I request the Mods to please allow the discussion to take place, both sides should be allowed to express their views especially when a question regarding the Issue was asked.

Brother Ahmad provided a Quote from Al-Maghrib forum which is supposed to be a Neutral forum.

Quote from Yasir Qadhi:

Quote from Ahmad


The reason Brother Ahmad cannot find this Incident in Ibn Kathirs Tafsir, and I presume he looked at the translation, is because the the incident was omitted from the translation, now why would they do such a thing, well because they must have believed this is promoting shirk, now the Question arises did not Ibn Kathir think that by including this Incident in his Tafsir commentating on an Ayah which tells us to go to the prophet, that he would be promoting Shirk?

Do not try and deny this exists in Ibn Kathirs Tafsir, it is in any Arabic version [or any un edit Arabic version] and i have given the full Arabic text above.
Sidi Yasir said that Scholars of the Past said Tawassul through the status of the Prophet was permissible, what he should have accepted was Scholars of the past believed it was permissible for Tawassul through the Prophet, meaning Tawassul by requesting the Prophet [Peace be upon him] at his grave to supplicate to Allah on our behalf.

As is evident from the Incident of Utbi i posted above and those that narrated it which I will mention below.

Now those that do this practice get condemned of Committing Shirk, But those that endorsed this practice by narrating this Incident and thus making it well known without stating that this incident is an example of Shirk do not get condemned.

The following Scholars have cited this Incident; I have given the full references of where each Scholar has mentioned this Incident in my previous post 28 of the thread linked below.

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...-haraam-2.html

Imam Nawawi,

Ibn Jama`a,

Ibn `Aqil,

Ibn Qudama,

al-Qurtubi,

Samhudi

Dahlan

Ibn Kathir,

Abu al-Faraj ibn Qudama,

al-Bahuti al-Hanbali,

Taqi al-Din al-Subki

Ibn al-Jawzi

al-Bayhaqi

Ibn `Asakir

Ibn Hajar al-Haytami,

Ibn al-Najjar,

The least that those that practice this practice can expect is that those that condemn them also have the courage to speak up and condemn these Scholars.

Brother Ahmad gave this Quote saying it was related to the Issue, yet it was not as Tawassul by the status of the Prophet and Tawassul through the Prophet are completely different Issues.

Now the Question arises is there anything in the Quran or Sunnah that proves this is Shirk?

According to Brother Ahmad it is Shirk, I await to see how this is Shirk.
It is true that our Aqeedah is not based on what the Scholars views where, but at least condemn these Scholars as promoting Shirk if you feel that way, and also provide you evidences to how you can make such a claim.

salaam

elo stooodent

well well, lol theirs so much other thins to discuss in islam, but us muslims debate amongst ourselfs whether this is right or this is not wrong!

basically i would personally say tawassul through RasoolAllah (saw) is wrong, because right now RasoolAllah (saw) is not with us, if he was with us, and alive then it would be okie dokie,

as their have been many instances in a hadiths in tirmidhi, of the blind man, where RasoolAllah (sal allah hu aley hi wasalam) says to the blind man, pray 2 rakahs and then ask intercession fru d Prophet (sal allah hu aleyhi wasalam) for his eyesight back. also in sahih bukhari theres a instance of Hadhrat Umar (ra) asking for rain and sayin " o Allah for the sake of your Prophet (pbuh) make it rain" BUT all these incidents happened durin the life of RasoolAllah (sal allah hu aleyhi wasalam)

and in the quran there is evidence that it shouldnt be done, because why ask through someone, when you can directly ask Allah (swt)? even though RasoolAllah (saw) is mashallah the butifullest, greatest of all people! i would say doin tawasul fru him is wrong

in the Quran in surah al anaam v 51 it says

"give this warnin to those in whose (hearts) is the fear that they will be brought (to judgement) before their lord, they will have no protector no intercessor"

also surah al isra v 56-57

"say: call on those who you desire, beside him. they have neither the power to remove your troubles from you nor to change them. those whom they call upon do desire (themselfs) the waseela to their lord, even those who are nearest"

in this surah its sayin that, the people who you call upon, call upon Allah (swt) themselfs, and they dont have the power to help you!!!

also RasoolAllah (sal allah hu aleyhi wasalam) is told in the quran in surah al araf v188 to say

"i have no control to benefit or harm for myself"

also in a hadiths in sahih bukhari n muslim

RasoolAllah (sal allah hu aleyhi wasalam) says to Hadhrat Fatima

"o faatimah, seek comfort from my waelth as much as you wish, but i cannot avail you from Allah(swt)

so when RasoolAllah (sal allah hu aleyhi wasalam) is himself sayin i cant help you regardin matters with Allah (swt), bro that means he cant, inshallah he will do shifa for us on the day of judgement, but how do you know Allah (swt) will aceept it??

so, isnt it jus easier to ask directly from Allah (swt)

manz is gona finish off wit a verse we read everyday but fail to realise its power ....

iyyaka na budu wa iyyaka nas ta eeen

"YOU ALONE we worship, YOU ALONE we ask for help"

: brap brap point proven

Again, not to argue or debate, because it is simply no use to argue with those that are unwilling to listen, but to simply put some things forward, lest I be held accountable by Allah for not putting it forward:

2: 186. And when My slaves ask you (O Muhammad ) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them by My Knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor). So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright.

40: 60. And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, (and ask Me for anything) I will respond to your (invocation). Verily! Those who scorn My worship [i.e. do not invoke Me,] they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!"

