Ok then....

Proposition: The Koran claims Jesus shaped a bird from clay, which became a bird and flew away.

Truth: In 5:110 (The table spread) Allah says to Jesus says: 'how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird'

Conclusion: This is knowledge of the Koran

.....however.....

This is not knowledge of the real world. Jesus did not create a living bird from clay. This is not possible.

We know it is not possible, but we have knowledge of it happening. Isa(as) did make a bird of clay and it did fly off. It could only be done by the permission of Allaah(swt) a man could not do so.

No, you are still not getting it, the Qur'an's author refers to Knowledge as being praiseworthy, the Question araises, what type of knowlegde is they author refering to?

As you see, could it be, knowledge which one memorises of the hadith, or is it knowledge of the natural world? Or is it a different type of knowledge.


Your example should read:

Conclusion: The Qur'an claims certain events to have happend, Jesus making birds out of clay ect.

This could be knowledge of what really happend, but cannot be variefied if we use the yardstick of historians, as it is a historical event for which there are no historically accepted sources.

What we may say is, according to our experiences in life this event has never happend before, and therefore maybe seen as unlikely!

But there is no evidence of this happening.

In which case you can arbitrarily choose what is true and what is not, with no evidence.

For example:

'Harry potter does some things which are impossible, he uses magic'.

Did this really happen?

How do you differentiate between the two?

Or as a more direct example, any ancient text which contains things which we know to be impossible, but were helped with the power of a god. There are many stories from many different cultures.

How do you tell which one is true and which is not with no evidence of any being true?

Regards

You work within a context, i.e. why would you need to know if it is true? Some events do not concern us, so I have no motive/reason to find out if they are true or not.

But surly this underpins your life as a Muslim? If these things are not true, then maybe others are not true. Maybe Allah does not exist, how would you know?

If you just assume it is true, then it is a totally arbitrary decision, probably instilled through the culture in which you were brought up.

We are very lucky in the 21st century; there are good methods of finding what is true and what is not.

The truth of the reasons I live my life like I do mean a lot to me, I would never base a decision of truth on an arbitrary choice where it affects me and those around me.

The truth of these things matters a great deal.

Regards

Ok, so now we have a context, these things need to be known to be true or not for a Muslim.

I would reply that they do not, I do not hold that every single ayota of my faith should be proven scientifically/historically (i.e. with a measurement of authority used by some). The question then arises, why?

Why do you think everything should be proven?

And Why do I not?

I hold that I do not need everything to be proven right, in this circumstance, because I hold the opinion that the teaching comes from God, if, now this is the crucial if, as I hold, the teaching came from God, then I can fully trust it without the need of checking everything, 1.Because I trust God, 2.Because I do not have the same ability at hand which God has through which He Knows and I do not.

Then you are satisfied by living your life by assumptions, faith.

I am not.

The reason for this is that there are many people who claim to 'know', different, contradicting things through faith. Only 1 or none of these claims can be true.

Using evidence and testing claims is the only way to gain real knowledge about the world.

How do you decide what is correct when two things disagree? Are you really satisfied with simply assuming that what you currently believe is true and not testing these assumptions?

if you were born in a different part of the world or different time, and had the same attitude you would believe in the Jesus as a God, or Vishnu, Thore or Zeus.

Regards

I dont want to change the topic of the original poster, so here is your post and my reply to it:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post955037 (Test Everything Before Belief)

Regards,