Again, as I already explained to you, we're not talking about prisoners of war. We're talking about enslaving free people outside the context of war. The Islamic state can punish someone who enslaves a free person outside of war.

As for war, this was explained earlier in this thread. No soldier was EVER allowed to enslave a captive that they chanced upon in war. Any captives obtained in war were turned over to the Islamic gov't which decided they're fate. This included the following options:
-ransoming captives or trading trading them for muslim prisoners of war captured by the enemy
-often freed in the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh if they could teach ten Muslims to read/write
-since the Islamic state did not have institutions or resources to shelter and take care of so many prisoners of war, they were entrusted to various families as servants. Slavery was the norm for prisoners of war but the Prophet Muhammad pbuh mandated that they be treated properly and not abused.

In the modern context I already explained that an Islamic state would be able to decide what is best for the prisoners of war and could easily afford the institutions necessary to shelter and care for such people.

Exactly. You should learn from those who do.

I have refuted your explanation. War can only be carried out by an Islamic state so please tell me how it is possible for someone to acquire a slave in an Islamic state?

I have provided the proof. I have given you many sources which agree that these are sacred hindu scriptures.

You have provided no answer whatsoever besides saying "plz don't tell me this or plz don't tell me that". You think this is evidence? You think this is a strong argument?

Any reasonable person would realize that that is exactly the same problem. All the slaves would be freed and the economy would collapse causing all of them to suffer.

If you believe that God did not create evil that means you DO believe in duality. Please research your terms properly before making such a mistake. The Zoroastrians are a perfect example for duality - they didn't believe that God could create evil so they said that there are two gods - Ahura Mazda and Ahriman, the former good and the latter evil.

And you have made another mistake. You said God didn't create evil but humans created evil - who created humans? God! Therefore you are saying God has indirectly created evil.

My point remains the same regardless. The question of why God allowed slavery to spread is exactly the same as the atheist's 'problem of evil' which asks, "If God is all powerful why did He create evil?"

I already told you it was prohibited. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh did not ignore the prohibition, but he put steps in place to remove slavery once again.

So you have failed my challenge. You couldn't do it because you realized it would render your posts nonsensical.

Absolutely.

Islam can be compared with mathematics. This is an adequate analogy. Islam cannot be compared with school. This is a false analogy.

Is that clear? I'm surprised I need to spell things out for you in such a basic manner.
His analogy serves the same purpose although the mathematics analogy is even more accurate.

There, I replaced the words for you. Now look how ridiculous your comments is.

Religion has not failed. God has not failed. Human beings have failed. They have failed to follow the religion of God and because they do not follow it how can they hope to achieve success?

Then you just contradicted yourself.

Muslims today no longer follow their rleigion and that is why they are suffering. Take it from me - I know the Muslim community, you don't.

Neither Taliban nor Saudi Arabia were/are pure Islamic governments. The Islamic government is a Khilafa. Neither of the two mentioned come close.

These questions have all been answered in the following thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ariah-law.html

Please read:
http://www.islamonline.net/english/I...rticle19.shtml

Everyone has the right and the need to at least learn the basics. They don't need to become mathematicians just like not every Muslim needs to become a great scholar. But just like no one rejects math as false simply because they have difficult learning it, likewise, that is also not a proper answer for Islam.

Regards

Bro Ansar, something came across my mind. In the Qur'an when it speaks of 'those whom your right hand posess'..... what does this mean?

Salam brother Ansar and thanks for ur reply again.

Brother we are talking about poor free ppls who were enslaved during the time of Islamic state, and we are talking about whether under islamic state slavery will return again or not. And I have clearly explained to U that coz the holy prophet had no objection enslaving free ppls so no islamic state can impose any kind of punishment for this.

Brother I think that its not so nicely-cooked-up story that U are telling me frequently. Why so many prisnors of war were to be captured in a state which was based on peace achieved through submission of GOD ie Islam. What was the need for peace achieved through submission of GOD state to add numbers of slaves while it was prohibited long ago by the peace achieved through submission of GOD?. Why the noble companions had to sleep with those poor female who were enjoying free life when the believers of peace achieved through submission of GOD, attacked them and took them as prisoners? And did sleeping with those femals didnt meant abusing them for the holy prophet? how come?

I m already following ur advice brother and thats why I m here in ur forum.