Both are from Tafsir Ibn Kathir. And you have avoided Br.Ansar's post again.

Shaykh Yasir again:

That's clearly not the case. I not only 'gave thought to it' but I posted a detailed link concerning this narration and what the scholars have said about it which refutes your claims. If you chose to ignore it, that's your own problem but then don't complain about no one answering it if you ignored the answers! Here's the link again:
http://www.sahab.net/sahab/showthrea...hreadid=301940

Here the response from Shaykhul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah:

قال شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية رحمه الله في اقتضاء الصراط المستقيم مخالفة أصحاب الجحيم ج1/ص393-397 ط. مطبعة السنة المحمدية:

(ولم يكن أحد من السلف يأتي قبر نبي أو غير نبي لأجل الدعاء عنده, ولا كان الصحابة يقصدون الدعاء عند قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم, ولا عند قبر غيره من الأنبياء, وإنما كانوا يصلون ويسلمون على النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وعلى صاحبيه, واتفق الأئمة على أنه إذا دعا بمسجد النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم لا يستقبل قبره, وتنازعوا عند السلام عليه, فقال مالك وأحمد وغيرهما يستقبل قبره ويسلم عليه, وهو الذي ذكره أصحاب الشافعي, وأظنه منصوصا عنه, وقال أبو حنيفة بل يستقبل القبلة ويسلم عليه, وهكذا في كتاب أصحابه, وقال مالك فيما ذكره إسماعيل بن إسحاق في المبسوط والقاضي عياض وغيرهما لا أرى أن يقف عند قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ويدعو ولكن يسلم ويمضي, وقال أيضا في المبسوط لا بأس لمن قدم من سفر أو خرج أن يقف عند قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فيصلي عليه ويدعو لأبي بكر وعمر, فقيل له: فإن ناسا من أهل المدينة لا يقدمون من سفر ولا يريدونه إلا يفعلون ذلك في اليوم مرة وأكثر عند القبر فيسلمون ويدعون ساعة, فقال: لم يبلغني هذا عن أحد من أهل الفقه ببلدنا ولا يصلح آخر هذه الأمة إلا ما أصلح أولها, ولم يبلغني عن أول هذه الأمة وصدرها أنهم كانوا يفعلون ذلك, ويكره إلا لمن جاء من سفر أو أراده. وقد تقدم في ذلك من الآثار عن السلف والأئمة ما يوافق هذا ويؤيده من أنهم كانوا إنما يستحبون عند قبره ما هو من جنس الدعاء والتحية كالصلاة والسلام, ويكرهون قصده للدعاء والوقوف عنده للدعاء, ومن يرخص منهم في شيء من ذلك فإنه يرخص فيما إذا سلم عليه ثم أراد الدعاء أن يدعو مستقبل القبلة إما مستدبر القبر أو منحرفا عنه وهو أن يستقبل القبلة ويدعو ولا يدعو مستقبل القبر, وهكذا المنقول عن سائر الأئمة ليس في ائمة المسلمين من استحب للمار أن يستقبل قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ويدعو عنده, وهذا الذي ذكرناه عن مالك والسلف يبين حقيقة الحكاية المأثورة عنه وهي الحكاية التي ذكرها القاضي عياض عن محمد بن حميد قال: ناظر أبو جعفر أمير المؤمنين مالكاً في مسجد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال له مالك: يا أمير المؤمنين لا ترفع صوتك في هذا المسجد فإن الله تعالى أدب قوما فقال (لا ترفعوا أصواتكم فوق صوت النبي) الآية ومدح قوما فقال (إن الذين يغضون أصواتهم عند رسول الله) وذم قوما فقال (إن الذن ينادونك من وراء الحجرات أكثرهم لا يعقلون) الآية وإن حرمته ميتا كحرمته حيا فاستكان لها أبو جعفر وقال: يا أبا عبد الله أستقبل القبلة وأدعو أم أستقبل رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم؟ فقال: ولِمَ تصرف وجهك عنه وهو وسيلتك ووسيلة أبيك آدم إلى يوم القيامة, بل استقبله واستشفع به فيشفعه الله فيك, قال الله تعالى (ولو أنهم ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله) الآية فهذه الحكاية على هذا الوجه إما أن تكون ضعيفة أو مغيرة, وإما أن تفسَّر بما يوافق مذهبه, إذ قد يُفهم منها ما هو خلاف مذهبه المعروف, بنقل الثقات من أصحابه, فانه لا يختلف مذهبه أنه لا يستقبل القبر عند الدعاء, وقد نص على أنه لا يقف عند الدعاء مطلقا, وذكر طائفة من أصحابه أنه يدنو من القبر ويسلم على النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ثم يدعو مستقبل القبلة ويوليه ظهره, وقيل لا يوليه ظهره فاتفقوا في استقبال القبلة, وتنازعوا في تولية القبر ظهره وقت الدعاء, ويشبه والله أعلم أن يكون مالك رحمه الله سئل عن استقبال القبر عند السلام, وهو يسمي ذلك دعاء, فإنه قد كان من فقهاء العراق من يرى أنه عند السلام عليه يستقبل القبلة أيضا, ومالك يرى استقبال القبر في هذه الحال, كما تقدم وكما قال في رواية ابن وهب عنه, إذا سلم على النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يقف ووجهه إلى القبر لا إلى القبلة, ويدنو ويسلم ويدعو, ولا يمس القبر بيده, وقد تقدم قوله إنه يصلي عليه ويدعو له, ومعلوم أن الصلاة عليه والدعا