assalam alaykum

Im confused. Are there really such things as "saints" in Islam? I was reading about a place in Alexandria, Egypt where a saint is buried underneath a mosque there. (at least I think it's under a mosque). Anyways, I also watched a program about Iran last week and they showed a lot of people going to various sites there where saints are buried and kissing the tombs, etc.

What's up with that? One of the things that attracted me to Islam was the fact that they don't have statues and like a million saints, etc. to pray to like I did when I was Catholic. The simplicity of praying to one God, Allah was the main draw for me so when I see stuff like this it is depressing and confusing.

help.

We don't have saints in Islam, thats a given.

Statues are forbidden and we are only allowed to worship ALLAH, no one else!

But what is a wali?

What is a Wali?

this is what confused me....
i know that muslims do not worship saints or have statues. but some do recognize saints and use them as wasila (?) though this is not approved of by orthodox muslims, and as some have mentioned, is considered shirk.

One cannot know what Tawheed is, if he first does not know what shirk is. Here is a link to an excellent book:

Kitab at-Tawheed of Shayk Muhammad ibn AbdulWahhab
http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/creed/...ahab/index.htm

When you read this book you'll notice how little the author speaks from himself. You’ll notice that it is just verses of Qur’an and Ahadith with benefits that are derived from them.

No.

But the believers who have Imaan (strong faith) and Taqwa (Fear of Allaah) are the Awliya of Allaah, or the Allies of Allaah.

62. No doubt! Verily, the Auliyâ' of Allâh [i.e. those who believe in the Oneness of Allâh and fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which he has forbidden), and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)], no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve,
63. Those who believed (in the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism), and used to fear Allâh much (by abstaining from evil deeds and sins and by doing righteous deeds).
64. For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present world (i.e. righteous dream seen by the person himself or shown to others), and in the Hereafter. No change can there be in the Words of Allâh, this is indeed the supreme success.

A muslim is an Awliya of Allaah if he satisfies the above conditions and if he is not an innovator and he is a follower of the Sunnah of the Messenger as the Messenger and his Sunnah is the criterion between the Allies of Allaah and the Allies of the Devil.

Shaykh Al Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah has written an entire book on this subject which you can read here (and it's really the best book on this subject, it'll clarify everything for you Insha'Allaah):

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ies-devil.html

The Awliya of Allaah are not a special class of people who have hidden knowledge as some believe. Every muslim is a Wali' of Allaah, and his level of closeness to Allaah depends on how much worship he does, how close he is to the sunnah etc. The book explains this entire concept very clearly.

This is clearly wrong and it's condemned in the religion, and sadly it occurs far and wide. The Messenger has forbidden us from raising graves and taking graves (even his own) as places of worship and he has commanded us to level the graves. Following are clear and explict narrations regarding the forbiddence of taking graves as places of worship:

It is narrated in Muslim that:

Abu'l-Hayyaj al-Asadi told that 'Ali (b. Abu Talib) said to him:

Should I not send you on the same mission as Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent me? Do not leave an image without obliterating it, or a high grave without levelling it. This hadith has been reported by Habib with the same chain of transmitters and he said: (Do not leave) a picture without obliterating it.

Al-Bukhari and Muslim report that `Aa`ishah said:

"When the Messenger of Allah was close to death, he covered his face with a cloth, and then when it became difficult for him to breathe, he uncovered his face and said:

"May Allah curse the Jews and Christians who took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship - do not imitate them."

And, (added `Aa`ishah,) "if it had not been for this, his grave might have been raised above ground, but it was feared that it would be taken as a place of worship."

Muslim narrates on the authority of Jundub Ibn `Abdillah (ra) that he said: "I heard the Prophet say five days before his death:

"Verily, I bear witness before Allah that I have taken none of you as my Khaleel,2 for truly, Allah has taken me as His Khaleel, just as He took Ibraheem (as ) as a Khaleel. If I were to take any man from my Ummah as a khaleel, it would be Abu Bakr. Your predecessors used to take their Prophets' graves as places of worship, so do not make graves into places of worship for I have forbidden you to do this."

It is narrated by Ahmad, with a good chain on the authority of Ibn Mas'ood (ra), in a narration traced back to the Prophet himself, the following:

"Verily, the most wicked of people are those who, when the Hour overtakes them, are still alive, and those who take graves as places of worship." (Also Narrated by Abu Hatim in his Saheeh)

The Messenger has even forbidden muslims from travelling for the sake worship, except to three places:

"Do not saddle up your riding beasts, except to three mosques: "The Sacred Mosque (in Makkah), this my mosque and Al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem)." (Bukahri, Muslim)

The Messenger has blocked all the means to shirk and he has put great efforts to safe guard tawheed. But some muslims have deviated and gone down the road that you see, imitating the Jews and the Christians as the Messenger foretold would happen, and you yourself are a witness to this.

The way shirk came into this world was by people exaggerating the status of righteous people at the time of Nuh a.s. The 5 names of idols mentioned in Surah Nuh in the Qur'an were righteous people. Once they died, people built statues and started using these statues to get close to Allaah, using them as intercessors. This is exactly what occurs. The people who go and call out to the dead in the graves claim they are using them as intercessors, but Allaah has made it clear that that is the very essence of polythiesm. Surah Yunus:

18: And they worship besides Allâh things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allâh." Say: "Do you inform Allâh of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!