Brother I have frquently told u that iits only possible for someone to aquire a slave in an Islamic state, in kufr state one cant dare do that. I have frequently told U that all ur arguments are false and hypothetical one.

Brother I too had asked U that if giving some link of a website is enough proof in ur views than are u going to accept whatever is written there in a site? I can too give u many links which speaks otherwise about Islam.

.

Brother any reasonable person will tell U that if the holy prophet allowd slavery to happen and himself practised it than it was wrong on his part. And I only expect that the slaves wh o wanted to be free and return to their loved once should had been freed by peace achieve through submission to GOD state. At least to justify the name of Islam.

Brother I m sorry to say that ur religion which is peace achieved through submisson to GOD give this kind of lessons. I m sure this is why muslims over the world are yet to establish their identity as peace loving ppls. But I m comfortable with the thought that its us humans who created evil, not GOD.

Brother plz wake up giving this type of answers. how can u say that the peace achived through submission to GOD Prohibited slavery while the holy prophet himself practised it? U will have to choose one word, either prohibition or custom, U cant keep on saying that although slavery was prohibited by GOD but the holy prophet had no option but to practise it coz it was custom of that time. Offcource the holy prophet was sent to eradicate inhuman customs and not to be a part of them.

Brother just to honour ur challange I have used the phrase u wanted me to use instead of islam. and ya it really looks nonsensical. I think that in future I should not use that phrase. so plz dont challange me again, and even if U do I m not gonna honour it again, coz it really looks odd. But still I will argue that if u name the rose as thorn and thorn as rose than will the exact properties of rose and thron will change?

So brother when Dr Zakir Naik says that peace achieved through submission of GOD is spreading than he is saying the truth? show me where is peace achieved through submission of GOD? Is this peace which Submission of GOD promises? is yes than okay, I got ur point that what kind of society this religion of peace achieved through submisson of GOD promisees and thanks ALLAH that he kept me on right path. As a kafir.

Brother the exact problem with this religion of peace achieved through submisson of GOD is that its followers are always hell bent in proving the wrong to be right, Islam can be compared with Maths, Islam can be compared with Car.............than how come Islam cant be compared with a school? whats wrong with this analogy? and whats so special with the analogy of two great scholers of islam? my kafir mind is really unable to understand, ALLAH knows the best who is right.

U said it all, so did I.

So do u agree to my point that the religion of peace achieve through submission to GOD has produced more munafiqs than muslims? so how come U agree to the statement that peace achieved through GOD is spreading?

I term as yet another wrong statement from U.

Okay brother I got It. So I was wrong when I thought that at least this religion of peace achieved through submission of GODis not quiet disappeared. But with ur above statement I will have to rethink.

Thanks.

Incorrect. I already gave you the hadith, which cleary shows the Prophet's saws condemnation of those who enslave free people.

Please allow me to summarize what we have discussed.

-Enslaving free people comes under two categories:

a)enslaving those other than prisoners of war. This is categorically prohibited in Islam as seen in the hadith (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 34, 430) therefore, someone who does this can be punished by an Islamic state.
b) enslaving prisoners of war. A few points to note:

War can only be carried out by an Islamic state, therefore no person has the right to enslave a captive.
The captives become the responsibility of the Islamic state once they are captured. If the Islamic state has the institutions and resources available to shelter and care for the prisoners of war, then they will do so. Or the prisoners can be ransomed or exchanged for Muslim prisoners.
In the time of the Prophet saws they did not have the institutions or the capacity to shelter prisoners of war, consequently they were entrusted to Muslim families.

It is easy for people to say whatever they want, so let's read the historical facts about what happened in the time of the Prophet saws:

According to the traditions which prevailed at that time both in Arabia and outside, prisoners of war became slaves. This applied both to men and women. Two hundred families of Al-Mustalaq faced slavery as a result of their ill-considered plan to attack the Muslims. It should be emphasized here that such a prospect was not as terrible as one may think today. Slaves in the Muslim state enjoyed all their human rights as fellow human beings to their masters. This was true only in the land of Islam. Islam treats every individual as a human being who is susceptible to be a good servant of God. Hence no one is despised or looked down upon simply because he lacks in forune or bad circumstances.

