Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study - Page 5

snakelegs · **Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study -** 08-27-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoName55

how do we know that many prophets had tens of wives? thru hadith? then does that become sunnah for us to follow?

why do we circumcise males? because it is sunnah of Hazrat Abraham

hadith that confirms a command = Sunnah
hadith that relates a story = ? (historic record of an event)

edit: further details and examples will be sent to you by pm when I am able to get someone to type for me or I can copy paste from some other source)

thanks for the clarification. i'd never thought about that distinction.
btw, i never got your PM.

snakelegs · **Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study -** 08-27-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Muwahhidah

Not necessarily. There are many important things which are not discussed in the Qur'an, but are explained in the Sunnah. Not all aspects of the Shahaada, Salah, Sawm, Hajj, and Zakah are expalined in Islam. And these are the pillars of Islam.

So what can we expect from other than them, such as the punishments for the fornicator/adulterer, thief, apostate etc. Remember there are two types of revelation, so not everything must be revealed in the Qur'an, it may also be revealed through the Sunnah.

No, that is incorrect. Please read this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...ut-mahram.html (Women Traveling Without a Mahram)

There's nothing from the sources that suggests that killing the apostate is only limited to the time of the Prophet. These things have not been specifically abbrogated in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Unless something has been specificaly stated that it is khaas (specified, i.e. just for him/her, that time etc.) then it is 'aam (unspecificied, for all).

However, as for killing the apostate, that has to be done through the Imaam. It isn't for us to take it upon ourselves.

i realize the importance of hadiths for the reasons you have said - they fill in specifics. but i have trouble with things as important as capital punishment not being in qur'an, where god is clearly saying that he will carry out the punishment.
no, it is not specifically stated that this is limited to a specific time and circumstances. but, obviously not everything in the hadith is for all time, regardless of context?
is the fact that a hadith has been classified as "sahih" put it beyond the realm of being able to question it?
these are, after all, the words of men - even though there is a whole science of classifying them and rules for the "sahih" classification.
when is time and circumstance taken in to account?
as for the woman traveling without mahram -(the questiion re: context)

here is what i read:

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Quote:

Depending on this general text, some scholars are of the opinion that a woman should not travel by herself. Other scholars stipulate that her travel is permissible in the company of a trustworthy group of men or men and women. The prohibition conveyed by the hadith is justified by fearing that the woman may be exposed to mischief or temptation if she travels alone, bearing in mind that the dangers of travel were numerous in the past. Caliph `Umar ibn al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) allowed the Prophet’s wives (Mothers of the Believers) to travel for Hajj with a group of believers and sent with them `Uthman ibn `Affan and `Abdul-Rahman ibn `Auf.

In the hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to `Adiy ibn Hatim we read: “If you live long, you will see the woman travel from Hirah (a city in Iraq) to circumambulate the Ka`bah fearing none but Allah.” (Reported by al-Bukhari)

This confirms that the cause (of the prohibition) is fear (of insecurity). If security is guaranteed and fear is no more present, a woman may travel, particularly nowadays when travel has become easy, whether by air, train or coach. In all these means of transportation, company is available and security is realized for the Muslim.

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ut-mahram.html

this was the link, but it no longer works - apparently that thread was deleted because it was a repeat of a similar thread.
this indicates that sometimes context is taken in to account. i am curious when is it a consideration and when isn't it and who decides?

NoName55 · **Women Traveling Without a Mahram -** 08-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by snakelegs

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ut-mahram.html

this was the link, but it no longer works - apparently that thread was deleted because it was a repeat of a similar thread.
this indicates that sometimes context is taken in to account. i am curious when is it a consideration and when isn't it and who decides?

try these:

Women Traveling Without a Mahram

What is intended here is that a woman should not travel alone without a mahram. If she does so, i.e. travels without a mahram, she would be disobeying ...

Woman travelling to seek knowledge without a mahram

Depending on this general text, some scholars are of the opinion that a woman should not travel by herself. Other scholars stipulate that her travel is ...

Travelling with Sister and Brother-in-law

... (Jerusalem Mosque), and I heard him also say: A woman should not travel for two days' duration, but only when there is a Mahram with her or her husband. ...

QUIZ: How much SUNNAH do U KNOW?!?!? - Page 39 (QUIZ: How much SUNNAH do U KNOW?!?!?)

Narated By Ibn 'Umar : The Prophet said, "A woman should not travel for more than three days except with a Dhi-Mahram (ie a male with whom she cannot marry ...