I agree with you sister. That's the beauty of Islaam, that we simply pray to one God. This is the pure message of Islam that the Prophet Muhammad, and every other Prophet invited to. It is however, very sad and unfortunate, that some people are misleading Muslims into going to graves and asking the person in the grave to fullfill needs. And at times the grave is empty and the people running the show are making money off of the ignorance of the muslims. Don't let this matter cause a rift in your heart, Islaam is pure, strict, and uncompromisable monothiesm. May Allaah guide the muslims who have fallen in this evil of taking graves as places of worship.

If you have any questions at all, please ask

It seems it's a vice versa thing

abdul wahab he taught for more than 10 years with that same book, that even his student got bored lol

Without getting into sectarianism, its quite wierd what the sufis have in regards to their belief of saints. Their concept of saints is quite akin to the catholic/christian concept, where they believe it is not only permissible, but recommended to go to these dead 'saints' and ask them to fullfill needs. I have heard this from their own scholars.

Whilst the correct Islamic concept of a Wali is different and it is briefly explained in my previous post, and for an in depth look at it, you can refer to the book I linked to in the same post.

You see, no muslim would ever say he is worshipping other than Allaah. But then you will see some of those who profess Islaam, believing it to be permissable to call out to other than Allaah and to seek help from other than Allaah which is in direct contradiction to the core message of Islaam. You will find them at these graves making supplication to other than Allaah whilst the Messenger has said 'Supplication is worship', and they will be directing their worship to other then Allaah when worship is to be directed to Him only. And I have seen this happen with my own eyes, people prostrating to graves and such.

Yeah. You can't appreciate black, if you've never seen white. You can't appreciate Tawheed if you don't know the futility of shirk.

thanks syilla and MM. i don't know about doodlebug, but i think i've got it clear now about saints and walis. some sufis call their saints by the title of "auliya" i think that's what confused me.
btw, i never heard of any muslims anywhere using statues! that's a whole new one for me. i thought all muslims were agreed on statues being strictly forbidden.
doodlebug, please forgive me for going somewhat off topic with your thread.

But if someone were to put a chair in front of them with the same purpose behind it, whats the difference? It's not what the tangible object is, it could be a tree, the sun, a grave, or the person in the grave, but if the purpose and reasoning behind it is the same, then it doesn't really matter if its a statue or something else since it is being worshipped besides Allaah.

forgive me a little more, doodlebug, but my post crossed with this one.
thanks for your reply MM.
i think shirk is a much broader concept in islam than simply making a partner for god - would you agree? like some muslims consider jews to be practicing shirk even tho they are also strict monotheists - because they follow the teachings of their scriptures.
just noticed your most recent post -yes, i agree - if they are worshipping it, it doesn't matter whether its an actual statue, chair, money, grave etc.

I'm confused. Some one just neg repped my post saying we do have saints...

What saints?! How come I've never heard about this?

its tru bro Allah takes all those who are pious as his friends may Allah make us of them!

Ameen

People get mixed up with the issue of wali and saint. Someone who is a wali of Allaah is someone who is a friend of Allaah, i.e. Prophet Ibrahim was a wali of Allaah and he was His khaleel - close friend.


The area where people get confused is where they say that someone is a close friend of Allaah, therefore we can ask him to 'intercede on our behalf' - just like christians do to their 'saints' because these people were pious.


Infact, this is explained by the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) before he was about to pass away:

Muslim narrates on the authority of Jundub Ibn `Abdillah (radhiAllahu anhu) that he said: "I heard the Prophet (peace be upon him) say five days before his death: "Verily, I bear witness before Allah (swt ) that I have taken none of you as my Khaleel,2 for truly, Allah (swt ) has taken me as His Khaleel, just as He took Ibraheem (as ) as a Khaleel. If I were to take any man from my Ummah as a khaleel, it would be Abu Bakr. Your predecessors used to take their Prophets' graves as places of worship, so do not make graves into places of worship for I have forbidden you to do this."

It is authentically reported on the authority of `Aa`ishah that Um Salamah (May Allah be pleased with them both) told the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) about a church she had seen in Abyssinia in which there were pictures. The Prophet said: "Those people, when a righteous member of their group or a pious slave (of Allah swt ) dies, they build a mosque over his grave and make images therein; by so doing, they combine two evils: (i) The evil of the graves and (ii) the evil of images." 1

And the Messenger of Allaah spoke the truth when he said:

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You would tread the same path as was trodden by those before you inch by inch and step by step so much so that if they had entered into the hole of the lizard, you would follow them in this also. We said: Allah's Messenger, do you mean Jews and Christians (by your words) "those before you"? He said: Who else (than those two religious groups)? -Sahih Muslim, Hadith 6448

These links are also beneficial inshaa Allaah:

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...hen-allah.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/762140-post33.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...er-graves.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...-nuh-noah.html (Prophet Nuh (Noah))



And Allaah knows best.