Freeing a Whole Tribe
The Prophet, however, did not like this prospect for his vanquished enemies. His primary thoughts did not follow the tendencies of kings and emperors. First and foremost, he was a Messenger of God whose task was to save mankind from subjugation to false gods. He did not view the material wealth of the Muslim community as his top priority. He realized that an act of kindness might win over the hearts of yesterday's enemy.
yet the Prophet could not enact special legislation for the tribe of al-Mustalaq. As long as slavery was an international practice, the Muslims could not abolish it unilaterally. If any Muslims were ever taken prisoners in a battle, they would have been enslaved by their enemies. hence enemy prisoners had to be treated likewise. Yet the situation called for immediate action to help al-Mustalaq people before it was too late.
The Prophet played a master stroke which brought about the desired results without any adverse repercussions. Among the women taken prisoner was Barrah, daughter of Al-Hârith, chief of al-Mustalaq. The Prophet took her for himself, granted her freedom from slavery and proposed to her. When she accepted, he married and renamed her Juwayriyyah. When the Muslims realized what the Prophet had done, they felt that they could no longer keep the people of al-Mustalaq as their slaves. The whole tribe were considered relatives of the Prophet now that he had married one of their women. This is in keeping with the tribal traditions of Arabia. So all the Muslims who had slaves from al-Mustalaq voluntarily set them free. The Muslims loved the Prophet more than they loved themselves, therefore it was natural that they did not like to have his relatives as their slaves. Thus Juwayriyyah was celebrated by her tribe as a woman of unparalleled blessings. She was the cause of their change of fortunes from slavery to freedom. Sortly afterwards, many of them embraced Islam. (fn. Ibn Hishâm, op. cit., pp. 307-308. Also, Ibn Sayyid al-Nas, op. cit., p. 138/) (Adil Salahi, pp. 405-406)

See also my earlier post in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/127799-post10.html (Slave Girls)
This answers alll your questions. Slavery was not introduced by Islam, it was gradually prohibited.

You avoided the question! Again: HOW is someone going to acquire a slave in an Islamic state? Where would they get a slave?

Who is Apastamba? You tell me.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh took steps towards the gradual prohibition of slavery.

You have just committed the logical fallacy known as an ad hominem attack.

The atheists ask the question: If God is good and and all-powerful then why is there evil in the world? Is God capable of and willing to removing the evil in the world?

From the looks of it, you would have a very difficult time answering that question. I have given a detailed explanation on the 'problem of evil' in this thread (Problem of evil [temp. split from TEOG thread]) but for the purpose of the current thread I would just briefly point out that the existence of 'evil' in our lives is a trial from God. If there was no hunger, where would the test be to feed people? If there was no poverty, where would the test be to donate generously? If there was no injustice, where would the test be to establish justice? If there was no violence, where would the test be to establish peace?

Stop giving these answers? Why? Because I've answered all your questions and refuted all your claims?

And that is why he put steps in place to abolish slavery, such as the obligation to free slaves as expiation in many cases.

Enslaving is NOT the sunnah. Freeing slaves is the sunnah.

Thanks.

Even as we speak, millions of people are realizing the truth about God and accepting the path of submitting to Him by following His commands, thus attaining peace, both internal and external. Even on our forum we have dozens of converts.

I explained. Islam is something that is learned and studied as a subject. Islam is not a school, math is not a school, science is not a school. These are all things that are taught in school.

It is true that many have left the path of peace achieved through submission to God and they are no longer following God's commands. But it is also true that God is replacing them with people better than them who are willing to submit to God and love His path.

The political teachings of the religion are not being implemented in the world, but that doesn't mean that the other teachings are not.

Regards

Salam brother Ansar,

Well brother we have discuessed a lot about this issue. But I think that we havent moved anywhere. Althogh U succeeded in convincing me about the holy prophet's willingness to help out those poor slaves, but I failed to make u understand any of my point. Let me tell U that I have all the respects for the holy prophet and all the honour for ur emotions about him. I dont have any problem with islam too. But I have my own views about religions. I really feel uncomfortable when I have to talk about the holy prophet while discussing this subject. And further I almost agree whatever u tell me about good treatment prescribed by him. So not too much to discuess here. Still let me make it known to U that differences are still there.

