Not harmfull? is silly Billy going to pass his exams or fail? Is Mr. Examiner going to pass him?

Wasalaam alaikum to believers & seekers

Hi snakelegs.


If you've seen most of the acts of shirk which have taken place in history, most have only taken place as acts of 'disliked activities' - yet if one was to persist in this, then many generations later this is likely to turn into an innovation in the religion, and from innovations come other aspects which usually lead to shirk (associating partners with God in worship.)


So we have to turn away from the disliked to save the future generations from any deception the shaytaan (satan) may cause. Just try to remember this famous saying; give shaytaan an inch, and he'll be a ruler.


He just wants us to do one act of innovation per generation, and then the future generations are likely to increase in the innovations, and then usually fall into shirk. As you can see in the story of Prophet Noah, the story of the Christians, and even people from among the Muslims who have fallen into similar. And Allaah knows best.




Peace.

This is where I think your getting. If a person were to say in supplication: "O Allah! I ask you alone by Your noble Prophet! (or the name of other righteous persons)".

Br Abuz Zubair of IA had written about this:

5) To call upon Allah alone, asking Him by His Prophet is a valid difference of opinion in Fiqh where none is censured. For example: O Allah! I ask you alone by Your noble Prophet!

This type of tawassul does not entail Shirk by agreement, but it is, nevertheless, a bida'i tawassul, over which the scholars have differed.

Bida’i tawassul is, as al-‘Allama Hasan al-Shatti al-Dimashqi al-Hanbali says while commenting on Matalib Ulin-Nuha, quoting Ibn ‘al-Imad al-Hanbali: ‘Tawassul through the righteous is for one to say: O Allah! I make tawassul to you through your Prophet Muhammad SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam, or someone else, that you fulfil my need’

Take note, that the tawassul referred to here involves directly calling upon Allah and addressing Him alone, by the right of His creation. It does not involve calling upon anyone other than Allah, for that will be dealt with later on.

This type of Tawassul is differed over amongst the scholars, including the Hanbalis.

Some scholars, including Ibn Qudama allow this type of Tawassul, while other scholars, such as Ibn Taymiyya do not allow it.

[...]

And as I quoted before, great Scholars like Imam Abu Hanifa detested this practice. He said:

‘It is detested for the supplicator to say, `I ask You by the right of so and so,' or,`By the right of Your Prophets and Messengers, and by the right of the Sacred House and the Sacred Sanctuary."

Sharhul-'Aqeedatut-Tahaawiyyah (p.234) and Ithaafus-Saadaatul Mustaqeem (2/285) and Sharhul Fiqhil-Akbar (p. 198) of al-Qaaree.
In the above scenario, the supplication is being made to Allaah alone and not the Prophet or saints, therefore it is not shirk.

But when one starts to believe that he can ask/call out to other than Allaah whilst at the same time believing that Allaah is the one who will answer his supplication and the one he is calling out to is nothing more than an intermediary, it is still shirk. This is because the Arabs of the time of ignorance believed that Allaah was the Lord, but they commited association in worship, i.e. they took their idols as intercessors (and these idols were statues of former righteous people) thus they commited polythiesm.

This is confirmed in the Qur'an:

And they worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do you inform Allah of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!
[10:18]

Similarly, Allah said of the pagans: ‘Most of them do not believe in Allah, except that they associate partners unto Him’

al-Tabari says in his tafseer: Their belief in Allah is their saying: Allah is our Creator, our Provider, who gives us death and gives us life; while their Shirk is to attribute partners unto Allah in His worship and invocation.

Lastly, Ibn al-Qayyim says in Madarij al-Salikin (1/332):

“From the forms (of Shirk): Requesting the dead for needs, seeking their aid and turning to them.

This is the basis for Shirk in the world. This is because the actions of the dead have ceased. He is not able to harm or benefit himself, let alone the one who seeks his aid, or asks him to fulfil his need, or asks him to intercede for him with Allah, for this is from his ignorance with respect to the intercessor and the one interceded for, as has preceded. This is because he (the intercessor) is not able to intercede for him with Allah, except with His permission. Allah did not make his ‘seeking aid’ and petitioning, a cause for Allah’s permission to be granted. The only cause that grants Allah’s permission (for intercession) is the perfection of Tawheed. Yet, this Mushrik comes along, with a cause that only prevents Allah’s permission (for intercession)!”

I think you'll get more clarification in these posts:
http://www.islamicboard.com/691705-post4.html (All about Istighatha, Istishfa', and Tawassul, etc...)
http://www.islamicboard.com/691707-post5.html (All about Istighatha, Istishfa', and Tawassul, etc...)
http://www.islamicboard.com/691708-post6.html (All about Istighatha, Istishfa', and Tawassul, etc...)

I know your origninal question was a bit different to this, but I figured that if you read all the possibilities, it might be more clearer to you. Besides, this isn't offtopic Ask if you have any more questions

salaam

i have always been like weary off this saint and sufism thin, because its just all dodgy.

and if your gona ask, ask directly from Allah (swt)

"you alone we worship, YOU ALONE WE ASK FOR HELP" - surah fatiha, we recite it everyday remem

and clearly Allah (swt) says in surah ghafir " call upon me and i will respond to you, and the arrogant ones who dont call upon me, will go to hell" simple!

there are loads of ayahs about it, Allah (swt) is the creator, we should ask directly to him, without a creation!

there are only like 3 accepted ways of doin tawassul, calling upon Allah (swt) by his 99 namess, i.e- in surah al araaf it says "Allah has the most beatufill names so call upon him by them"

and a hadiths in Abu Dawud, Nisaai....