Faizah · **Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study -** 08-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by snakelegs

i realize the importance of hadiths for the reasons you have said - they fill in specifics. but i have trouble with things as important as capital punishment not being in qur'an, where god is clearly saying that he will carry out the punishment.
no, it is not specifically stated that this is limited to a specific time and circumstances. but, obviously not everything in the hadith is for all time, regardless of context?
is the fact that a hadith has been classified as "sahih" put it beyond the realm of being able to question it?
these are, after all, the words of men - even though there is a whole science of classifying them and rules for the "sahih" classification.
when is time and circumstance taken in to account?

The authentic ahadeeth are not just the words of men, rather they are the words of the Messenger of Allah. If a hadeeth is authentic, then there is no questioning it. Unless ofcourse you are a scholar and you doubt that it is authentic, based on certain evidences. However, if a hadeeth certainly is authentic, then there is no questioning it. Because it is the words of the one whom Allah sent to convey the message of Islam. Allah says,

Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

[3:31]

Therefore, Allah's Love is earnt through following the Messenger. But as for you having trouble with the issue of apostacy, then there's not much I can do for you there. The ahadeeth about that are authentic, therefore it is a part of Islam. In fact, the following hadeeth is recorded in Bukhari (3017); "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." The apostate is first asked to repent by a Qadhi in an Islamic country, and if he refuses then he is executed. Maybe this will help clarify:
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=696&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=811&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=20327&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=14231&ln=eng&txt

Just because someone is punished in this world, it does not mean they will not be punished in the Hereafter. An apostate has left the realm of Islam, therefore he/she will inevitably spend enternity in Hell. But we have also been told through the Sunnah that the punishment of the apostate is death in this world. So we hear and we obey, there's simply nothing else to it.

About your question on context. I'm not sure, but I will ask someone more knowledgeable for you inshaAllah.

Quote:

as for the woman traveling without mahram -(the questiion re: context)

here is what i read:

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ut-mahram.html

this was the link, but it no longer works - apparently that thread was deleted because it was a repeat of a similar thread.
this indicates that sometimes context is taken in to account. i am curious when is it a consideration and when isn't it and who decides?

The ahadeeth about women taking a mahrem when travelling are not specified to a certain time, therefore they apply at all times. This is the opinion that I follow, and this is what I have read/heard from the majority of scholars and students of knowledge whose books/lectures/fataawa I have come across. The Prophet salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam said, “It is not lawful for a woman that believes in Allaah and the Last Day to travel the distance of a day unless accompanied by a mahram.” And that is what we should follow. The key word here being mahrem. A group of women cannot serve as a mahrem. As shaykh Fawzan states:

Quote:

Therefore, a woman’s mahram is any male that she is forbidden (to marry) due to a family-tie or some allowable reason. This forbiddance (of marriage) must also be endless, i.e. everlasting.

Also see here. The shaykh further states:

Quote:

Some people today claim that there is no problem if a woman travels by airplane and her mahram dispatches her in the departure airport while another mahram picks her up at the arrival airport. And the Prophet SalAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said: “It is not lawful for a woman that believes in Allaah and the Last Day to travel the distance of two days unless accompanied by a mahram.” This applies to whether she travels on foot, by car or on a riding beast. The Prophet SalAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam did not specify. However, the cause is there, and it is due to the fitnah that is feared will befall her – even if she is on an airplane. So she is not safe from Fitnah even on board a plane.

Furthermore, let’s suppose for example that the airplane is forced to change destination and so it lands in a different country – who will pick her up in this other country? That is why there must be a mahram present along with the woman. This is such that once a man came to the Prophet SalAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam and said: “O Messenger of Allaah, I have enlisted for such and such battle expedition, but my wife has gone out for Hajj.” The Prophet SalAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam told him: “Go back and make Hajj with your wife.” [6]

The Prophet SalAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam turned this man from battle so that he may accompany his wife on Hajj and serve as a mahram for her. This is proof that having a mahram is a condition for a woman to travel on Hajj or to other places, regardless of whether she is with a group of people or not. This is why the scholars of Fiqh, may Allaah have mercy on them, mentioned that one of the conditions in which Hajj becomes obligatory on a woman is when she has a mahram available to travel with her. So if one is not available for her, she is then not obligated to make Hajj until a mahram does become accessible for her…”

So even though Hajj is one of the pillars of Islam, the woman is not permitted to make Hajj until she has a mahram, and she is excused until she does. See here, here and here. So what about travelling for matters which are not obligatory, or even recommended? Allah knows best. You can also visit the following links about the mahrem issue:

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=316&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=102494&ln=eng
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=22369&ln=eng

Allah knows best. May He forgive me for saying anything incorrect.

snakelegs · **Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study -** 08-28-2007

thanks for both of your replies. i haven't checked out the links yet and will do so later, when i can concentrate better. (and am not half asleep).
just wanted to clarify, that both in the case of apostasy and in the case of women travelling without a mahram, i was interested in the principles rather than the specifics.
which were about questioning a sahih hadith and applying the criteria of context in legal rulings in evaluating a hadith and its applicability in our time.
i know the apostasy ruling is based on sahih hadith. as for my other question about questioning hadiths that are classed as sahih, your answer is al muwahhidah is very clear on that one. it's something i've wondered about.
thanks!