Brother the time has changed, but muslim's differences with other religions have not been sorted out yet. NO one can deny that current world situation calls for jihad for a true islamic state. We cant imagine that the current situation will change overnight. So Jihad is bound to happen. And moreover ALLAH has promised muslims victory too..........Here I just dismiss ur modle of islamic state. Its ur perception. I can imagine that when Jews, Christians, and Mushriks will become PoW than how islamic government is going to treat them. Offcource they can be soft on them and enslave them with the instruction of good food or cloting. But I cant imagine that how the jew ppls are going to be treated, upon whom Dr. Zakir Naik quotes that sucide bombing is halal coz all israili jews are army personals. They surely deserve slavery, thanks to their cruel acts. So plz dont ask me where the slaves willl come from. Just let any Islamic state become a reality. Slave dynesty is going to revive Inshallah. Good news for the wealthy of the world.

Brother honestly I dont know and nor I m interested in knowing. So U will find 99 out of 100 hindus not knowing that much about ancient hinduism as U do, plz check it out by going to any hindu chat room on YAHOO. its my request to U, or if u can ask some hindus personally than plz do that. U will feel proud of urself for knowing about the other religion hundred times more than an average hindu.

Okay.

Brother I agree with the later part of ur statement. But evil is somethig else. Evil is misusing of the power in crushing the creation of GOD, And often this is done in the name of service to GOD. Evil is raping some helpless lady. Evil is killing some innocent. I cant really give u the name of all but there are definetely thousands. So I again say, GOD hasnt created evil, or satan, its created by us humans. And as far as the question of atheists is concerned I can give the answer according to my viewpoint. But at the end of day I believe that we cant learn ALL thats in GOD's mind. So we should do our duty and leave rest on ALLAH, According to hinduism.....GOD has said in Bhagvat Gita that just do ur duty, U will get proper return for ur deeds by me. So plz think again that who has created rape. GOD or human? Who has created killing? and who have created the real evil on earth. I know U wont agree, but I just wanted to make my views known to u. coz I know urs.


Its good if u have refuted all my claims, plz accept my congratulations too. There are many more ahead waiting too.

Okay.

Brother I m short of time right now, so I wil answer remaining part of ur post tomorrow Inshallah. Its bed time in India.

Thanks.

Thank you justahumane, it is wonderful to know that we have been successful in clarifying confusion through this dialogue.

err...what?
In the event of a new Islamic gov't and a new war breaks out, God forbid, there are a few things to keep in mind. First of all, anyone who is captured comes under the jurisdiction of the Islamic gov't and not the soldiers. The Islamic government has to look at what is best for the collective state. Since resources and institutions would be able available to imprison prisoners, there is no reason why the gov't would attempt to re-institute slavery, especially when it has been abolished on a global level. Such actions would not serve any purpose.
First, prisoners of war cannot be treated badly just because we don't like them. That is haraam. Please see the rights of Prisoners of war:
http://www.islamicboard.com/depth-is...tml#post173422

Secondly, if you want to attribute something to Dr. Naik, please provide a quote and we can discuss it.

The atheist would ask, "Why does God permit such evil things to occur?"

Just like you asked me, "Why did God permit slavery to develop?"

Thanks. It good of you to accept that as well; I'm sure we can be very productive with such open-minded dialogue.

Sweet dreams.

Salam brother Ansar and thanks for ur post.

Well its good that millions of ppls are realizing the truth of Islam and following the commands of ALLAH. But I m really yet to see some group of ppls who are doing that. I too know some hindu converts, but they only converted coz they wanted to do adultry outside of marriage and Indian laws didnt permit them to do so. So they had to embrace Islam to marry again to ditch their first wife. If ur claims of millions converting and submitting to the path of ALLAH, in the moment we speak, is true than I m sure that very soon we are going to see good effects of this, Inshallah.

In fact brother, I was adviced to read holy quran and to know islam by a very close friend of mine who wanted me to convert to Islam. And I did this for her, ie tried to know about Islam. but couldnt believe. Reasons were many. Like the claim of ALLAH that he has made muslims the best Ummah in the world. I suspect this claim. I sincerely wish that ur claim reggarding new muslims are true so that very soon we can see the good effects on the society and world.

Brother a religion is a school which gives us lessons to shape up our future and morale. Religion is not only something to learn. Religion is something which is supposed to make us humans good human beings. And the moment it starts proving to be counter productive than it is bound to come under a scanner.