Once, the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) saw a man saying in his Tashahhud: ‘I ask You by virtue of the fact that all praise belongs to You, none has the right to be worshiped but You Alone, having no partner. The Great Bestower of all blessings, O Originator of the Heavens and the Earth. O Possessor of Majesty and Honor, O Ever-Living, O Sustainer and Protector of all that exists. Indeed, I ask You for Paradise, and I seek Your Refuge from the Fire.” So the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) said to his companions:“Do you know what he has suplicatted with?” They said: “Allah and His Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) know best.” He said: “By Him in Whose Hand is my soul, he has supplicated to Allah by His Great Name, if He is called upon by them, He responds and if He is asked by it, He gives.”

Also tawassul can be done by your own goods as was evident from the people trapped in the cave and they mentioned their good deeds and asked Allah (swt) to open up the trapped cave and it did, and also in surah al imran

“Our Lord! We have believed in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger; so write us down among those who bear witness (to the truth i.e. none has the right to be worshiped except Allah).”

and again

“Those who say: ‘Our Lord! We have Indeed, believed, so forgive us our sins and save us from the punishment of the Fire’”

so by mentionin your good deeds you can do tawussal

anotther way which is by a good person who is ALIVE!!!

this is a bit like when you say to someone, oh pray for me, or remember me in your duas.

a hadiths is in Bukhari bout it aswell...

Anas Ibn Malik (radhi allahu anhu) narrates from Umar Ibn Khattab (radhi allahu anhu) that when the people suffered from drought he used to ask al-Abbas Ibn Mutallib (radhi allahu anhu) to pray for rain for them. He used to say: “O Allah we used to request our Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) to supplicate to You for rain, and You would bless us with rain. Now, we ask the uncle of our Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) to supplicate to You, so grant us rain.”


so the three ways of callin Allah (swt) by his beautifull names, mentionin your good deeds and by a good person whos alive, are the ways to do tawussul!

but most of scholars agree that the bestest way is by askin directly from Allah (swt)!!!

anyone askin the dead or somethin is wrong and should jump off a cliff

next

miracles of the saints? erm erm erm

Allah (swt) knows best, but personally i do highly doubt some of the miracles,im not mentionin names but i do doubt the miracles i.e - someone turnin into a bird and rescuin someone, and someone standin in water for 40 years and bein spoke to by Allah (swt) and then when asked what he wants replyin, he wants to be Ali (ra), then Allah (swt) sayin " Ali (ra) has already been created but il give you his scent" lol that just doesnt get into my heart because if Allah (swt) asked me and im sure all of us "what do you want" we would say "jannah" direct innit, and also when Hadhrat Musa (alayhi salam) wanted to see Allah (swt) he passed away because of the amount of noor, but these people manage to see Allah (swt) and speak with him directly and stuff, they can do somethin which a Prophet (alayhi salam) hasnt done, thats certainly dodgy and doubtin for manz

also there are many other stories, but Allah hu Alim, like many times it may just be a lie attributed to the person, or it may be true, anywhoo it shouldnt make a difference because islam is stil great and will remain great, it dont need miracles to show that, Allah (swt) has already shown that islam is great!

may Allah (swt) guide us and make us better muslims and forgive us

thanks to all your replies, i think i understand this now.
personally, i agree - god needs no middlemen, why would he?
anyway, i'm glad i asked cuz i learned something about the reasoning behind this ruling about tawassul. (i always like to know the reasoning).

Talk like this scares me because it can lead one down a slippery slope. This is exactly how Catholics justify kneeling in front of statues of the saints....they say that they are merely going to God through the saint because the saint is already in heaven and can put a good word in for them, so to speak.

God doesn't need anything. God is Almighty and All Powerful. He needs no one to put in a good word to make your chances better because He Sees All Things and knows all about what you have done and what your intentions are, etc. He knows more about you than you do.

I think when we start putting things between us and Him it will lead to other things. I mean don't we have enough that comes between us and him?? Money, pride, lust, etc. It's all I can personally do to fight off these things I don't need to add more fuel to the fire.

It just makes me sad to see these women and men crying at the gates of these tombs and kissing the metal thinking it will get them to heaven.

You kind of see that in Hajj too though don't you? People craving to touch the Kaba.................what's that all about? It's a object...it's not Allah. Sure it is a holy place but why crowd around just to touch it unless it's just for the sake of history and makes you feel good that you've touched something that Abraham has touched. (though the amount of times it's been redone the chances of your touching a spot that he touched are pretty slim to none I would think, right?)

Maybe I'm too confused right now but all I know is I like my old Islam where I put my head to the ground and I am alone in front of my Creator just Him and me and I am humbled beyond humbled and NO ONE ELSE is there. just us.

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ies-devil.html

Simply the best book on the subject. I advice you to take the time out to read it.

Off-topic and unecessary posts deleted. Please stay on topic inshaAllah.

Read the following articles, inshaAllah:

Is it permissible to call upon a dead wali (“saint”) or Hazrat ‘Ali?

Praying at graves and the conditions of intercession

Ruling on seeking blessing from righteous people

Seeking help from anyone other than Allaah is shirk

Miracles of the pious (karâmât) are real but do not include knowing the Unseen

Karâmât are not a proof of exceptional piety

And also this short article:

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=10289&ln=eng

http://www.islamicboard.com/770258-post12.html (Intercession by Wali ullah)