NoName55 · 05:17 PM

something to read by by Brothers. Estes & Zarabozo
Leaving Islam - Apostasy in Islam

and/or watch a video
Apostasy - Dr. Bilal Philips

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBJmm-nfEow[/media]click here for futher enlightenment

snakelegs · **Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study -** 08-28-2007

thanks.
again - it wasn't the apostasy itself that i was concerned about but i will check it out later.

snakelegs · **Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study -** 08-29-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Muwahhidah

The authentic ahadeeth are not just the words of men, rather they are the words of the Messenger of Allah. If a hadeeth is authentic, then there is no questioning it. Unless ofcourse you are a scholar and you doubt that it is authentic, based on certain evidences. However, if a hadeeth certainly is authentic, then there is no questioning it. Because it is the words of the one whom Allah sent to convey the message of Islam. Allah says,

Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

[3:31]

Therefore, Allah's Love is earnt through following the Messenger. But as for you having trouble with the issue of apostacy, then there's not much I can do for you there. The ahadeeth about that are authentic, therefore it is a part of Islam. In fact, the following hadeeth is recorded in Bukhari (3017); "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." The apostate is first asked to repent by a Qadhi in an Islamic country, and if he refuses then he is executed. Maybe this will help clarify:
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=696&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=811&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=20327&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=14231&ln=eng&txt

Just because someone is punished in this world, it does not mean they will not be punished in the Hereafter. An apostate has left the realm of Islam, therefore he/she will inevitably spend enternity in Hell. But we have also been told through the Sunnah that the punishment of the apostate is death in this world. So we hear and we obey, there's simply nothing else to it.

About your question on context. I'm not sure, but I will ask someone more knowledgeable for you inshaAllah.

The ahadeeth about women taking a mahrem when travelling are not specified to a certain time, therefore they apply at all times. This is the opinion that I follow, and this is what I have read/heard from the majority of scholars and students of knowledge whose books/lectures/fataawa I have come across. The Prophet salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam said, “It is not lawful for a woman that believes in Allaah and the Last Day to travel the distance of a day unless accompanied by a mahram.” And that is what we should follow. The key word here being mahrem. A group of women cannot serve as a mahrem. As shaykh Fawzan states:

Also see here. The shaykh further states:

So even though Hajj is one of the pillars of Islam, the woman is not permitted to make Hajj until she has a mahram, and she is excused until she does. See here, here and here. So what about travelling for matters which are not obligatory, or even recommended? Allah knows best. You can also visit the following links about the mahrem issue:

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=316&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=102494&ln=eng
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=22369&ln=eng

Allah knows best. May He forgive me for saying anything incorrect.

no, i am not having an issue about apostasy perse, as that has been dealt with many times, and i'm aware of the rulings.
as for the hijaab one, i guess i was mistaken about time and context on this one.
to put my question a little more clearly -
are there times when context (time and circumstances) are taken in to account when ruling on an authentic hadith? or is it only in instances when it is self-explanatory?
i understand what you've said about authentic hadith and i will not argue about it, even though i regard them as what men say the prophet said, even if they have been classified as authenitc. but, after all, it's your religion, so my opinion doesn't really make much difference in the long run.

so i understand that you are not to question them if they have been classified as sahih.

snakelegs · **Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study -** 08-29-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoName55

Leaving Islam - Apostasy in Islam

Apostasy - Dr. Bilal Philips

that particular video arroused my spyware program (trend microvirus) so i didn't watch it. i've never run into that on youtube before.
but i think i understand the apostasy law ok from previous threads and reading.

Faizah · **Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study -** 08-29-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by snakelegs

no, i am not having an issue about apostasy perse, as that has been dealt with many times, and i'm aware of the rulings.
as for the hijaab one, i guess i was mistaken about time and context on this one.
to put my question a little more clearly -
are there times when context (time and circumstances) are taken in to account when ruling on an authentic hadith? or is it only in instances when it is self-explanatory?
i understand what you've said about authentic hadith and i will not argue about it, even though i regard them as what men say the prophet said, even if they have been classified as authenitc. but, after all, it's your religion, so my opinion doesn't really make much difference in the long run.

so i understand that you are not to question them if they have been classified as sahih.