If it is true than isnt it logical and binding on a muslim scholer that when he speaks starting from Bismillah than he should not speak lies about the number of ppls who follow the path of peace achieved through submission of GOD. When some prominent muslim scholer claims in the name of ALLAH that today there are 1400 million ppls who are following the path of peace achieved through submission to GOD than obviously he is lying and commiting a sin, dont u agree?

Brother plz permit me to call it yet another wrong statement from U. Is refraining from interest is political teaching of islam? How many countries U know where interest is not permissible? There are many many more non-political teachings which are not being implemented.


Well brother although U have advocated ur cause very well still U just fall short of being reasonable. I must emphasize on that the best option for the Islamic government in any such situation will be to abide by holy quran and hadiths. I admit that ur personal views are very noble one in this regard, but i suspect whether the men in the saddle will think the way U think. And precedents too are not going them to allow to deal with PoWs the way U propose. Furter I dont think that Islamic state will take its decisions according to global situations and not its own precedents.

Right brother, I m going to start a new therad very soon where we can discuess the quotes of Dr. Naik and other issues which will arise. But only after taking ur permission.

Brother I have something to complain. U quote my words in pieces according to ur choice. Almost all of ur posts are example of it. ie quoting my words out of context and in parts. I never asked u such thing like why did GOD permit slavery to develop? So U cant draw parreral with what athiest would ask,using my words. Let me remind u my question again. I asked U that,

This was my exact question brother, that why Islam didnt take any measure when slavery was in the process of being deep rooted in the society. If u didnt understand my question let me again try. When ALLAH revealed the commands to the earlier prophets of Islam then why he never made this inhuman practice as unlawful? I m only talking about any commands from ALLAH and not any action from him against those who enslaved ppls. Like the atheists. I hope now I can make u understand.

Thanks.

Inshaa'Allah, but the biggest obstacle to that is the negative propaganda and slander that is being spread about Islam, reminiscent of the Nazi propaganda campaign against the Jews prior to the holocaust.

Please cite the verse and then we can discuss.

Religion is not a person or group of people that teach. Religion, or specifically Islam, is what is in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. The Qur'an and Sunnah don't suddenly come in the form of teachers and teach themselves to us. You need to create education institutions to bring the knowledge of islam to the people.

Suppose we have two Islamic schools. One of them is providing students with excellent education, giving them the tools to analyze and implement the Islamic laws, and becoming an active contributor to society, with a balanced personality. The other school simply makes students memorize arabic phrases that they don't understand. If we make a judgement, we will be judging the quality of the schools, NOT Islam. In order to judge Islam, you have to go to the original sources and analyze what the religion teaches.

To say that there are 1.4/1.6 billion Muslims in the world is not a lie, but merely giving the people the benefit of the doubt. In this context we are discussing how many people outwardly profess to be Muslims, but every scholar agrees that we cannot objectively state how many people are actually submitting in their hearts to Allah.

Most Muslims that I know do not take interest, so yes this teaching is being implemented. Just because the governments are not implementing it does not mean it isn't. Many people are implementing it.

The Islamic state is buuilt on shura (consultation), not dictatorship. And the Islamic guidelines are also very clear for people.
Let's talk about Islamic precedents.

Thumaamah ibn Athaal – the leader of Bani Haneefah – was brought (to Madeenah) as a prisoner and tied to one of the pillars of the mosque. The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to him and said, “What do you think, O Thumaamah?” He said, “What I think, O Muhammad, is good. If you kill me, you will kill one with blood on his hands – i.e., I will deserve to be killed because I have killed Muslims – and if you release me you will release one who will be grateful. If you want money, then ask, and I will give you whatever you want.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) left him for three days, and each day he would come and ask him similar questions, and Thumaamah would give similar answers. After the third day, he commanded that he should be released. Thumaamah went to a stand of date-palms near the mosque where he bathed (did ghusl), then he came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, “I bear witness that there is no god except Allaah and I bear witness that Muhammad is the slave of Allaah and His Messenger.” Then he said: “O Messenger of Allaah, by Allaah there was no one on earth whose face was more hateful to me than yours, but now your face is the most beloved of all faces to me. By Allaah, there was no religion that was more hateful to me than your religion, but now your religion has become the most beloved of all religions to me. By Allaah, there was no land more hateful to me than your land, but now your land has become the most beloved to me. Your cavalry captured me when I was on my way to perform ‘Umrah, so what do you think I should do?”

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be