangerment. You can argue this point until you are blue in the face but the fact remains that it is not "normal" for a child to have sex. Period. (no pun intended And technically, because of this fact, Aisha was still a child and still socially considered a prepubescent.

If you review the material posted on the fistula webpage, you will see that this condition can occur in teens as well. Until a body is ready mature enough to handle all the demands that pregnancy brings, sexual intercourse should be avoided and frowned upon.

Again bin direnken, you failed to provide any evidence to support your claims.

Not only did you make a blunder by bringing up precocious puberty which doesn't apply to Aisha since she was past 9 years of age, but you failed to respond to the major points mentioned. The following two points have been established:

- it is normal for a girl to achieve puberty anywhere between nine and sixteen years of age (as per the medical references quoted previously)
- Aisha rd consummated her marriage after the age of nine
->therefore there is no reason to believe that Aisha was prepubescent, especially since many of the physical milestones of puberty such as menses, were recorded as happening before consummation of the marriage

For your case aginst the Prophet's marriage you would have to refute these points. If you cannot refute these points then your case is destroyed. So, no more evasions, no more red-herrings. I challenge you to respond to these points.

But the point is erroneous because precocious puberty is a specific condition that Aisha did not have, since she was past the age of nine. You ahve only demonstarted to us that you have no understanding of what you're talking abotu since precocious puberty only applies before the age of eight!!
As I pointed out before Aisha married the Prophet after the age of nine after the physical changes indicating puberty, one of which was her menses. Can you prove to me that the other changes did not occur? Your argument is the fallacy known as appeal to probability. Your argument can be expressed as follows:

1-it is possible that she did not go through puberty completely at the age of nine and only went through menses
2-therefore she did not go through puberty completely at the age of nine and only went through menses

Quite clearly 1 does not necessitate 2. So as I already demonstrated that it is normal for a girl to go through puberty at the age of nine (as per the medical references) especially in hot climates, then there is no reason to believe that she did not go through puberty.

Can you prove to me that Aisha did not pass all the milestones of adulthood? You seem to have a difficult time comprehending the clear quote from the encyclopedia which demonstartes that it is perfectly normal for a girl to go through puberty at the age of nine.

Which fact? You've been arguing on the basis of fallacies, biased opinions and remote possibilites all along! Prove to me that Aisha was prepubescent.

Then if fistulas can occur in post-pubescent women as well what does it prove?! Anyone in the world could be alleged to have had a fistula! Provide evidence.

Prove that Aisha was not mature enough to handle all the demnads that pregancy brings. I have already provided the references that show that it is perfectly normal for a nine-year old girl to attain puberty. Refute the medical references I have provided.

Peace

I am not here to teach simple concepts as I do with my patients, I am here to lend an understanding to a dangerous practice that people like you keep endorsing. I also am not a student in which I feel required to further demonstrate simple concepts that are elementary to even undergraduates. Let me assure you that I am fully qualified to pass judgment, based on the simple facts presented, from my studies, as well as from my years of practical experience. You are not facing a child.

Vesicovaginal fistulas happen for a reason. They are medically defined as an abnormal passage from an internal organ to the outside body surface and do not spontaneously occur in healthy individuals. Something is required to tear the opening and in this case it's too small of a passage that ruptures the upper reaches of the vagina during childbirth. According to a World Health Organization study conducted over 16 years ago, over two million women were living with obstetric fistulas. And most of these women were living in sub-Saharan Africa where early marriage and child pregnancy are the culprits of shame. I am failing to understand why this obvious evidence is so elusive to you but I really wish that you would put as much effort into women's studies and the safety of an entire gender as you do into prepubescent sex validation. Try Amnesty International if you would like specifics.

While it is true that menses is the textbook start of puberty, you cannot forget the other facets that have to be considered when speaking of a childs well being. Some young girls have one period and then it stops for a year or so. And others do not have "regular" menstrual cycles for quite a while. There are natural stages in this process such as prepuberty, where sexual development begins and lasts for about two years or so. And then there is postpuberty in which a person is first able to create offspring. What this boils down to is this. Just because a young girl is able to conceive does not mean that it is safe for her to carry an infant to term. And the elderly husbands/fathers who offer their consent to these crimes should really be more concerned about the safety and well being of their loved ones. A lack of education is mostly to blame.

In our day and age I think it is a waste of time to argue the point that fifty-some year old men should not be having sex with nine year old girls. That's why in civilized countries we have laws in place to protect those who need protecting. So I will leave this argument for more intellectually stimulating grounds. Thanks for your time and God help your daughters.

Hello bin diorenken,
I gave you a very simple and basic challenge and that was to respond to the two points I gave.
Unfortunately, it seems that either you didn't understand the challenge, or you have stubbornly refused to answer it. Again and again I have exposed the fallacious arguments you emplyed, yet you persist in completely ignoring the points made and bringing up more irrelevant issues. And simply feigning knowledge or authority is not going to work either. You need to provide accurate and relevant evidence to support your claims. So the following is not an example of relevant evidence:
Fistulas have absolutely no relevance here. As I pointed out in my very first post on the issue, what causes a fistula or who gets a fistula has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Aisha was past puberty when she married the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. You need to provide evidence that she had not reached puberty at that age even though medical texts affirm that is perfectly normal for such a thing to occur.
I already demonstrated that Aisha was post-pubescent. Thus, we have another example of a strawman fallacy.

Again you refuse to accept the fact that all medical encyclopedias have classified attaining puberty at the age of nine as NORMAL. Hence, there is no reason for us to believe that Aisha attained puberty any later.

I am offering you a final opportunity - either refute the following or admit your incapability to do so:
No more red-herrings about fistulas, etc. Prove that Aisha could not have been post-pubescent when she consummated her marriage with the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. No more off-topic rants will be tolerated; they will be deleted.

And technically, because of this fact, Aisha was still a child and still socially considered a prepubescent.

Are these your arguments?

* She was pubescent, but kind of "socially prepubescent" although socially, she was expected to marry.
* Well, in some parts of the world some people suffer from fistula.

The first argument is pathetic and the second one is irrelevant.

nice one brother. I like the ending to ur post.

Allah ma3ak

Astaghfirullah bin direnken!! why are you questioning this!
Allahu Alam. If Allah subhana wa t'ala excepted this then shouldn't we all.
After all, Allah is the creator and Allah has all the knowledge of the world a lot more than us. I would not bad mouth the Prophet sallahu alayhi wasalam, Astaghfirullah!!

as salam alaikum,
sista i totally agree, this was a command from allah subhana watha allah. who are we to question His intelligence? allah is the most knowledgble. That is, knowledge of the past, present and future. asthagirullah indeed!

jazakhAllah khair brother nicely said

yup your rite bro.....i think your up for a loosing battle Bin Dereken...may Allah help us all...and guide thoes who need guidance and help the rest to stay on the straight path...Ameen....

I'm not going to argue with someone who is obviously intellectually "challenged" when speaking medically, but feel it my obligation to correct your "fact" that "average" girls reach puberty by the first day of their ninth birthday. In reality, the "average" age of a young girls first menses is between the ages of twelve and fourteen, and not post second grade and mid-Barbies.

Not that early menses cannot happen earlier, I am just using this as an "average" for the purposes described on this message board. And although early menses is one aspect of quantifying the passing into maturity, the consensus amongst properly trained physicians, (and not website wannabe's) is that, physiologically, girls do not complete puberty until the "average" age of eighteen.

Hence, it's in the best interests of societies elders (who do know better) to make the age of eighteen a hallmark of sorts when discussing marriage and sexual readiness for the safety of our youth.

At least that is the basis for human behavior in civilized societies.