I promised that I would ask for you, and this is the response that I got:

Quote:

Different rulings are different with respect to their amicability to change with changing circumstances. Some – especially those pertaining to matters of worship – are beyond our ability to rationally understand. They are timeless and do not change except where specific textual evidence dictates an exception. For instance, the `Asr prayer is four units. No one can change that on the basis of changing circumstances except where the texts specifically indicate it – like in the case of a traveler.

Other matters are clearly contingent on circumstances. This is the case for many practical matters of the law. In some cases, this contingency is clearly stated in the texts themselves. In others, it is understood from the texts or from other more general texts.

Fatwâ Department Research Committee of IslamToday chaired by Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî

If a hadith is classified as authentic, can we reject just because we don't particularly agree with it? No. Because what we feel is right or wrong does not make a hadeeth inauthentic. If however you have some tangible evidence to prove that it is not the words of the Prophet (salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam), then yes, you have a reason to reject. We don't just reject hadeeths based on our whims and desires. If i said something, and someone then proved it to you (that I said that), should you reject that I said that because you don't agree with the statement? Islam in itself means submission, so the Muslim should submit to the truth whether it be for him or against him.

snakelegs · **Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study -** 08-29-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Muwahhidah

I promised that I would ask for you, and this is the response that I got:

If a hadith is classified as authentic, can we reject just because we don't particularly agree with it? No. Because what we feel is right or wrong does not make a hadeeth inauthentic. If however you have some tangible evidence to prove that it is not the words of the Prophet (salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam), then yes, you have a reason to reject. We don't just reject hadeeths based on our whims and desires. If i said something, and someone then proved it to you (that I said that), should you reject that I said that because you don't agree with the statement? Islam in itself means submission, so the Muslim should submit to the truth whether it be for him or against him.

thank you for getting the answer!
i assume only a scholar would know when to apply context and when not to. again, i guess it's pretty much common sense.
i understand what you believe about the hadith. of course you cannot pick and choose and follow your whims.
i have no desire to argue.
i was just trying to get a glimpse of islam's views on knowledge and at least at the moment, they have all been answered.
thanks for your trouble.

Faizah · **Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study -** 08-29-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by snakelegs

thank you for getting the answer!
i assume only a scholar would know when to apply context and when not to. again, i guess it's pretty much common sense.
i understand what you believe about the hadith. of course you cannot pick and choose and follow your whims.
i have no desire to argue.

Yes, you'd need to be a person of knowledge in order to understand when the context applies, as this is not always clear. I have no desire to argue either (even though I do it alot).

Quote:

i was just trying to get a glimpse of islam's views on knowledge and at least at the moment, they have all been answered.
thanks for your trouble.

It was no trouble at all!

	(#65 (permalink))
snakelegs nusrat fanatic Status: Offline Posts: 6,251 Reputation: 28461 Rep Power: 59 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: California Way of Life: Agnostic	Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study - 08-28-2007 thanks for both of your replies. i haven't checked out the links yet and will do so later, when i can concentrate better. (and am not half asleep). just wanted to clarify, that both in the case of apostasy and in the case of women travelling without a mahram, i was interested in the principles rather than the specifics. which were about questioning a sahih hadith and applying the criteria of context in legal rulings in evaluating a hadith and its applicability in our time. i know the apostasy ruling is based on sahih hadith. as for my other question about questioning hadiths that are classed as sahih, your answer is al muwahhidah is very clear on that one. it's something i've wondered about. thanks! __________________ each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles question authority

	(#66 (permalink))
NoName55 Account Disabled Status: Offline Posts: 2,706 Reputation: 14644 Rep Power: 0 Join Date: Jan 2007 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study - 08-28-2007 *something to read by* by Brothers. Estes & Zarabozo *Leaving Islam - Apostasy in Islam* and/or watch a video Apostasy - Dr. Bilal Philips [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBJmm-nfEow[/media]click here for futher enlightenment Last edited by NoName55; 08-29-2007 at 05:17 PM..

	(#67 (permalink))
snakelegs nusrat fanatic Status: Offline Posts: 6,251 Reputation: 28461 Rep Power: 59 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: California Way of Life: Agnostic	Re: Questions About Islam's Views on Knowledge/Study - 08-28-2007 thanks. again - it wasn't the apostasy itself that i was concerned about but i will check it out later. __________________ each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles question authority